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[BTS] SGOTM 26 - The Indecisive
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Good show. Will have a chance to look it over in about 8 hours . . .
Did so. Have not had time to test and see how many and which cities we can settle how fast (still think we should hold at least one settler in hand), but do have some quick observations:
Like settling S2 in place -- wheat will eventually be irrigated and lake will add a food in time; a relatively good production city, which is not the case with other revealed potential city sites
If we settle S2 in place, then any three-seafood city via S7 should go on tundra 1N, in order to give us an eastern coastal port. Need Slavery to make this city work, so probably wise not to settle until Slavery is at least in sight. (Can explore with S7 until then.)
Prefer S5 to settle on the forest -- that is further from capital and loses a forest but accesses two plains hills
Settling S4 to access silver seems almost mandatory, but perhaps not until we are researching Mininng. Suggest we move S4 onto Silver hill to determine where the best city site is
If we settle a site with S3, then it probably shouldn't be on his present plains hill, because we would need that hill for production -- better 1W, where there are more forests to chop, but may want to explore a little more first
Did so. Have not had time to test and see how many and which cities we can settle how fast (still think we should hold at least one settler in hand), but do have some quick observations:
Like settling S2 in place -- wheat will eventually be irrigated and lake will add a food in time; a relatively good production city, which is not the case with other revealed potential city sites
If we settle S2 in place, then any three-seafood city via S7 should go on tundra 1N, in order to give us an eastern coastal port. Need Slavery to make this city work, so probably wise not to settle until Slavery is at least in sight. (Can explore with S7 until then.)
Prefer S5 to settle on the forest -- that is further from capital and loses a forest but accesses two plains hills
Settling S4 to access silver seems almost mandatory, but perhaps not until we are researching Mininng. Suggest we move S4 onto Silver hill to determine where the best city site is
If we settle a site with S3, then it probably shouldn't be on his present plains hill, because we would need that hill for production -- better 1W, where there are more forests to chop, but may want to explore a little more first
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Did some testing (hard to get exact micromanaging with different research situation in test and real game but effort to update test game much appreciated):
Concluded that two more cities is all than we can settle any time soon and stay solvent while working needed tiles. Prefer to settle two-clam city to SE because it will get us additional commerce quickest with low maintenance.
Best approach I could find was to immediately switch to Myst, though at 0% for enough turns (won't be many) so that amount of gold in treasury divided by 7 (maintenance cost of 3 cities) is equal to or greater than the number of turns to Myst. Then, settle the tundra forest to our SE,, build a wkbt while utilizing the tundra forest hill, and move Myst research to 100% (thereby incurring the -7 maintenance cost per turn).
In testing, this worked out close to getting Myst about the time our wkbt in Vienne comes out, allowing us to then switch to a monument there. Also, found that I could settle plains-hill city east of capital just before Myst came in, but that may not work out in regular game.
Founding a fourth city will force us to research AH at 0% for a long while until our cities grow and additional commerce tiles come into play, but would rather delay research than growth. With four cities, we will be able to catch up in research, and our production capacity will be greatly increased. Others may differ, but four cities this early seems powerful.
Concluded that two more cities is all than we can settle any time soon and stay solvent while working needed tiles. Prefer to settle two-clam city to SE because it will get us additional commerce quickest with low maintenance.
Best approach I could find was to immediately switch to Myst, though at 0% for enough turns (won't be many) so that amount of gold in treasury divided by 7 (maintenance cost of 3 cities) is equal to or greater than the number of turns to Myst. Then, settle the tundra forest to our SE,, build a wkbt while utilizing the tundra forest hill, and move Myst research to 100% (thereby incurring the -7 maintenance cost per turn).
In testing, this worked out close to getting Myst about the time our wkbt in Vienne comes out, allowing us to then switch to a monument there. Also, found that I could settle plains-hill city east of capital just before Myst came in, but that may not work out in regular game.
