SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[soundjata]

ok pressing end turn

 

[Doshin]

There is a Cuirassier fortified in Toledo, btw.

 

[soundjata]

^ Exactly and it's going to defend the settling of Copper Clam.

Pillage is good. Aachen delivers

Spoiler :

Stopping now for the night. Tomorrow is a public holiday so I hope to make some progress.

Main Question for this turn is: Do we want to change civics? Mercantilism is good but do we stay in Caste? Pacifism? Slavery can speed up our whale galley now but the forts are not ready yet. The galley can be built with hammers in 2 turns anyways.

Second question (for Doshin especially ) please tell me once more what you want me to do in Nuremberg 10 units vs. the general is it so?

Otherwise research is cruising well: currently 1618 bpt with 2000 overflow banked. 2173 gold in reserve.
Kossin can we speed up the research plan by a notch?

I'm happy with the city micro as it is, feel free to comment. Some workers and some cuirs haven't move yet.

Save uploaded.

 

[kossin]

Unless there are objections, I'd like to do the Mercantilism switch now before re-evaluating research. The banked beakers are expected (and needed) to finish Sci. Method in 1 turn and/or Biology in 1~2.

With 2xGS bulbs I had an option which finished on T151. We'have plenty of research for that one at the moment. If we get 1 GM however, then I think we can still make it by T151.

A single GS (GM) bulb cannot be sped up to T151, we'd need to average 2400 (2500) bpt... yea, not happening.

The no-bulb option would need an average 2060 bpt to finish on T152. Not happening either.

Our best bet is 2x bulb for a T151 Medicine.

 

[Doshin]

Second question (for Doshin especially ) please tell me once more what you want me to do in Nuremberg 10 units vs. the general is it so?

We need 10 units in the city:

Cuirassier 3 = stay
Cuirassier 45 = stay
Cuirassier 16 = stay

Cuirassier 24 = LEAVE

Cuirassier 32 = stay
Cuirassier 30 = stay
Cuirassier 46 = stay

HArcher 6 = stay

Cuirassier 31 = MOVE
Cuirassier 44 = MOVE
Cuirassier 39 = MOVE​

Moving in:

Spoiler :

Moving out:

Spoiler :

When all 10 units are in the city, attach the Great General to the Horse Archer. 20XP will be spread across these 10 units:

Spoiler :

Upgrade the Horse Archer 6. It is free, thanks to the attached Great General.

Move the Angry Nurse into the city.

Units that won't fully heal by T147 should receive a promotion, so they are healthy (or as healthy as possible) when we declare against Alex. The 20XP from the Great General is spread around the troops, and all of the above need 1XP or 2XP to promote.

----

After you have done this, you can move whatever units you want back into or out of Nuremberg.

The important thing is that we are able to declare against Alex on T147, with as many healthy troops as possible. So think carefully about troop movement, positioning, and healing elsewhere. I can give more feedback if you'd like, but it would be easier to give after you've made the above moves. We have a lot of Cuirassiers.

 

[Doshin]

Unless there are objections, I'd like to do the Mercantilism switch now before re-evaluating research. The banked beakers are expected (and needed) to finish Sci. Method in 1 turn and/or Biology in 1~2.

I'm fine to switch and then assess. I'd also prefer to stay in Caste > Slavery.

One problem with research is that we will run out of bulbable techs before Case Depart is done:

T146: Economics done. Constantinople GP done. Switch to Corporation or Chemistry?
T147: Corporation or Chemistry done. Research...?
T148: Case Depart GP done.​

Should we try to generate the Case Depart GP on T147? The difficulty is not knowing what GPs will be available for our Golden Age.

@soundjata

No micro suggestions from me, as things seem good and it is not the EOT. However, do make sure that you move our Great Artist and Great Scientist:

Spoiler :

 

[kossin]

Turn - Work on tech (completes IBT)
T145 Economics
T146 Corporation (Constantinople possible GM bulb)
T147 Chemistry (Constantinople possible GS bulb)
T148 Scientific Method (Case Départ possible GS bulb)
T149 Biology
T150 Biology or Liberalism
T151 Liberalism or slingshot Medicine
T152 slingshot Medicine or already done

We don't need to rush CD

Rule is the same, let's try to maximize beakers this turn. 1900 or so to be safe if we get GPs that won't allow us to bulb. [GA is very bad, anything else we can work with to replace the current GS for triggering the last golden age]

T151 might be possible with 1xGS bulb, but we'd have to do a lot to get there.

