[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, explain this gem. A few days ago:

Now:

The sequence of the T73 saves flipped. Go figure.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I have the urge to chop GLH ASAP in 2Clams. Anyone wanna talk me off the ledge?

Sure. It’ll cost you three more workers. Off?

 

[WastinTime]

Sure. It’ll cost you three more workers. Off?

That was easy. I'm off

I'm interested to hear how this would work. But I can wait for the right time.

Not super secret. I just wanna get this GLH decided once and for all first since it affects the next few turns (doing LH first in 2Clams).
I think if we pass on it, I would also pass on Colossus and go for the UN.

Or!! passing on GLH could mean that we pass on MassMedia and use our GE to rush (some of) Eiffel (1250h). Never considered that.
GLH doesn't sound as good when you compare it to 5616 for MM.

....and now we're back to 'kill em all'

 

[WastinTime]

I think it's because Calendar is a tech you almost always want early for plantations.

right, or MoM.
So I just double checked that calendar doesn't get bulbed before anything we need. Cus like you said, we always have had calendar, so who knew if it was high in priority or not.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Or!! passing on GLH could mean that we pass on MassMedia and use our GE to rush (some of) Eiffel (1250h). Never considered that.
GLH doesn't sound as good when you compare it to 5616 for MM.

What I like best about that is it gives us the most time to safely find out if there’s an ice palace.

GLH is meh. W/o copper, Col too.

How do we guarantee a GE?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Similarly, then:

And now:

Alpha never did make sense to me because I just don’t see where they could get 30 points in techs. Whether from SB or other AI‘s. It would require getting in one turn pottery, poly, meditation, what? It doesn’t happen, there aren’t five techs available on the same level. Bulbing Philo (18 pts) didn’t happen T73 (if ever) because no 5c culture shift.

 

[WastinTime]

... ice palace.

How do we guarantee a GE?

Obviously no guarantee on the GE, but we will have about 20 tries. Best to get one early and bank it.

RE: ice palace. In this game, it doesn't even have to be ice palace. One simple inland island -- a 1 tile row of coast tiles will stop us since we can't settle the shore and sail across.
Can't gift cities and vassal. Peace vassal? probably not possible.

I highly doubt NZ would screw the teams that build GLH or Colossus, so conquest probably will work, but I strongly prefer a peaceful game this time around. I feel like there will be a lot more to learn and maybe some secrets discovered cooperating with the AI for a change.
Back in they day, 10+ years ago, I played a lot of OCC diplo and I recall routinely buying the UN in 1 turn (without a GE) using Universal Suff. I should check the HoF to see if my memory is correct. But that was Deity AI giving me 1000 gold for techs.

 

[WastinTime]

buying the UN in 1 turn

Yep, I checked 3 of the Quick speed games on various map sizes. Bought UN in 1 turn for gold.
But in real One city OCC, you have nothing to spend money on. Our situation is different.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ya I think so.
I'm going to try and write up the PPP with all the latest changes and see what the team thinks.

I've already noticed that Cow City is busy with Great Wall T67, so Workboat needs to be started T66 even if we revolt to Bureau T79.
And Rex can't start a mine on that hill T68 because the city is not founded yet.

**Edit**
Interesting.
Mirrorguard does not spend all the Great Wall gold right away and shifts spending to 100% from T72 through T78 I think for a couple extra beakers.

Bah!
I need more time.

Whale City is simply a mess trying to get good growth with granary.
I'll figure it out tonight.

Perhaps WTs granary chop + whip is my long term solution.

 

[WastinTime]

Whale City is simply a mess trying to get good growth with granary.
I'll figure it out tonight.

I don't know that we need to plan too far out. If we get SH failgold, then we can relax, right? It won't make too much sense to work the silver all the time. Surely much less after T78. Only once the city has a good growth rhythm, nears the happy cap, we go back to the silver and fur. I'd just like to see that 3 turn PPP and play and see what happens.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Yep, I checked 3 of the Quick speed games on various map sizes. Bought UN in 1 turn for gold.
But in real One city OCC, you have nothing to spend money on. Our situation is different.

We already know the AI‘s have less land than we see for ourselves. They have lousy terrain. How will they be able to have gold in large quantities for trading techs later on? Is there some way we can foster that happening? How do we have to think to create an abundance of gold in the end game? I’ve never operated on that basis really.

 

[WastinTime]

Is there some way we can foster that happening? How do we have to think to create an abundance of gold in the end game? I’ve never operated on that basis really.

