[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

[Kaitzilla]

Education is 2808
At 50 population our empire's Great Scientist bulbs 1650

Currently in our capital, we are 19 turns away from a border pop T114 with no civic changes.
The Library culture doubles on T112, but I'm not sure if that helps.
A University whip would also add +3 culture per turn.

Org. Religion would be nice when we switch back into Slavery.
Would need to adopt Confu at that point to make use of it, so that is 2 turns of anarchy.
Feels like the great Oxford chop would need to occur in about 20 turns around T115.

I feel like we should save our gold and only get Metal Casting, Paper, and Education by T115.
The rest is meeting new AI and trying to get Alphabet + Mono from them.

Then spend our gold horde with +100% Oxford bonus on T116.
Let me scheme

 

[Kaitzilla]

Instead of 11 turns of Caste, we do 17.
We can burn up our 1000 Pyramid gold in about 14 or 15 turns, but we don't.

The 1st GPP is a 97% Great Merchant born in Silver City on T102.
It gets on the galley with Confu missionary and sails to Peter to get us 1100

The 2nd GPP is a 100% Great Scientist born in Silver City on T113.
Bulb Education (2808) complete with 1650
We revolt to Slavery/Org Religion.
Then Confu.
Then on T115 start a University in Science City
T116 whip University with +25% bonus from Org. Religion helping.
T117 Borders pop, all the forests get chopped to 1T Oxford.

T118, we have plenty of gold for Oxford because +6 specialists teched a lot of Metal Casting + Paper + Education for us.
We get our 1100 doing a trade mission to Peter on T114.

This slow play gets us more in the long run and gives us more time to get Alphabet + Monotheism from the 4 new AI since we are in caste 6 more turns.

Our capital can grow to Size 9, put out more missionaries, then start putting hammers into Sankore.
Or maybe build a 120 Forge the slow way.

**Edit**
Would be nice to have 2 gem mines during some of 17 turns of caste if we decide to do it.

 

[WastinTime]

Not a fan of GM
Delays Biology. Delays Oxford.
Not a fan of backing off research. Everything we do has to lead to earlier biology. I believe the critical path is getting our golden ages started (Banking.Parthenon) and the GSs born

 

[LowtherCastle]

Not a fan of GM
Delays Biology. Delays Oxford.
Not a fan of backing off research. Everything we do has to lead to earlier biology. I believe the critical path is getting our golden ages started (Banking.Parthenon) and the GSs born

You’re double-bulbing Educ, right? Sure seems like a 1100g GM is worth more than a 1158b GS. What are your current dates for Educ, etc?

 

[MirrorGuard]

You’re double-bulbing Educ, right? Sure seems like a 1100g GM is worth more than a 1158b GS. What are your current dates for Educ, etc?

2nd GS born at T107. Should be the date for Edu.

The GM looks appealing to me. But he pays a big price for the galley ticket: gpp in science is useless for a long time and canal city can support less than 4 scientists to make sure 2nd GP is in silver. The better way might be: 1st GS in science 2nd GM in silver at T107. Galley( with missionary inside) waits until GM is born.

 

[WastinTime]

It would be nice to take the GS burden away from Science. It's a painful loss of food there. Thinking...

 

[Kaitzilla]

The better way might be: 1st GS in science 2nd GM in silver at T107. Galley( with missionary inside) waits until GM is born.

At 1st I thought there was no way we could wait until around T120 to get our GM gold.
Our slider runs out around T110 I think. (Or T112 with 2 turns of Anarchy switching religion and civics)

But now that I look, we could get T116 GM 1100gold with Silver City GM from T107.
The same turn Oxford comes online after chopping I think.
Let me post the screenshots.

It requires Cowboy up north to make 3 new roads.
Here is the Great Merchant Journey:

Spoiler :

And here is the Faraway Galley Journey:

Spoiler :

**Edit**
Actually, a better road for Whale City would be
T95 - T96 finish current road to hook up fur
T97 - T100 road silver hill 2S2E of Whale City
T101 - T104 road silver mine 1E of Whale City
T105 - T107 road 1W of Whale City

 

[WastinTime]

I got it. You're gonna love this.
We don't really need MC, Machinery yet. And it's only ~6000 to get to Banking.after Edu (25-ish turns after).

