Dhoomstriker
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SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption
- Thread starter AlanH
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Mitchum
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Really? I've never seen this before. Did this happen in a test game where the AI build the Oracle starting on T0? If that does happen, it will likely complete before we even start it or no matter where we settle, right?
Helper cities make sense when you want another city to grow the capital's cottages. I doubt we'll be building any in the capital or if we do (maybe on the FP), it won't be done for a long time.
Like ZPV, I'm a bit worried about using our second settler on such a city... It's possible that said city has decent resources in the fog that we cannot see. If not, that city will be a leech...
???
We are playing Immortal right...
By default, the AI should start with Settler, 3 defensive units (archers?), 1 scout, and 1 worker.
Are you suggested that the game maker is likely to have deleted the AI workers??
They also grow 15% faster than we do, and produce (non-wonders) 20% faster than we do.
It seems to me that if an AI roles Oracle as a first build, we are virtually garanteed NOT to get it, unless he has no hammer squares at all. I dont think my scenario above was anywhere near worst case.
We are playing Immortal right...
By default, the AI should start with Settler, 3 defensive units (archers?), 1 scout, and 1 worker.
Are you suggested that the game maker is likely to have deleted the AI workers??
They also grow 15% faster than we do, and produce (non-wonders) 20% faster than we do.
It seems to me that if an AI roles Oracle as a first build, we are virtually garanteed NOT to get it, unless he has no hammer squares at all. I dont think my scenario above was anywhere near worst case.
Admittedly, I like cottages more than most...
As for the test game building Oracle, no I have not seen it, but this is a specific test game with a specific set of AI... I dont have a feel for what the rules are for how an AI chooses what to build, and how much that is influenced by city squares/resources/specific AI.
As for the test game building Oracle, no I have not seen it, but this is a specific test game with a specific set of AI... I dont have a feel for what the rules are for how an AI chooses what to build, and how much that is influenced by city squares/resources/specific AI.
Dhoomstriker
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Hmmm, yes, what you said sounds right. No, I do not think that kcd_swede would have deleted AI Workers and what I wrote was wrong in that the AIs really will start with a Worker each.
AIs starting by building The Oracle?
Well, the nice thing about New Random Seed on Reload is that we can get an infinite amount of possibilities from a single test game.
It would be nice to ascertain that it is possible (or at least statistically possible) for an AI to select ANY Wonder on Turn 0, as well as selecting The Oracle. It should just be a matter of ending the turn in the test game, opening up the World Builder, then checking what every AI built... repeat the process a few times.
I have read that an AI is likely (or maybe hard-coded?) to only start on certain Wonders with a single City, such as Stonehenge or The Great Wall, and will need a second City before starting to build a Wonder like The Oracle.
Seraiel
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Warrior NE allows us to scout the most eastern part of the map and then continue westwards. If we move west directly, we'll not know if there is any resource in the named area, that would make a difference in our settling choice of the city to the north.
For settling 2S however I see no sense. Like that, we lose all those nice riverside Grasslands which actually make the city be good in Commerce. Connecting and queuing the Marble with first building a Worker and then needing to build Roads + Quarry takes a long time, and Oracle itself isn't strong enough for me to sacrifice our Capital completely for it.
I also trust Wastin's 2nd city on Marble T25 Oracle move, so that would make 3 votes already.
For settling 2S however I see no sense. Like that, we lose all those nice riverside Grasslands which actually make the city be good in Commerce. Connecting and queuing the Marble with first building a Worker and then needing to build Roads + Quarry takes a long time, and Oracle itself isn't strong enough for me to sacrifice our Capital completely for it.
I also trust Wastin's 2nd city on Marble T25 Oracle move, so that would make 3 votes already.
If the possibility depends on the AI (traits, or caracter), then a single test game is not sufficient...
IF it is write that he needs a second city, or at least a settler first, then what is realistic given a normal start....
Again, say rice and copper.
Turn one, start settler, starts farming, works 3 yield square + 2 yield (I will give him a plains hill) center square. So settler at 5 per turn. Then starting on turn 5, this increases to 7 per turn. He needs 80 hammers, and I beleive AI start with 10 free hammers, so settler on turn 12.