The AI will only trade a certain amt of gold based on their pop. So it grows as the game goes on.
However, there is an exploit I haven't used in years.
You need non-spiritual AI.
Every time to see a wonder complete message you ask them (or force them with spy?) to change civics or religion (anarchy)
Then, all of their gold + failgold is tradeable during anarchy.
I think any time they happen to enter anarchy you can look to see what gold you can get. Even if no failgold.

Or, I could be remembering wrong, or it coulda been a bug fixed long ago
I'm hoping maybe we discover a new exploit along the way, but we won't if we aren't even trying the peace route.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The AI will only trade a certain amt of gold based on their pop. So it grows as the game goes on.
However, there is an exploit I haven't used in years.
You need non-spiritual AI.
Every time to see a wonder complete message you ask them (or force them with spy?) to change civics or religion (anarchy)
Then, all of their gold + failgold is tradeable during anarchy.
I think any time they happen to enter anarchy you can look to see what gold you can get. Even if no failgold.

Or, I could be remembering wrong, or it coulda been a bug fixed long ago
I'm hoping maybe we discover a new exploit along the way, but we won't if we aren't even trying the peace route.

so this calls for a meeting them at the very least as soon as possible. We can use that at any time during the game and we have a techs to trade once we have currency and alphabet.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ok, I've got the micro figured out that gives a decent cushion and lines up a really good chain of overflows into Mids.

Main change is delaying Great Wall whip 1 more turn to T71 so Cow City can make us 16 more fail gold.
Math goes to T75 and we can get Code of Laws by T79 with 100% slider.

Cow City focuses on Stonehenge and then produces a workboat.
Silver City whips a Workboat for Whale City and puts overflow into mids.
Whale City gets a chop T78 and then max overflow whips granary into mids.
Canal puts its hammers into Dun and will use the stone gifting trick to put 100 hammers into mids in the mid 80s.
Clam city is working 4hammer hill T77 and can max overflow granary whip eventually due to earlier chop.

I'll write it down as a PPP and if the team like it we can post a mini PPP of the 1st 3 turns and have Mirrorguard play.

 

[Kaitzilla]

PPP
Turn 65 to Turn 77​

Continuing from Kaitzilla's Turnset

Empire

Spoiler :

Techs
T65 - Writing 0% (21 +24) Writing@ 0+Overflow/187
T66 - Writing 100% (45 -37) +63 Writing@ 49/187
T67 - Writing 40% (8 -1) +24 Writing@ 151/187
T68 - Mathematics 0% (7 +25) Mathematics@ 0+Overflow/390 (Sign Open Borders /w Sitting Bull)
T69 - Mathematics 0% (32 +27) Mathematics@ 3/390
T70 - Mathematics 100% (59 -53) +83 Mathematics@ 4/390
T71 - Mathematics 40% (6 -3) +30 Mathematics@ 104/390
T72 - Mathematics 100% (129 -52) +94 Mathematics@ 141/390
T73 - Mathematics 100% (317 -52) +94 Mathematics@ 255/390
T74 - Mathematics 100% (265 -53) +94 Mathematics@ 369/390
T75 - Code of Laws 100% (212 -55) +98 Code of Laws@ 0+Overflow/546
T76 - Code of Laws 100% (157 -57) +100 Code of Laws@ 210/546
T77 - Code of Laws 100% (100 -54) +91 Code of Laws@ 331/546
T78 - Code of Laws 100% (55 -53) +89 Code of Laws@ 441/546 Note the +9 from Dun overflow

Workers
Shepherd - (Worker 2E1N of Cow City)
T65 - T67 Chop forest for Great Wall
T68 - Road Wine and STOP!
T69 - Farm 1W of Science City
T70 - Move to gems 2S1W of Science City
T71 - T72 Road gems
T73 - Move to tundra forest 1S of Science City
T74 - T76 Road
T77 - Move to plains forest 2S2E of Science City? Perhaps road horses.

Cowboy - (Worker 2W1N of Silver City)
T65 - Chop forest for Great Wall
T66 - Move to fur 2N of Silver City
T67 - T69 Road fur
T70 - Road 1W of Silver City and STOP!
T71 - T72 Camp Deer
T73 - Camp Deer and STOP!
T74 - Move to 2E of Whale City
T75 - T78 Chop forest into Granary

Phillip - (Worker on Galley2 3S of Deer)
T65 - Get off Galley 2 at forest 2S of Cows City
T66 - T67 Chop forest for Great Wall
T68 - Move onto Deer tile
T69 - T71 Road Deer
T72 - Board Galley 1 at 1S of deer and sail to Profit City
T73 - Walk off Galley 1 into Profit City
T74 - Move to forest 2W of Profit City
T75 - T78 Chop forest into Oracle