 

[Folket]

Did we not raze Aachen?

 

[Folket]

I still think we should settle the city that will take us to the barb city at once. We still do not know which AI script the ironclad is using.

 

[soundjata]

@ Folket:
- Aachen was not razed according to the plan then. Now we are planning to give it back to HC and raze it a few turns before the game ends.
- Ironclad city: I agree. Keep in mind we will be stuck with this city though (no give away). It costs us an executive for 2 turns late game (not a problem in my current plan)

Attached the latest version of the spreading plan (sheet 2)
> Change starting city to Aksum
> Removed Aachen (can be razed)
> Added Samsun (forgot it last plan)

Result is still 11 turns after Sushi. I am pretty sure this is a minimum!
If we can get rid of Barb corner, it goes down to 10 turns.
I did not check the city sizes / whip feasibility, as I assumed we'll have plenty of gold for rush buying.

 

[soundjata]

Need more votes on the civics:
Change this turn to Mercantilism
Keep Pacifism (cheapest religion civics currently, no useful alternative)

I'll release a new save later today (coffee time in North America) so that Kossin can update the research plan. We're not full throttle yet and could build about 180 science

 

[Doshin]

Gotta go now (1 minute!) but it just occurred to me that I think we can raze the Whale city if it never exceeds size 1. It'd be easy to test that.

 

[kossin]

There are some weird AI scripts where the Ironclad will:

...not bombard a city, but attack a workboat;
...never move at all.

For example, assigning the Ironclad as "worker" will make it not move ever.

@soundjata
Research plan matters little now, we need to see what are the GP types mainly because that changes everything. Just get as much as possible! I can still do it but the old numbers are still good targets. Aim for the highest number to be safe.

For civics, we do have a choice between Pacifism, Theology and Paganism.
Theology is most expensive but since we're still making units to finish this war, it has its uses.
Pacifism lets us manage more easily, but in terms of total cost I think it will be more than other choices - due to unit upkeep.
Paganism is probably cheapest but provides nothing except some saved coins. (about 12gpt less than Pacifism)

~~~

HC cities are more easily razed if we gift them to Alex/Napoleon: they will not have any culture and we could raze on the same turn with well placed HAs/Chariots/2 MP units.
The cities will have a majority of HC culture so the raze option shows up (and tested).

 

[Duckweed]

Need more votes on the civics:
Change this turn to Mercantilism
Keep Pacifism (cheapest religion civics currently, no useful alternative)

I'll release a new save later today (coffee time in North America) so that Kossin can update the research plan. We're not full throttle yet and could build about 180 science

Agree with Mercantilism switch and stay on Pacifism.

There are some city micro to be adjust. For instance, Condar can work on a windmill than the plain cottage, Madrid should work on a water tile than a 3F tile, The 2nd citizen in crib is working on a 2H tile.

Besides roading and irrigation, you could send some workers to do some prechops in previous Spanish cities.

There's a barbarian worker can be captured in Scy, you can also promote some Cuis in that area to speedup their recovery.

The beakers argument is fine, but the city is commerce negative overall, and if we settle now the Ironclad will start bombarding the 45% defense offered by 10 + Chichen Itza.

The beaker gain vs maintenance loss is almost equal. The city can yield 6C(trade routes)+4C(city center)+6B(from citizen) = 16 C, the maintenance fee is about 10C(city) + 5C (civic). It's good to settle immediately.

 

[soundjata]

There are some weird AI scripts where the Ironclad will:

...not bombard a city, but attack a workboat;
...never move at all.

For example, assigning the Ironclad as "worker" will make it not move ever.

In this case we are screwed aren't we?

@soundjata
Research plan matters little now, we need to see what are the GP types mainly because that changes everything. Just get as much as possible! I can still do it but the old numbers are still good targets. Aim for the highest number to be safe.
Then I'll build research instead of wealth this turn.

For civics, we do have a choice between Pacifism, Theology and Paganism.
Theology is most expensive but since we're still making units to finish this war, it has its uses.
Pacifism lets us manage more easily, but in terms of total cost I think it will be more than other choices - due to unit upkeep. It's cheaper by quite some margin currently.
Paganism is probably cheapest but provides nothing except some saved coins. (about 12gpt less than Pacifism)
Nope. Paganism is 210 GPT to 178 GPT for Pacifism.