Lets say he can then start Oracle (maybe he needs to settle first, I have no idea...) He puts in 2H per turn whil growing in 5 turns (10H in on turn 17), and then 7H per turn for 10 more turns... Ready on turn 27!
Let make the rice into wet corn instead...NOw the settler finishes on 11, and he grows in 4 turns. He then needs 9 turns (counting overflow from settler) to complete, so finishes on turn 24.
So even if settler needs to come first, turn 25 is quite realistic for him, and that is not even a complete workcase.. Give an industrious AI marble, for example, or have the AI have a production bonus on the settler (from traits), or allow any chopping (Does the AI chop pre math? Does it chop before improoving all resources? I have no idea.)
IF it is write that he needs a second city, or at least a settler first, then what is realistic given a normal start....
Again, say rice and copper.
Turn one, start settler, starts farming, works 3 yield square + 2 yield (I will give him a plains hill) center square. So settler at 5 per turn. Then starting on turn 5, this increases to 7 per turn. He needs 80 hammers, and I beleive AI start with 10 free hammers, so settler on turn 12.
Lets say he can then start Oracle (maybe he needs to settle first, I have no idea...) He puts in 2H per turn whil growing in 5 turns (10H in on turn 17), and then 7H per turn for 10 more turns... Ready on turn 27!
Let make the rice into wet corn instead...NOw the settler finishes on 11, and he grows in 4 turns. He then needs 9 turns (counting overflow from settler) to complete, so finishes on turn 24.
So even if settler needs to come first, turn 25 is quite realistic for him, and that is not even a complete workcase.. Give an industrious AI marble, for example, or have the AI have a production bonus on the settler (from traits), or allow any chopping (Does the AI chop pre math? Does it chop before improoving all resources? I have no idea.)
Dhoomstriker
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I haven't made up my mind yet on a settling location, but, let's do a comparison between 1SE on the G Riv For and 2S on the G For:
Comparison: 1SE on the G Riv For instead of 2S on the G For:
+ Capital is on a River for the Fresh Water bonus and for 6 squares from a Levee (7 from a Dike)
+ Can work +1 G Riv square (we gain 2 in the north but lose one by settling on it)
+ Can work +1 P Riv square
+ An extra 2 Forests in our big fat cross, for a total of 10 instead of 8
+ Can improve the G Copper on Turn 1
- Misses out on being able to improve the G Pig by 5 turns
- Misses out on being able to work the Marble as an improved square, which would otherwise be our 4th improvable-from-the-start Resource square within our capital's big fat cross
- Requires us to found a second City in order to connect-up the Marble
- 3 squares are off of the edge of the map
- Ever so slightly higher Maintenance Costs for any Cities settled to the west
- May miss out on a Resource that is hidden in one of 3 fogged squares
Second City by the Marble
If we really want to settle a second City for the Marble, I would highly recommend settling in place. That way, we can settle 1E of the Marble and get both the Pig and the Corn (the Corn would be shared with the capital) within City #2's big fat cross. City #2 then is a pretty decent City, instead of a potentially junky City.
Then, we Oracle Calendar, which gives us an exceptionally strong capital (Happiness is our limiting factor and we'll blow that away by getting +2 Happiness) with Commerce from 2 Silk Resources (better than waiting for 2 G Riv Cottages to mature).
Test Game
Feel free to set up a new test game. If you want the best Leaders for Wonder-building, they are:
Ramesses II
Louis XIV
Augustus
Huayna Capac
Qin
Bismarck and Stalin are tied with each other
EDIT: It might be worth trying the following two Leaders, too:
Comparison: 1SE on the G Riv For instead of 2S on the G For:
+ Capital is on a River for the Fresh Water bonus and for 6 squares from a Levee (7 from a Dike)
+ Can work +1 G Riv square (we gain 2 in the north but lose one by settling on it)
+ Can work +1 P Riv square
+ An extra 2 Forests in our big fat cross, for a total of 10 instead of 8
+ Can improve the G Copper on Turn 1
- Misses out on being able to improve the G Pig by 5 turns
- Misses out on being able to work the Marble as an improved square, which would otherwise be our 4th improvable-from-the-start Resource square within our capital's big fat cross
- Requires us to found a second City in order to connect-up the Marble
- 3 squares are off of the edge of the map
- Ever so slightly higher Maintenance Costs for any Cities settled to the west
- May miss out on a Resource that is hidden in one of 3 fogged squares
Second City by the Marble
If we really want to settle a second City for the Marble, I would highly recommend settling in place. That way, we can settle 1E of the Marble and get both the Pig and the Corn (the Corn would be shared with the capital) within City #2's big fat cross. City #2 then is a pretty decent City, instead of a potentially junky City.