Joan Dark - (Worker on Galley2 3S of Deer)
T65 - Get off Galley 2 at forest 2S of Cows City
T66-T67 Chop forest for Great Wall
T68 - Move onto Deer tile
T69 - Move to forest 1S1E of Deer tile
T70 - T72 Road
T73 - Move to plains forest hill 2S2E of Deer tile
T74 - T75 Road
T76 - Chop plains forest hill and STOP! (Critical Move)
T77 - Board Galley 1 and sail towards Profit City
T78 - Exit Galley 1 inside Profit City and chop forest 1NW of Profit City into Oracle

Rex - (Worker 1W of Wheat)
T65 - Move to 2N2E of Science City
T66 - Move into Science City
T67 - Farm 1W of Science City
T68 - Farm 1W of Science City and STOP!
T69 - T70 Move to forest plains hill 1N1W of Clams City
T71 - T77 Mine forest plains hill 1N1W of Clams City

Settlers
Settler 7 - (Our last Settler located on Wine tile 1N2W of Science City)
T65 - T68 Move to Clams City site 2S2E of Rice.
T69 - Found Clams City 2S2E of Rice


Cities
Science City
T65 - The Great Wall (goes to 128/150); Sheep, Rice, Horse, Winefarm
T66 - Dun; Sheep, Rice, Horse, Winefarm, Plainsriverfarm
T67 - Pyramids (goes to 20/500); Sheep, Rice, Horse, Winefarm, Plainsriverfarm
T68 - Library; Sheep, Rice, Horse, Winefarm, Plainsriverfarm
T69 - T70 Library; Sheep, Rice, Horse, Winefarm, Plainsriverfarm x2 (Roading Fur T69 will fix , Double Check tiles)
T71 - 2-pop Whip Library; Sheep, Rice, Horse, Winefarm
T72 - Pyramids (goes to 58/500); Sheep, Horse, Winefarm, Scientists x2
T73 - Warrior; Sheep, Horse, Winefarm, Scientists x2
T74 - Dun; Sheep, Horse, Winefarm, Scientists x2
T75 - Pyramids (goes to 74/500); Sheep, Horse, Winefarm, Scientists x2
T76 - Pyramids (goes to 90/500); Sheep, Horse, Winefarm, Scientists x2
T77 - 1-pop Whip Dun; Sheep, Rice, Horse, Winefarm (Make sure to trade away Stone+Deer to Sitting Bull after whipping Profit City+Science City both Duns)
T78 - Pyramids (goes to 208/500); Sheep, Rice, Horse, Winefarm (Must pillage Deer road to get back Stone!)

Cow City
T65 - Stonehenge (goes to 38/120); Crab, Cow, x3 Fur
T66 - Stonehenge (goes to 54/120); Crab, Cow, x3 Fur
T67 - The Great Wall (goes to 96/150); Crab, Cow, x3 Fur
T68 - Stonehenge (goes to 70/120); Crab, Cow, x3 Fur
T69 - Stonehenge (goes to 86/120) Crab, Cow, x3 Fur
T70 - The Great Wall (goes to 112/150); Crab, Cow, x3 Fur
T71 - Stonehenge (goes to 102/120); Crab, Cow, x3 Fur
T72 - Stonehenge (goes to 118/120); Crab, Cow, x3 Fur (Do not finish Stonehenge in Cow City!)
T73 - T76 Workboat (Remove Stonehenge from queue); Crab, Cow, x3 Fur (Goes to net 3rd seafood for Whale City)
T77 - T81 Another Workboat Crab, Cow, x3 Fur (Goes to net 3rd seafood for Canal City or 2nd seafood for Clam City / Anarchy T79 for Bureau switch)

Canal City
T65 - T66 Pyramids; Clam, Crab
T67 - Dun; Clam, Crab, unimproved Clam
T68 - Pyramids; Clam, Crab, unimproved Clam
T69 - The Great Wall (goes to 90/150); Clams, Crab, unimproved Clam, foresttundra (1 1)
T70 - Stonehenge; Clams, Crab, unimproved Clam, Coast
T71 - 2-pop Whip The Great Wall; Clam, Crab
T72 - Dun; Clam, Crab, unimproved Clam
T73 - Stonehenge; Clam, Crab, unimproved Clam
T74 - T75 Stonehenge; Clam, Crab, unimproved Clam, Coast
T76 - Stonehenge; Clam, Crab, unimproved Clam, Coast x2
T77 - Lighthouse; Clam, Crab, unimproved Clam, Coast x2 (No Stone)
T78 - Stonehenge; Clam, Crab, unimproved Clam, Coast x2