Founding a fourth city will force us to research AH at 0% for a long while until our cities grow and additional commerce tiles come into play, but would rather delay research than growth. With four cities, we will be able to catch up in research, and our production capacity will be greatly increased. Others may differ, but four cities this early seems powerful.
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By all means test the triple seafood site. Had limited time available, so I did not, because saw greater maintenance cost and just no production there without Slavery. There is eventually more commerce, of course, but lack of production will make building fishing boats and a monument really slow going.
Again, I did not test Sailing next. Before we found more local city sites, Sailing certainly seemed the best next tech. Now, the benefits from pasturing the cow and sheep and the unlikely possibility that horses will show up seem more valuable than the extra commerce, but it's a close call.
Again, I did not test Sailing next. Before we found more local city sites, Sailing certainly seemed the best next tech. Now, the benefits from pasturing the cow and sheep and the unlikely possibility that horses will show up seem more valuable than the extra commerce, but it's a close call.
PPP turn 5-18:
Stop if:
Meeting an AI
Finding significant food resources.
S1/Vienne:
working cow
turn 12
Move work boat south to explore southern island
start monument
turn 13
both pop works forest
turn 18
switch pops to cow and forest
start worker
turn 19
worker moves next to fur
S2:
Walk to Bibracte to lower supply cost
S3:
explore
S4:
NE, N, NE explore
S5:
W and then settle.
turn 5
Start work boat working forested plain hills.
turn 13
work improved clams, start monument
S6/Bibracte:
Continue making worker
turn 5
work sheep
turn 13
move worker E and make farm for 1 turn.
start stonehedge (fail gold)
turn 14
move worker to rice and make farm
turn 18
pop works farm
S7:
explore
Research:
turn 5 start mystisism 100% research
turn 11 start AH 0% for the rest of the session
Stop if:
Meeting an AI
Finding significant food resources.
S1/Vienne:
working cow
turn 12
Move work boat south to explore southern island
start monument
turn 13
both pop works forest
turn 18
switch pops to cow and forest
start worker
turn 19
worker moves next to fur
S2:
Walk to Bibracte to lower supply cost
S3:
explore
S4:
NE, N, NE explore
S5:
W and then settle.
turn 5
Start work boat working forested plain hills.
turn 13
work improved clams, start monument
S6/Bibracte:
Continue making worker
turn 5
work sheep
turn 13
move worker E and make farm for 1 turn.
start stonehedge (fail gold)
turn 14
move worker to rice and make farm
turn 18
pop works farm
S7:
explore
Research:
turn 5 start mystisism 100% research
turn 11 start AH 0% for the rest of the session
Appreciate time put in. Sure would like to see the rest of this team supporting your effort.
Couple of comments:
Understand that by moving 1W and settling on tundra allows use of forested plains hill and earlier wkbt, monument, wkbt. However, that city will lack production. If we settle in place on the tundra forest, then we will eventually have two plains hills to work. Not sure the short term benefits aren't worth the long term loss, but wish you would acknowledge the issue and comment on your choice.
You do not seem to have tested settling a fourth city on the plains hill (have suggested about the time Myst is researched). Again, not certain this is optimal, but you don't seem to have tested or commented on why you have apparently rejected that option.
Really like the tactic of building a wkbt for the three-seafood city and having it ready to sail through the city to establish a crab net as soon as the city is founded.
Couple of comments:
Understand that by moving 1W and settling on tundra allows use of forested plains hill and earlier wkbt, monument, wkbt. However, that city will lack production. If we settle in place on the tundra forest, then we will eventually have two plains hills to work. Not sure the short term benefits aren't worth the long term loss, but wish you would acknowledge the issue and comment on your choice.
You do not seem to have tested settling a fourth city on the plains hill (have suggested about the time Myst is researched). Again, not certain this is optimal, but you don't seem to have tested or commented on why you have apparently rejected that option.
Really like the tactic of building a wkbt for the three-seafood city and having it ready to sail through the city to establish a crab net as soon as the city is founded.