Then, we Oracle Calendar, which gives us an exceptionally strong capital (Happiness is our limiting factor and we'll blow that away by getting +2 Happiness) with Commerce from 2 Silk Resources (better than waiting for 2 G Riv Cottages to mature).
Test Game
Feel free to set up a new test game. If you want the best Leaders for Wonder-building, they are:
Ramesses II
Louis XIV
Augustus
Huayna Capac
Qin
Bismarck and Stalin are tied with each other
EDIT: It might be worth trying the following two Leaders, too:
We always talk about moving the capital, but I've never done it. It seems like another game where it might be wise.
1. we are way against the East wall
2. no commerce, not much river.
3. we will probably chop everything before bureau.
so, in other words, I wouldn't worry too much that the 1st city is not an ideal capital. I'm still expecting to find some really good surprise sites.
1. we are way against the East wall
2. no commerce, not much river.
3. we will probably chop everything before bureau.
so, in other words, I wouldn't worry too much that the 1st city is not an ideal capital. I'm still expecting to find some really good surprise sites.
I also have not made up my mind on settling location in case ya'all are just assuming I want the PH cus I did that in my test.
I like that you want to keep the 2nd city with access to food, but we also have the option of settling 1N of Marble (to share corn) in the case that we settle in the PH.
I'm still hoping for food S and W of marble. We better scout that.
LowtherCastle
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Capital location
To me it's either SIP or 2S, the only two with serious hammer production (1S is not bad). SIP is roughly twice better as an Oxford city. 2S enables us to settle City2 where we please. EDIT: SIP is +1 forest because 2S erases one. That's a strategic decision, so based on the Team Will to decide our strategy later, I suggest we also decide where to settle later. (dws)
Incidentally, I don't see settling on ph particularly advantageous for the extra hammer. We already have na worker and 2S quickly is producing as many hammers as ph and has +3c, and a bit later even more.
To me it's either SIP or 2S, the only two with serious hammer production (1S is not bad). SIP is roughly twice better as an Oxford city. 2S enables us to settle City2 where we please. EDIT: SIP is +1 forest because 2S erases one. That's a strategic decision, so based on the Team Will to decide our strategy later, I suggest we also decide where to settle later. (dws)
Incidentally, I don't see settling on ph particularly advantageous for the extra hammer. We already have na worker and 2S quickly is producing as many hammers as ph and has +3c, and a bit later even more.
Dhoomstriker
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Moving a Capital?
Didn't you move your capital last game for Espionage purposes? It's easier to do when you are Industrious, but can be done otherwise. That said, it is not likely to happen before having, say, 10 Cities, at a time when one owns a superior AI capital and when moving the Palace isn't such a burden on one's empire. So, our capital location will still have a significant impact on our early game.
As a side note, if we plan to take over an AI's empire AND move our capital to the AI's capital, it could make sense to capture the AI's capital as one of the last Cities captured; usually, I capture it relatively early on in the war and then have to whip it down to Size 2 due to Unhappiness issues. If you can eliminate the AI, then that Unhappiness issue which normally requires you to whip like crazy should disappear.
Scouting around the Marble
The Scout unit could certainly head southward, leaving the Warrior to go north-east + north for a bit, back west, and then possibly home to garrison our capital so that 15 early Hammers can be spent on another pursuit.
Settling Location
What we don't know is whether there will be other useful Resources by the Marble. There might be, and there might not be.
There also might or might not be improved Resources or other great settling locations in the fog.
People who are advocating settling 2S may be partially doing so out of a desire to keep our options open for City #2.
Can a faster start of settling on the PH For make up for the requirement of then "needing" to settle City #2 by the Marble? I quote the word "needing" as we don't HAVE to build The Oracle. But, it does seem to make a lot of sense to build it... early passive GPP for a nice early Great Prophet to settle being an extra bonus that no one has mentioned yet.