Profit City
T65 - T66 Oracle CRUCIAL BUILD; Crab, Stone
T67 - Stonehenge; Crab Stone
T68 - T69 Oracle CRUCIAL BUILD; Crab, Stone
T70 - Dun CRUCIAL BUILD; Crab, Stone, Coast
T71 - T76; Oracle CRUCIAL BUILD; Crab, Stone, Coast
T77 - 1-pop Whip Dun; Crab, Stone (Make sure to trade away Stone+Deer to Sitting Bull after whipping Profit City+Science City Both Duns)
T78 - Oracle CRUCIAL BUILD; Crab, Stone

Silver City
T65 - 1-pop Whip Granary; HALT GROWTH BUTTON ON Clam, Crab
T66 - The Great Wall (goes to 68/150); Clam, Crab
T67 - Scout; HALT GROWTH BUTTON OFF Clam, Crab
T68 - Scout; Clam, Crab x2
T69 - T71 Scout; Clam, Crab x2, Silvermine
T72 - Scout; Clam, Crab x2, Silvermine, Fur
T73 - Workboat; Clam, Crab x2, Silvermine, Fur
T74 - Workboat; Clam, Crab x2, Silvermine, Coast
T75 - T77 Workboat; Clam, Crab x2, Silvermine, Fur, Coast
T78 - 1-pop Whip Workboat; Clam, Crab x2, Silvermine, Fur (Goes to net Clams for Whale City on T83)

Whale City
T65 - T66 Monument; Crab, Silvermine
T67 - 1-pop Whip Monument; Crab
T68 - The Great Wall (goes to 58/150); Crab
T69 - Pyramids; Crab, Silvermine
T70 - T77 Granary; Crab, Silvermine
T78 - Granary; Crab, Silvermine (Chop lands)
T79 - 1-pop Whip Granary before Anarchy; Silvermine
T80 - Granary; Silvermine
T81 - Lighthouse; Crab
T82 - Lighthouse; Crab, unimproved Clam
T83 - T85 Lighthouse; Crab, Clam
T86 - Lighthouse; Crab, Clam, Horse

Clam City (Founded 2S2E of Rice on T69)
T69 - Granary; unimproved Clam
T70 - Pyramids; Clam (If a popup comes at the start of Turn 70 and asks if Clam City should join the Native American Empire, Click NO!)
T71 - Pyramids; Clam
T72 - Granary; Clam
T73 - T74 Pyramids; Clam
T75 - T76 Granary; Clam, unimproved forest plains hill (3)
T77 - Granary; Clam, Plainshillmine (Chop lands)
T78 - Granary; Clam, Plainshillmine

Units
Galley 1 (8N1W of Canal City)
T65 - T69 Sail to 4S1E of Cow City
T70 - Sail to 1S of Deer tile to wait for Phillip
T72 - Pick up Phillip from Deer Tile and sail towards Profit City
T73 - Sail to 1N of Profit City and unload Phillip into Profit City by walking him off the boat
T74 - Sail to Crab tile 2N1E of Profit City
T76 - Sail to 3N3E of Profit City to pick up Joan Dark (Critical Movement)
T77 - Pick up Joan Dark from forest plains hill and sail to Profit City
T78 - Sail into Profit City and have Joan Dark chop forest 1N1W of Profit City

Galley 2 (Inside Cow City)
T65 - Sail to 3S of Cow City and drop off Joan and Phillip at 2S of Cows City. Pick up Warrior 2!
T66 - Take Warrior 2 from Deer Camp and sail for Silver City
T71 - Drop off Warrior 2 inside Silver City in passing on the way west
T73 - Reach 3S1E of Whale City
T74 - Pick up Scout from 2S2E of Whale City and sail west to explore

Warrior 2
T65 - Get on Galley 2 before it sails northwest
T71 - Get off Galley 2 into Silver City
T72+ - Garrison Silver City

Warrior 3 (Born in Science City on Turn 74)
T74 - Move to 1S of Science City
T75 - Move to Gems tile 2S1W of Science City
T78 - Pillage plains hill road 1S1W of gems tile to regain Stone+Deer from Sitting Bull

Scout 1 (Born in Silver City on Turn 73)
T73 - Born in Silver City, move to 2S2E of Whale City
T74 - Board Galley 2 to explore the west

Chariot
T63 - T68 Head to 2S1E of Canal City
T69 + Explore Sitting Bull's lands
T72 - Note if Sitting Bull has Deer, Copper, or a mine with no resource visible which means Iron

