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[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    1. No monument in Science. Switch to SH ASAP, before Rax complete.

    2. I agree with growing Cows. Farm Cows-n, then wines before camping the fur (t35)? Perfect timing to camp tundra 1f. Let shepherd camp deer...?

    Means t31 Sailing (i think), so probably best to force wb2 to complete t31 with max OF into galley. Cows is p3 on t31.

    4. In Science prioritize t31 Sailing, working rice only if possible.

    5. I’m not gung-ho about early settling of canal and silver without wbs. They won’t be significant till slavery anyway. The choice between wb1 to canal or exploration is a pita. I guess ultimately the long-term choice is to send it south. That will be foresighted. Or even send it beyond canal exploring with a follow-up going south. We can delay that decision till after exploring the western area.
     
  2. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    If we can agree on rax, then I think you’re free to play a few turns.

    I think stagnating Science growth now for some stupid wkr food-hammers is a big mistake. Slows our research terribly. We’re building rax to avoid building a unit.
     
  3. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Don’t forget to cancel worker action this turn!!! :cool:
     
  4. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Wb1

    Yes, send him exploring south. Let’s find out if those are islands, for the 2c TRs.
     
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    TL;DR It's not too short. We'll likely be doing Liberalism->Medicine after all.

    Pre-game, seeing 1 rice and 1 seafood, I didn't think either food corp would be worth it. And certainly not including researching 7000 for medicine, but now (seeing our seafood) I think it is.
    Great idea Kait! :goodjob: I did some research. We need about 45 techs to get Sushi. After that, there are 12 techs. We can bulb 3 (astro, physics, Electr) especially with sushi helping us run scientists and early National Park/Bio. Yes, Biology is back in the beeline because we need it for Medicine.
    The other 9 techs are 60,000 beakers :eek: As LC pointed out we probably can't get 1500 bpt if we can even get to 1000 (without something like sushi). So we're looking at 40-60 turns of research.

    Question becomes: Can sushi make up the difference? Let's assume the AI would let us save liberalism for Industrialsim (10,000), but we 'wasted' it on Medicine.

    We should be able to get, let's say 14-ish resources. If the AI does the same, we could get 10 extra from each AI :eek: That's 74 = 37 food/city.
    Even at 60 (30 food/city).

    For the 1st 10 turns after sushi is fully spread (4-5 turns), our empire will grow +50 pop.
    Then slowly go up to 70 or 80 as we grow while unhealthy (-3 food per citizen).
    First off, our bulbs will now be ~250 beakers more, so for 10 post-sushi bulbs, that's 2500:science: recovered so far.
    So let's just ballpark, on average, after sushi, our empire operates as if it has 60 extra scientists/turn.
    Every city has library, uni and one also has Oxford. That's roughly +600bpt
    So just 20 turns after sushi, we've got an extra 12,000 + 2500 from bulb-boosts.

    -- Actually, not only do we get 250 extra per bulb, we will just get a lot more bulbs and/or a golden age.
    I think it's a no-brainer on sushi.
    (edit: i kinda glossed over the whole expenses problem, so maybe not a no-brainer)

    And yes, this may put Culture victory squarely in our sites (need to calculate that) I've never done a sushi culture game.

    (And.. 60+ resources? we might do STRIKE economy :devil:)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  6. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    How does the strike economy work in that case? How do you get beakers and culture when in strike?
     
  7. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    We don't need a third worker. The two current workers quickly get ahead of city growth. So partial barracks -> SH until just finished in Science?

    Let me rework the plan with the farm instead of the fur camp.

    I agree that scouting with wb1 makes more sense. Knowledge is power. We can make the final decision later.
     
  8. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    agree with all that too.

    - strike works by building research and using specialist beakers.

    - building culture and artists, but I don't think were going to manage culture victory after my first look at it.
    We want to win the game ~40 turns after sushi. Ideally 35 turns. That'd be 1200-1500 culture per turn.
    Even with 4 cathedrals + Hermitage + FreeSpeech I'm not seeing it. Sushi is maybe 120-140 culture. We probably can't build Sistine and can't spam wonders.
    It's not off the table yet. I'm probably forgetting something about culture games. Artist bombs?
     
  9. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Sitting Bull

    He’s at -2 hidden, so we need +5plusmods for Pleased.

    We need to trade him as many resources as possible after Sailing. One resource per trade.

    +1 Peace
    +2 resources
    +2 OBs
    +4 Trade relations
     
  10. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Hmm... I'm not sure that using the Cowboy to farm the wine is the right move. We only work that tile for 2 turns because we need the 2C/turn to finish Sailing. However, that means we have 5 turns of not working a fur camp. On T31, I just learned Sailing, Cows just grew to 3 and the Cowboy can just start the 5-turn camp.