I have to admit that I am not as compelled to moving 1SE as I was when the idea was originally raised, as the slower improvement of the Pig seems to be a big compromise to gain the addition of +1 G Riv and +1 P Riv squares. If we want a nice long-term capital with Riverside squares, I feel that settling in place will be more of my preference than 1SE.
Marble City
If we can get rid of the constraint of settling on top of the Marble and can be willing to settle adjacent to it, perhaps even getting The Oracle intentionally later (say, to grab a post-Math tech with it or Failure Gold if we miss building it), then both settling in place and on the PH For look like more attractive options to me than if we settle on top of the Marble.
The Oracle Itself
I am not at all of the belief that we should go for the fastest Oracle date possible.
In fact, now that we have confirmation that the AIs have Priesthood, should we reexamine our desire to race to The Oracle?
Consider: An AI who builds The Oracle will very likely build us a Holy Shrine or else Lightbulb Theology early on and may build The Apostolic Palace early on in the game... either of those events could benefit us more than getting a "first level tech" out of The Oracle.
We could also get the tech in trade (that is, the tech that the AI grabs).
Further, do we really want a settled Great Prophet? If we'd rather focus more on getting Great Scientists, then perhaps it's not worth going after The Oracle at all?
Yes, I do like how settling in place and going after The Oracle for Calendar provides a nice synergy.
But, do we really want The Oracle? Maybe we do. If we do, does it really have to be built ASAP or can we be more open about building that Wonder much later?
Didn't you move your capital last game for Espionage purposes? It's easier to do when you are Industrious, but can be done otherwise. That said, it is not likely to happen before having, say, 10 Cities, at a time when one owns a superior AI capital and when moving the Palace isn't such a burden on one's empire. So, our capital location will still have a significant impact on our early game.
As a side note, if we plan to take over an AI's empire AND move our capital to the AI's capital, it could make sense to capture the AI's capital as one of the last Cities captured; usually, I capture it relatively early on in the war and then have to whip it down to Size 2 due to Unhappiness issues. If you can eliminate the AI, then that Unhappiness issue which normally requires you to whip like crazy should disappear.
Scouting around the Marble
The Scout unit could certainly head southward, leaving the Warrior to go north-east + north for a bit, back west, and then possibly home to garrison our capital so that 15 early Hammers can be spent on another pursuit.
Settling Location
What we don't know is whether there will be other useful Resources by the Marble. There might be, and there might not be.
There also might or might not be improved Resources or other great settling locations in the fog.
People who are advocating settling 2S may be partially doing so out of a desire to keep our options open for City #2.
Can a faster start of settling on the PH For make up for the requirement of then "needing" to settle City #2 by the Marble? I quote the word "needing" as we don't HAVE to build The Oracle. But, it does seem to make a lot of sense to build it... early passive GPP for a nice early Great Prophet to settle being an extra bonus that no one has mentioned yet.
I have to admit that I am not as compelled to moving 1SE as I was when the idea was originally raised, as the slower improvement of the Pig seems to be a big compromise to gain the addition of +1 G Riv and +1 P Riv squares. If we want a nice long-term capital with Riverside squares, I feel that settling in place will be more of my preference than 1SE.
Marble City
If we can get rid of the constraint of settling on top of the Marble and can be willing to settle adjacent to it, perhaps even getting The Oracle intentionally later (say, to grab a post-Math tech with it or Failure Gold if we miss building it), then both settling in place and on the PH For look like more attractive options to me than if we settle on top of the Marble.
The Oracle Itself
I am not at all of the belief that we should go for the fastest Oracle date possible.
In fact, now that we have confirmation that the AIs have Priesthood, should we reexamine our desire to race to The Oracle?
Consider: An AI who builds The Oracle will very likely build us a Holy Shrine or else Lightbulb Theology early on and may build The Apostolic Palace early on in the game... either of those events could benefit us more than getting a "first level tech" out of The Oracle.
We could also get the tech in trade (that is, the tech that the AI grabs).
Further, do we really want a settled Great Prophet? If we'd rather focus more on getting Great Scientists, then perhaps it's not worth going after The Oracle at all?
Yes, I do like how settling in place and going after The Oracle for Calendar provides a nice synergy.