Workboat 8 (Located 2E1S of Silver City)
T65 - Move to Crab 2S of Silver City
T66 - Net Crabs for Silver City

Workboat 9 (Located 2W of Cow City)
T65 - Sail to Crabs tiles 2S1W of deer on the way to Clams City
T66 - Sail to 2S of Deer
T67 - T69 Sail towards Clam City
T70 - Net Clams for Clam City

Workboat 10 (Born in Cow City on Turn 77)
T77 - Sail for Whale City to net 3rd seafood on Turn 87

Diplomacy
Espionage on Sitting Bull
T65 - Cancel Crabs gift to Sitting Bull.
T65 - T77 If Sitting Bull demands crabs or a health resource, give it to him. If Sitting Bull demands fur, silver, or horse, tell him NO!
T68 - Open Borders with Sitting Bull to explore his lands.
T70 - If for some strange reason Clams City wants to join the Native American Empire at the start of T70, click NO!
T72 - Note if Sitting Bull has a source of Copper or Deer. Also note if he has a mine on a resource we can't see. That would be iron.
T75 - Cancel Sheep gift to Sitting Bull to fix Silver City
T76 - Give Stone + Deer to Sitting Bull after whipping Duns in Science and Profit City.

Stopping Points
Any World Wonder is completed by the AI
Meet a new AI
Start of Turn 75 is reached
A stack containing more than 1 Sitting Bull military unit is spotted marching towards Canal City.

Notes
Save at the end of each turn please
And check that and matches before pressing next turn.

**Edit**
100% Done!

 

[MirrorGuard]

Opps.
PPP in spreadsheet form...City micro only

 

[MirrorGuard]

T72 - Note if Sitting Bull has a source of Copper or Deer.

Thanks for the reminder. We can gift and pillage fur in silver using warrior 2 if SB has deer. In this case should check whether he has fur too.
Sending warrior 2 to silver adds to flexibility( can pillage fur/ can suppress whip anger in silver) and costs <5gold which is affordable. I think it's a good idea.

Save at the end of each turn please

What is it for? Retrieving demographic and ep data in case I forget to take snapshot? No problem.

The choice we need to make 1st is, should I build workboat or stonehenge starting from T65. Actually it is coupled with civic switch choice after CS is available. If we switch to bureau&caste immediately, silver and whale are where we hatch great scientists. I would prefer building work boat first and priortize population growth. Or we want bureau+ org Religion. Then more SH cash can support us through IW and Mono.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Thanks for the reminder. We can gift and pillage fur in silver using warrior 2 if SB has deer. In this case should check whether he has fur too.
Sending warrior 2 to silver adds to flexibility( can pillage fur/ can suppress whip anger in silver) and costs <5gold which is affordable. I think it's a good idea.

What is it for? Retrieving demographic and ep data in case I forget to take snapshot? No problem.

The choice we need to make 1st is, should I build workboat or stonehenge starting from T65. Actually it is coupled with civic switch choice after CS is available. If we switch to bureau&caste immediately, silver and whale are where we hatch great scientists. I would prefer building work boat first and priortize population growth. Or we want bureau+ org Religion. Then more SH cash can support us through IW and Mono.

Ya, saving at the end of each turn is so if something needs checking the save can be opened and paused immediately.
Then the info can be taken.

It is mentally stressful to do all the moves perfectly and record all the data too with screenshots.
I personally prefer you just focus on the playing and leave data gathering for later, but if you feel up to taking a bunch of screenshots at the end of each turn go for it.

Also if the game crashes or the electricity goes out, there are options if saves each turn are available.


Cow City more workboats?
I like food too!

The team really likes fail gold though.

It is maddening, but until we secure a larger happiness cap it is hard to argue against more fail gold.


As near as I can tell, the team is leaning towards just Bureau switch T79.
We need whips too much to switch to caste just yet.
The bureau switch with the library in capital will let us most efficiently spend our gold.

The bureau capital also might be able to naturally max overflow a Warrior into Mids for garrison duty before we pop iron under a city that we can't gift away.

 

[Mitchum]

Kait's PPP looks good. I'm not at my PC so I can't check MG's Excel file right now.

Green light.

 

[WastinTime]

Rex is using 6t to get 2t of a partial farm.
Critical farm? or Would it be better maybe to pre-chop 2t at Rice-1S
That forest at rice-1S is 2nd ring for 2Clams, but we it will be in our borders immediately (without monument, etc), so it's 30h.

Or, maybe better, just do the phMine for T75 2t early (killing time on a pRoad 1t)