Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 23, 2020.
Canal seems stronger than Silver pre-Mining.
still useful I think. Let me work on it.
It’s actually mindlessly simple. If you want to place SB it would be simpler to edit in advance. Give SB FC tiles that force him to work the plains river we see.
Sci, Cows build wkr, automate
Res: 0%, tech 0 (rinse repeat)
Res: 100%, tech 0
Cows works plains river
I guess that would be pigs. What other animal is missing? Elephant?
hmm. Sure, we can keep it on the table. The tech path may be too short for it to pay off.
I'm having trouble parsing this with all of the negatives here. I think you're saying that we should NOT settle Canal City until we have Mysticism so that it can start building a monument on the first turn. Correct? I would say that if we did settle Canal City prior to Mysticism, it would go partial wb -> monument -> finish wb. So those hammers wouldn't be wasted. For me, it's a matter of two things:
1. The impact of settling the city on our tech rate.
2. Settling the city before SB.
Right now, I'm thinking that Cows builds wb1 (for 4 food + silver) -> monument -> wb2 to explore -> wb3 for crab resource. I think we really need to get an exploring wb out so I could be convinced to send wb1 out to explore but this would delay 4 food + silver wb by 9 turns.
On that note, are we planning to delay settling 4 food + silver until the turn the wb arrives and can net the clam? Or would we settle it sooner and have it build its own wb after the monument? It probably needs to build its own worker to avoid having one walk that far.
OK, I'll work on updating the test save. I can't remember if there is an easy way to change the AI after you've already rolled the start. I think it's possible but can't remember how.
EDIT: If there is no way, is it worth it to start over and add SB before rolling the start? Or can we place once of the existing AI from the test save in SB's spot.
existing AI is fine.
What are people's thoughts on citizen MM in Cows? We want the second citizen to work a 1F2H tile for at least 3 turns to pull in the monument build by 1 turn.
After that point, we have the option of
- continuing to work a 1F2H tile which speeds up wb2 and wb3 as well as speeds up growth to 3 pops by several turns.
- switch to the fur camp (0F1H4C) tile which delays wb3 by a turn (wb 3 is a turn late on netting the crab after the borders pop)
The trade off is something like 7F14H (and sooner growth) vs 26C if you extrapolate all the way out to T47. It seems like it would be better not to work the fur camp at all until we hit 3 pops even though on the surface, the 1F2H tile seems inferior to the 1H4C tile. The sooner growth and the JIT wb for the crab net seems better but I'm not sure how to value the 26C in this scenario. Thoughts?
Cows will likely build wb -> monument -> 3 wbs
wb3 is for the crab resource but what do we want to do with the other 3 work boats and in what order. Options include:
1. nets for 4 food + silver city
3. nets for Canal City
Timing for 4 food + silver and Canal City: As LC said, do we wait until Mysticism and then settle both cities (including Canal City) so that they can build a monument as a first build? Do we settle them sooner? Do we settle them later?
Regarding SH, I'm not convinced that it's the wonder we want to build in Cows/Prophet. We won't want to wait forever to have free monuments in City #3 and #4 so they would likely build a monument anyway. So we'd be building SH for 120H to avoid having to build 4 monuments (Science and City #5, #6, #7). We'll run out of things to build anyway so building monuments in each city isn't that big a deal. It seems like there is a better Great Wonder to build in Prophet than SH.
@M: The T5 Canal wb would have about 18h before starting the monument, which would take 14t. Okay, the wb would lose 4h. Nets t32, p3 t35, monu t37. That means +3c for -5gpt for 25t. Plus wb2 before borders and wb3 soon after. +3c for -5gpt extra ~10t.
Hm... that sounds damn good. Did we screw the pooch?
If we settle t21, p2 + nets on t32, p3 t40, monu t41. +3c for -5gpt for 20t. Wb2 t51, wb3 t60-something. Yikes.
@M: I doubt we will do SH but it’s a much better value than you realize. If we were to get it. 7 monuments = 210h. (You omitted Cows btw.) Plus, Canal and Silver build their own wb with those 30h so no travel time lost. Then the other 3 cities get instant monus.
Problem is, delays our galley and AIs starting with 4hpt...I doubt we’d get it.
My idea was: wb1-monu-wb2-galley!
Galley takes two settlers, drops one off at S crabs2S, the other one at crabs2SE, same turn. Then they either move or re-board. Eventually galley moves on around to Canal to drop 1-2 settlers off up there or maybe at SB.
Also depends on what happens to the west, if the land continues and especially if it loops around.