But, do we really want The Oracle? Maybe we do. If we do, does it really have to be built ASAP or can we be more open about building that Wonder much later?
Dhoomstriker
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Using the Marble
It also strikes me as not the ideal approach to worry about connecting-up Marble AND racing to build The Oracle. What good is it to get the Marble online if we've invested several turns of production into The Oracle prior to getting the Marble connected? The Oracle can be built without Marble, but if we're going to connect-up Marble, I'd rather that the Hammers going into The Oracle use 100% Marble-enhanced Hammers. Otherwise, it's not really coming at half price anymore, is it?
It also strikes me as not the ideal approach to worry about connecting-up Marble AND racing to build The Oracle. What good is it to get the Marble online if we've invested several turns of production into The Oracle prior to getting the Marble connected? The Oracle can be built without Marble, but if we're going to connect-up Marble, I'd rather that the Hammers going into The Oracle use 100% Marble-enhanced Hammers. Otherwise, it's not really coming at half price anymore, is it?
LowtherCastle
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Dangit Dhoom. I burnt the popcorn I was microwaving reading another one of your tomes. 
Dhoomstriker
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Maybe it's time to take off your coat of forum online invisibility? 
Next time, perhaps grab your popcorn first and then sit down to read the replies, like this guy does:
Next time, perhaps grab your popcorn first and then sit down to read the replies, like this guy does:
LowtherCastle
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Got to be invisible to annoy Tachy. Anyone familiar with the train wreck called Windows 8? Where do I find my programs, fkitall. Never mind, I fingered it out.
Seraiel
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AIs don't build World Wonders afaik before having a 2nd city, so we definately got a good chance at Oracle. We saw that in the last SGOTM iirc, AIs were able to build the GW, but nobody did, and that even with us building a Settler and a Worker before completing the GW.
Moving the capital must be considered always and in general, but shouldn't influence our current decision where to settle. I'd agree with SIPing because the capital can grow larger, 1 SE is also ok and simply different, but 2S? Arguments of mine there are like the ones of lowther, simply makes no sense at all having a worker, even without I wouldn't settle there.
If we want to use the Marble, we have to settle on the Marble, building a Quarry + Roads takes way too long. Of course, building the Oracle without Marble is just as possible and we imo definately shouldn't waste a Settler on a crap location, either there are resources around the Marble, or simply forget about settling that spot.
So this leaves us with Warrior NE, SIP and proceed to T2 imo.
Captain?
Moving the capital must be considered always and in general, but shouldn't influence our current decision where to settle. I'd agree with SIPing because the capital can grow larger, 1 SE is also ok and simply different, but 2S? Arguments of mine there are like the ones of lowther, simply makes no sense at all having a worker, even without I wouldn't settle there.
If we want to use the Marble, we have to settle on the Marble, building a Quarry + Roads takes way too long. Of course, building the Oracle without Marble is just as possible and we imo definately shouldn't waste a Settler on a crap location, either there are resources around the Marble, or simply forget about settling that spot.
So this leaves us with Warrior NE, SIP and proceed to T2 imo.
Captain?
Do we know if the marble is at the extreme south row of tiles on the map? or is there a lot more map down there? It kinda looks like it.
Let's just wait for Friday when the real game comes out. That screen shot doesn't tell us everything.
I didn't even realize we were pinned against the east side until I opened the test save. I originally thought settling on the PH would get us a couple more unknown tiles.
Wake me up when the save comes out.
Let's just wait for Friday when the real game comes out. That screen shot doesn't tell us everything.
I didn't even realize we were pinned against the east side until I opened the test save. I originally thought settling on the PH would get us a couple more unknown tiles.
Wake me up when the save comes out.
Dhoomstriker
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Cottages
EDIT: Here's what kossin did in that early-Pyramids game:
Initial "Moves"
Probably the first "moves" will be to pause the saved game, collect info about the saved game (such as Demographics info or whatever we can glean), the X & Y co-ordinates from the F1 screen, and then upload the paused saved game. That way, we can find out just how far north and south we are, which may have a very minor impact on our settling decision, as WastinTime has implied.