We do 6t of caste and produce 1 GS. Making it one less GS we need to get to Biology
Caste is not good since we only have 2 cities that can use it rt now, and no pacifism. But our other cities can use the time to grow.
We're doing caste cus it's a free switch, and it gets us Oxford. Our cities all need to grow and whip infra, so this is not the time to spend 11 or 17 turns in caste.
Screw Mono.

T99 Paper
T102 Bulb 1650 Edu
T106 Finish Education organically
whip Uni, etc. Science is larger now that it didn't run Sci.
Whip temple? etc for OF.
Chop Oxford complete the moment borders expand (which will be earlier now that the Univ came so early)
...
T130 Banking/Merc/Caste/GA

We only need 33 turns of research @-70gpt = only 2300g
to get us all the way to Banking.

 

[WastinTime]

Jesus will be born at the Oxford University Manger.

 

[Kaitzilla]

6T of caste or 11T hmm.

It would be kind of nice to just grow capital and get a Great Scientist in Silver City in 6 turns.

How fast can Moai Statues be completed in Profit City?
I'm worried that without the Great Merchant we will run out of money to run Oxford with only 6T of caste.
1100 into our pocket right as Oxford comes online is very appealing.

If we are going to run 6T of caste to get Great Scientist, how about 0T of caste?
We can just run 2 scientists in capital for 12 turns and get T108 Great Scientist.
Save 1T of anarchy coming out from caste.
The crazy overfed Silver City can whip Courthouse and knock 6 per turn off our bill every turn.

 

[WastinTime]

If we are going to run 6T of caste to get Great Scientist, how about 0T of caste?

Tempting, but I don't like making Science burn 4fpt,and delaying Uni/Ox. Having Science 2-3 pop smaller really hurts Oxford. Especially if we want to start working gems tiles one day.
Still considering this tho...

 

[WastinTime]

Ok, Now I really have it. This will make you not want 0t caste and get on board with the previous plan I just posted.

We do 6t Caste (or possibly entertain the thought of 5t caste (starves Silver) but that's getting off topic)
Then Slavery+OrgRel

If Peter and SB don't meet next couple turns.
We suck it up and research Poly+Mono (330-ish )
T102 : Slavery, OrgRel
Education is delayed 1 or 2 turns.

How do we value OrgRel?
30h -> 37h is really not being fair to OrgRel.

Here's how I calculate it's value. We will run OR for ~30 turns til Banking/Pacifism.
An average city like Clams will give us +240 over those 30t.

That's about 15 population. 5 of those pop we want to still have in the city come Banking
So, we have 10 population to burn per city (might be 7 pop in Profit or 13 pop in Silver/Whales, but let's say 10 on average.)

So, 70 population will get whipped away empire wide during OR

That's an extra 525, or 1050 failigold
Makes up for the 330 we spent.

(edit: and I didn't even include extra hammers we get from forests)

Another way to look at it is this:
Don't think of it as gaining hammers n gold from whips. Think of it as getting the same buildings we want with less population loss.

When we get to Banking, we need size 8+ in low-food cities and 10+ elsewhere.
The more the better, so I don't think we can justify many forge/courthouse whips.
Just Sankore buildings & Universities
OrgRel essentially will give us +2 population per city @ Banking.
And remember, this is the moment we run 40 scientists. No more growth for 21 turns.

Now Silver can build a missionary for Whales.

 

[MirrorGuard]

, how about 0T of caste?

I'm thinking about canal city. It has 40+ G.spy points and big food surplus. If we don't hire specialists, food surplus is wasted. But if we do, our 2nd GS may come from there, contaminated by G.spy points. The question is, do we still want to avoid it? How about using the G.spy on Peter?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ok, Now I really have it. This will make you not want 0t caste and get on board with the previous plan I just posted.

We do 6t Caste (or possibly entertain the thought of 5t caste (starves Silver) but that's getting off topic)
Then Slavery+OrgRel

If Peter and SB don't meet next couple turns.
We suck it up and research Poly+Mono (330-ish )
T102 : Slavery, OrgRel
Education is delayed 1 or 2 turns.

How do we value OrgRel?
30h -> 37h is really not being fair to OrgRel.

Here's how I calculate it's value. We will run OR for ~30 turns til Banking/Pacifism.
An average city like Clams will give us +240 over those 30t.

That's about 15 population. 5 of those pop we want to still have in the city come Banking
So, we have 10 population to burn per city (might be 7 pop in Profit or 13 pop in Silver/Whales, but let's say 10 on average.)

So, 70 population will get whipped away empire wide during OR

That's an extra 525, or 1050 failigold
Makes up for the 330 we spent.