Else, why tech Sailing? For two lousy coins?
I was thinking about galley vs. wb while taking my shower. I agree that we go wb1-monu-wb2-galley.
I don't follow all of this. How do we get nets t32 if the monument doesn't finish until t37? The soonest nets would be 47, right?
Are you now suggesting that we settle Canal City now to get the snowball rolling sooner (like Kait originally suggested)? It will delay Mysticism if we do it.
Are we agreed that SH is off the table or should we continue to discuss the pros/cons?
no SH for me
Updated test game on T13
Both Canal and silver have 1 seafood in inner city.
My conclusion is PR made the better move settling T5, specific to Canal’s growth. Not necessarily for their overall empire. Canal becomes self-supporting after the first Cows wb arrives.
So can we take advantage of what we did? Our Teching is faster and Cows will pop its borders faster. Can we win the tech and exploration battle?
We can get Sailing T30, if we want, as long as we don’t settle City 3. So we could settle Canal T31, just when wb1 can net. Then we grow Canal, working commerce tiles till we have Slavery, then whip monument to completion and wbs, or whatever. Slower growth, but less drag on our economy. SB won’t settle this before T30. I’m not convinced he’ll even have a settler yet.
Meanwhile we should be able to get our galley out several turns before PR does. That would allow us to settle offshore much sooner if there is something.
Binary research: Myst -> Sailing
Science: barracks -> monument -> SH (don't complete it)
Cows: wb1 -> monument -> wb2 -> galley (assumes we can get Sailing by now)
Shepherd: partial farm Science-N (1T) -> sheep pasture (4T) -> partial farm Science-N (1T) -> horse pasture (4T) -> rice farm (5T) -> move Science-N (1T) -> farm Science-N (2T)
Cowboy: pasture cow (4T) -> move to fur -> camp fur (5T) -> partial farm Cows-N -> move to wine-W -> farm wine (5T) -> farm Science-2 with Shepherd (1T) (this worker has a few turns before deer can be improved)
Settler 4 (furthest NW): finish exploring peninsula (and beyond if possible)
Settler 3 (NW by double silver): NNE onto silver hill to defog ocean tiles then start walking toward 4F+silver site in case the peninsula isn't a peninsula.
Settler 5 (south of Science): Stay put watching for AI wb
Settler 2 (near Canal City location): move back inside cultural borders and wait to board galley
Settler 7 (near SB): move 1 SE and stay put watching for SB worker/settler
In Cows, second citizen works 1F2H tile rather than fur camp for 3 turns to speed up monument. After that, I assume that we work 1H4C fur camp to speed up Sailing rather than 1F2H tile to speed up wb2 (and wb3 if Sailing is delayed) and city growth. The tradeoff is about 7F14H vs. 26C at T47.
When do we settle Canal City?
When do we settle 4 food plus Silver city?
Does wb1 go toward Canal City, 4F+Silver city or exploring?
EDIT: xpost with LC
Ah yes, it was the other city site that isn't a canal that didn't have seafood in the inner ring.
Another advantage to waiting until after Sailing is that we get TRs between our cites as soon as they settle so they aren't as big of a drain on our economy on the turn they are settled.
It feels like the ideal time to settle city #3 is some time between now and T31 (maybe right after Mysticicm??) but that's just a feel. Waiting all the way until T31 seems too long...
Are we settling Canal City first because it's closer (less maintenance, wb gets there sooner, etc.)? What about sending the first wb exploring instead? Meeting that AI sooner and having a better idea where to send the galley settlers may be worth more than instant nets in city #3.
tl;dr Aim to settle all 7 cities as early as makes sense.
My feeling is : try to settle canal as soon as you 'can'... where 'can' is defined as
- not delaying myst longer than someone needs to start a monument. i.e. if cows could put another turn or two into another wb and delay starting the monument, BUT its borders still expand in time , etc....
- not delaying sailing longer than when you want someone to start a galley.
....you get the idea.
Here's another way to look at it: optimize for either turns to: Alpha or IW--whichever path we take.
Why? not to be ahead in the tech race. It's because that's when we can settle city #7.
PR settled #3 before us (too early IMO) we want to be first to settle all 7.
If expanding borders 1-2 turns sooner in cows means we work 2-3 fur faster and we come out ahead, do that.
Growing Cows is probably right vs working the fur because it gets us working 3 fur faster.
RAX? ugh Try to start a worker if we can afford to not grow?
I'd like to go a couple turns and see if 4-foodSilver is really 2 cities. It might matter on our plans to send wb's or not.
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