As for settling forest. To me loosing 1 hammer a turn right now and 30 hammers from the forest is worse then loosing 1 hammer a turn later and if we run slavery we will still be better whipping away a pop that works 4 hammers.
As for the wheat city it does cause a significant delay. Maybe it should be settled when rice farm is done and the worker from Vienne can move and improve the fur? working fur the city breaks even.
As for the wheat city it does cause a significant delay. Maybe it should be settled when rice farm is done and the worker from Vienne can move and improve the fur? working fur the city breaks even.
Attachments
Follow that, but thinking it's valuable to settle and grow the city even a little before it can break even. Research is not the only metric of value. Perhaps a compromise?As for settling forest. To me loosing 1 hammer a turn right now and 30 hammers from the forest [understand these losses from settling on forest] is worse then loosing 1 hammer a turn later [Working both mined plains hills later is better by 2 hammers than working one and a plains forest (plus there would be a plains forest also available to a forest-tundra-settled city), so this is confusing -- please clarify] and if we run slavery we will still be better whipping away a pop that works 4 hammers. Would seem to limit us to constant whipping, and don't you anticipate that we will be in Caste System later?
As for the wheat city it does cause a significant delay. Maybe it should be settled when rice farm is done and the worker from Vienne can move and improve the fur? working fur the city breaks even.
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We have a tundra hill to the west which so if we want to mine a hill we have a 3 hammer tile instead of a 4 hammer tile. In other words we loose 1 hammer a turn for any turns where we want to work two no food hills. We will probably be working plains cottages instead anyway.
Settling wheat gives us one more worker which may become very useful. I also want to see what we can find on the island to the south before committing too many settlers. An overseas city will give us +1 commerce in every city and if we can find stone that would be a massive advantage. Settling triple seafood would allow us to explore the island to the north as well.
Settling wheat gives us one more worker which may become very useful. I also want to see what we can find on the island to the south before committing too many settlers. An overseas city will give us +1 commerce in every city and if we can find stone that would be a massive advantage. Settling triple seafood would allow us to explore the island to the north as well.
Concur with all that. Five cities on the continent looks pretty good at this point. Unless you explore and find something exciting in the NW, don't see why this eliminates utility of wheat city.We have a tundra hill to the west which so if we want to mine a hill we have a 3 hammer tile instead of a 4 hammer tile. In other words we loose 1 hammer a turn for any turns where we want to work two no food hills. There's only one tundra hill on my map. If you settle west, then you can work that (which gains a hammer in the short-term over settling in place), but long term (after expansion) settling in place provides the potential to work two mined plains hills (or that forested plains hill and a mined plains hill), which is two hammers better. We will probably be working plains cottages instead anyway. Aren't we going to need to build some stuff, certainly a wonder?
Settling wheat gives us one more worker which may become very useful. I also want to see what we can find on the island to the south before committing too many settlers. An overseas city will give us +1 commerce in every city and if we can find stone that would be a massive advantage. Settling triple seafood would allow us to explore the island to the north as well.
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Concur with all that. Five cities on the continent looks pretty good at this point. Unless you explore and find something exciting in the NW, don't see why this eliminates utility of wheat city.
I would prefer a luxury resource. The more I look at wheat city the worse it looks to me. It has a 4 F tile and a 2 F tile and it does not get us any new resources.
Even now silver city has two 4 food tiles and gets us silver which will allow us to grow our cities.
I think the misunderstanding relates to my considering the forested tundra hill, which is available to both city sites, as tangential to the argument, while you are using it to get a total of 7 hammers. Settling 1W does not provide but one plains hill, the one now covered with forest. Settling the forested tundra provides two plains hills, the one covered by forest and the one 1E,1NE, available when the city expands. The 1W city site only provides a forested plain (in addition to the forested tundra hill) giving 2 hammers. That's a two hammer difference in production. (And the forested tundra site will also provide a plains forest 1NE,1N with expansion).I do not understand your counting. 2 mined plain hills give 4 + 4 hammers. one mined plain hill and one mined tundra hill gives 4+3 hammers. How do you get two extra hammers?
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