~~~

HC cities are more easily razed if we gift them to Alex/Napoleon: they will not have any culture and we could raze on the same turn with well placed HAs/Chariots/2 MP units.
The cities will have a majority of HC culture so the raze option shows up (and tested).

Then we should give all to Nappy on the turn we DOW him

 

[soundjata]

Gotta go now (1 minute!) but it just occurred to me that I think we can raze the Whale city if it never exceeds size 1. It'd be easy to test that.

Fine but avoiding the spread in whale city is not enough to gain a turn.

 

[kossin]

If there's a strange AI script, we may need Astronomy to get through the Ironclad.

Paganism is +32 civic upkeep, but -42 for military units compared to Pacifism. So 10 gpt cheaper, and inflation is ~17% so a net gain of ~12gpt.

 

[Doshin]

I don't think the Ironclad will have received an extraordinary script, since this makes the SP corporations much more powerful than the Sushi, and in a way that cannot be predicted or observed through good play.

I'm happy to settle the Whale City now. Run a Scientist.

----

As I said, I am 99% sure that cities that never grow beyond size 1 are automatically razed, no matter what their culture. So we won't need to spread Sushi to the Whale city.

More generally:

Spoiler :

Some colours are wrong in the West because I changed the scheme as I went (was first doing 3-4-5-6+ but it looked like a mess). The 2 top left blue should be green.

The more cities we can get rid and raze in the west, the better. The logic is simple: with 5 executives maximum at a time, it takes 1 more turn for each 5 cities.

I am thinking about settling some "bump" cities, for helping Executives to move, e.g.

1. We can settle a city 3S1E of Golden Sands.
2. Executive 1 (produced by GS) moves 2SE of GS.
3. Executive 2 (produced by SH) moves 3NE of SH.

We then gift a city to HC. Closed borders move:

1. Executive 1 moved 3S2W of Cornish Cow
2. Executive 2 moved 1NW of Rice Pudding

I think this would be most useful for the East

(1) Aksum ----> Lalibela

(2) Aksum ----> DH
(2) Lalibela ---> Yeha

(3) DH ----> BS
(3) Yeha ----> Constantinople

(4) BS ----> Golden Sands
(4) Co ----> Sea Horse

(5) GS ----> Cornish Cow
(6) SH ----> Rice Pudding

(7) RP ----> CD​

Theoretically, we could use this to move Executives 1–2 extra spaces anywhere on the map. Fringe cities, like Cornish Cow, can easily produce Settlers.

It seems like it could also help:

Mycenian
Fish Ships
SW Crab (probably not this)

Bump cities would need to be razed on the turn before they reach size 2.

 

[Doshin]

Paganism is +32 civic upkeep, but -42 for military units compared to Pacifism. So 10 gpt cheaper, and inflation is ~17% so a net gain of ~12gpt.

I'm pretty sure this will be a net loss. Constantinople must starve 1-pop to reach 1000GPP. Case Départ (@ 855/1000 now) needs to run 7 more Specialists across the next three turns:

Pacifism:

((12*3) + 42) * 4.5 = +351 = 1206/1200GPP

Paganism

((19 *3) + 42) * 3.5 = + 346 = 1201/1200GPP​

The capital won't starve, but consider that a single Plains Village in the capital is worth almost 12GPT in the capital, and that we have to stop working 7 of these tiles.

So Pacifism wins for me.

 

[soundjata]

Agree with Mercantilism switch and stay on Pacifism.

There are some city micro to be adjust. For instance, Condar can work on a windmill than the plain cottage, Madrid should work on a water tile than a 3F tile, The 2nd citizen in crib is working on a 2H tile.
Yes, this is to speed up the galley. Crib will work 2x 2H tiles.
Besides roading and irrigation, you could send some workers to do some prechops in previous Spanish cities.

There's a barbarian worker can be captured in Scy, you can also promote some Cuis in that area to speedup their recovery.



The beaker gain vs maintenance loss is almost equal. The city can yield 6C(trade routes)+4C(city center)+6B(from citizen) = 16 C, the maintenance fee is about 10C(city) + 5C (civic). It's good to settle immediately.

OK for the rest.