Cities 1 and 2
I'm not convinced that it makes sense to ignore the Pig for City #1 if we are also going to ignore it for City #2. As far as I am concerned, if we settle City #1 to not grab the Pig, City #2 must go by the Pig. Even if we settle City #2 with the Pig in our big fat cross and have to whip or chop a Monument to get the Pig within our Cultural Borders (don't forget that a Monument = +1 Happiness, so it's actually one of the cheapest forms of a +1 Happiness Building), then we do so.
Thus, I am concerned by a plan where we'd settle in place (which misses the Pig) and where we settle City #2 on the Marble (which also misses the Pig).
Again, I point to the suggestion that if we're going to SIP, the strongest tech to Oracle could very well be Calendar, not only for the Happiness but also for the large number of Resources which can be worked by the capital just by earning that extra Happiness.
The time that it takes to get Math is going to give us the time that we need to hook up the Marble. Probably the biggest thing to figure out if we go with such an approach will be "Worker 2 or a Settler for City 2 first?"
Forest-Chopping
There are enough Forests that we will increase our chances of Forest regrowth by chopping at least a couple of them, even before we pick up Math. As a good example, by chopping the P For that is 1W of the G Corn, we actually gain a net 3 Forest regrowth chances. The same can be said of chopping the PH For 1N of the G Pig. The same can also be said of the P For that is 1NW of where our Settler starts.
With a willingness to chop a few Forests pre-Math (yes, even with a beeline to Math post-Priesthood), I think that it could really be worth it to get Worker 2 before Settler 2 (where Settler 2 is the Settler that will settle City 2, even if BUFFY will name it Settler 1).
If we grow to Size 2 and start to build Worker 2, then there's less of a need to race to getting a Granary as we'll be stagnating growth.
EDIT: To be clear, I am not saying that we ignore an early Granary, but just delay it, as I would build the Granary after Worker 2, hopefully with some help from a Forest or two.
With 2 Workers, hooking up the Marble manually doesn't seem like such an arduous chore anymore.
I'm kind of with kossin on this one (or at least we can get an insight into how the competition thinks):
In other words, unless your capital has a large excess of Food, you're probably better off building Farms if you're planning a Representation game.
EDIT: Here's what kossin did in that early-Pyramids game:
Spoiler :
Initial "Moves"
Probably the first "moves" will be to pause the saved game, collect info about the saved game (such as Demographics info or whatever we can glean)
Cities 1 and 2
I'm not convinced that it makes sense to ignore the Pig for City #1 if we are also going to ignore it for City #2. As far as I am concerned, if we settle City #1 to not grab the Pig, City #2 must go by the Pig. Even if we settle City #2 with the Pig in our big fat cross and have to whip or chop a Monument to get the Pig within our Cultural Borders (don't forget that a Monument = +1 Happiness, so it's actually one of the cheapest forms of a +1 Happiness Building), then we do so.
Thus, I am concerned by a plan where we'd settle in place (which misses the Pig) and where we settle City #2 on the Marble (which also misses the Pig).
Again, I point to the suggestion that if we're going to SIP, the strongest tech to Oracle could very well be Calendar, not only for the Happiness but also for the large number of Resources which can be worked by the capital just by earning that extra Happiness.
The time that it takes to get Math is going to give us the time that we need to hook up the Marble. Probably the biggest thing to figure out if we go with such an approach will be "Worker 2 or a Settler for City 2 first?"
Forest-Chopping
There are enough Forests that we will increase our chances of Forest regrowth by chopping at least a couple of them, even before we pick up Math. As a good example, by chopping the P For that is 1W of the G Corn, we actually gain a net 3 Forest regrowth chances. The same can be said of chopping the PH For 1N of the G Pig. The same can also be said of the P For that is 1NW of where our Settler starts.
With a willingness to chop a few Forests pre-Math (yes, even with a beeline to Math post-Priesthood), I think that it could really be worth it to get Worker 2 before Settler 2 (where Settler 2 is the Settler that will settle City 2, even if BUFFY will name it Settler 1).
If we grow to Size 2 and start to build Worker 2, then there's less of a need to race to getting a Granary as we'll be stagnating growth.
EDIT: To be clear, I am not saying that we ignore an early Granary, but just delay it, as I would build the Granary after Worker 2, hopefully with some help from a Forest or two.
With 2 Workers, hooking up the Marble manually doesn't seem like such an arduous chore anymore.
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