    I think it's better to keep Cowboy at home so that he can pasture cow -> farm plains river -> camp fur in time for Cows to work the fur.

    BTW, I had to waste two turns on the way from the plains river farm to the to avoid having the worker outside our borders costing us 1 gpt so he built a partial tundra farm at Cows-NE, then moved to the wine, then started the farm.

    Also, cows finished its wb (T30) one turn before learning sailing (T31) so I had Science finish the rax (1T) and I built SH in Cows for that turn (you'll notice 6H in SH in Cows if you look). Starting on T31, Science goes back to SH for fail gold and Cows starts on a galley.

    Save attached with the MM of Cowboy building the wine farm. If I go with the other MM (i.e. Cowboys stays at the ranch), you have to subtract 2F from Science and Cows could be working a fur camp rather than a plains forest on T31.
     

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    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  11. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Do you really think we'll be on STRIKE with only 7 cities? I would assume that we could still run the slider. Also, with only 7 cities to build sacrificial units to the strike monster, how long could we keep up. Lastly, we may have some late-game things to build including wonders. I'm not saying it won't work, I'd just be surprised if we needed to be in strike with only 7 cities. It seems like it would be better to build wealth and keep the slider at 100% + max scientists.

    Culture does use Great Artist bombs but that goes against having massing scientists to fuel research + GS bulbs. I'm not sure that Cultural Victory will work either in this game. I'm thinking either UN (if we get some good tech trading partners) or Conquest.
     
  12. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Regarding Sushi, using the extra food to grow our cities and work more scientists sounds like a great way to crank up our beaker rate. How soon do we have to decide on that path?

    I missed the edit the first time but you're right that expenses will go up. I'm not sure by how much if we only have it in 7 cities. We will need things to build so I assume that we can squeeze in a few CH when not building something else useful (or wealth/science) so that should help a bit.

    EDIT: I doubt we can get +10 resources from each of the AI... We likely wouldn't have anything to trade for that many either.
     
  13. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Another scout should be inside the borders so the worker can go out. Or maybe we’ll settle one. Long ways off.

    Also, rather than putting Cows hammers into SH for a turn, I’d work coastal to get max OF into the galley when the wb completes. We’ll work the nets so we want leeway to finish the galley asap.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  14. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    no, I just miss it. It's been a long time since I ran that economy.
    I was thinking that 70 resources would be expensive tho.
    That's when we trade them Gold and then go into STRIKE :king:
     
  15. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Maybe try not to complete the RAX if you can hold off. We may want a whip overflow?
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    What other paths are on the table? I think we ruled out State Property. Is there any better target than Biology/Nat Park? lib medicine?
    Another good thing about lib-Medicine vs lib-Industrialism is that we do it earlier so we can get Communism/Kremlin if we want. Also, less chance the AI gets liberalism first.
     
  17. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Sitting Bull is a bad tech trade partner.
    Civ Illustrated has him at 80% of AI knowing a tech before he will trade it.

    I like Mysticism and Sailing.
    Sailing is the best way for us to find a spot for city 5, 6, and 7 if the west dead ends.

    We need Bronze Working to make the high food cities that are far away productive.

    There might be an argument for Bronze Working after Mysticism to get city 3 and 4 up as fast as possible rather than Sailing to search for better city spots for city 5,6,7.

    Technically we could make decent use of Writing + Open Borders to settle east or south of Sitting Bull, and our capital can build Library thanks to horse, but the fail gold from Stonehenge pays off better in the short term.

    I am torn about sending the 1st work boat to explore or help our 3rd city.

    Should probably just play a few more turns to clarify the west, but our options are pretty limited right now.
    This will be a very slow game.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  18. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I still think cowboy on furs makes more sense. Having him do the wines farm provides 2F in Science at the loss of several turns of a fur camp. Is that a good tradeoff? Seems bad to me...

    Ok.

    Keep the ideas coming. I'll update the PPP tomorrow with my updated worker MM (Cowboy stays at Cows) unless you guys have a strong argument otherwise.

    Working a coast to slow down the wb may make the wine farm only used 1 turn???
     
  19. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I think we need to send the wb scouting ASAP. It will give us more info about whether or not the Alpha beeline makes sense. If we meet Toku next, maybe we drop Alpha. If it's Mansa... I think an exploring wb is critical, two would be better.

    I'm still torn between an Alpha beeline and IW beeline after Sailing.
     
  20. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Yep. Slowing the wb per LC should allow this.
     

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