(edit: and I didn't even include extra hammers we get from forests)

Another way to look at it is this:
Don't think of it as gaining hammers n gold from whips. Think of it as getting the same buildings we want with less population loss.

When we get to Banking, we need size 8+ in low-food cities and 10+ elsewhere.
The more the better, so I don't think we can justify many forge/courthouse whips.
Just Sankore buildings & Universities
OrgRel essentially will give us +2 population per city @ Banking.
And remember, this is the moment we run 40 scientists. No more growth for 21 turns.

Now Silver can build a missionary for Whales.

Huh, Peter can't know Monotheism because he would have changed to Org. Religion with Hereditary Rule I think.

This sounds like a good solution I think.
With Org. Religion we can get good whip overflows into Maoi.
2nd Great Person is preserved for later, when Great Scientist > Great Merchant again.

No rush to get Alphabet anymore since we already have Monotheism and don't need it to exit caste anymore.

Silver can spread to Whale ya.

Might even be able to speed up Marble a bit with T102 Slavery.

Nice work WastinTime.
Yes, capital working food and T102 Great Scientist from Silver City sounds very promising.

This will let us cash in Maoi when we run out of money complete Oxford, and will also let us get Oxford as fast as possible.
Our fail gold project would go to Sankore after Maoi.

Maybe think about cashing in 48/50 Dun trick for Moai gold in a few cities.
Whipping max Dun during Org. Religion gets us +15 fail gold from the whip, but -20 fail gold from the overflow hammers into a wonder, so it is -5 overall but not too bad.

I guess that means we will be adopting the Confucian religion sometime soon.

I'm thinking about canal city. It has 40+ G.spy points and big food surplus. If we don't hire specialists, food surplus is wasted. But if we do, our 2nd GS may come from there, contaminated by G.spy points. The question is, do we still want to avoid it? How about using the G.spy on Peter?

Peter will be Friendly with us since no one else can spread religion to him but us. (Unless he techs Theology)
Friendly AI don't really need to be infiltrated by Great Spies since they will trade us anything we want.
I don't think Canal will attempt a great person until 400 or 500gpp so we can try to get an 80% Great Scientist.​

 

[WastinTime]

Nice work WastinTime.

It's great that we keep tossing (decent) ideas out there and work thru the pros and cons.
We mighta just gone ahead with 11t caste if we don't occasionally take the time for brainstorming these ideas.
yay! finally we agree on one. . Now we need the whole team on board.

 

[Mitchum]

Sounds like a great plan to me!

BTW, we only need on University for Oxford in OCC, right? I saw a comment about whipping universities (plural). Are we planning to build then in any other cities or just Science?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Sounds like a great plan to me!

BTW, we only need on University for Oxford in OCC, right? I saw a comment about whipping universities (plural). Are we planning to build then in any other cities or just Science?

Yes, we only need 1 University to start Oxford.

Not sure about other cities.
Depends on how long the game is, how much food the city has, if we have a forge, etc. etc.

 

[WastinTime]

Sounds like a great plan to me!

BTW, we only need on University for Oxford in OCC, right? I saw a comment about whipping universities (plural). Are we planning to build then in any other cities or just Science?

Well, each city should be doing at least 48 base , so a Uni is +12 bpt.
During the (minimum) 21 turns of GS production, that's 252 (plus the usual 20%)
Compare that to a courthouse in Silver. 6 for 21 turns = 126

But Uni is a lot of population and we might be fine/better off without all of them. Working an additional 2 coast tiles for 21 turns (some of those Golden Age) is 100c+. Profit also gets the extra hammer/tile (or 2hpt) from Moai, so I'm pretty certain we don't do one there. Cows also probably has too little food.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Optimization:
1. Minimize non-Rep, non-pac specialists.
2. Minimize hammers wasted on not-required builds for maxOF.
3. Use OR to build necessary bldgs cheaper.
4. Single-bulb Educ.
5. Spread Confu asap for OR.
6. Maximize population before GA.
7. Use fail gold instead

Seems like WT’s plan checks all the boxes.

OR allows us to maxOF 2whip missionaries in high-food cities, without monasteries, and we can priorituze spreading to cities before they need the OR bonus.

 

[WastinTime]

1. Minimize non-Rep specialists.

you mean non-Pacifism?

no chopping complete until OR. Heretic does the tundramine finally (wastes a bit on moving back and forth)