[BTS] SGOTM 26 - The Indecisive

[Cactus Pete]

Silver city certainly is much better, though how soon we should settle it is a question. Are you considering that Wheat city will have an additional food from the lake with a lighthouse and won't the farmed wheat become a 5F source with irrigation?

 

[Folket]

I think the misunderstanding relates to my considering the forested tundra hill, which is available to both city sites, as tangential to the argument, while you are using it to get a total of 7 hammers. Settling 1W does not provide but one plains hill, the one now covered with forest. Settling the forested tundra provides two plains hills, the one covered by forest and the one 1E,1NE, available when the city expands. The 1W city site only provides a forested plain (in addition to the forested tundra hill) giving 2 hammers. That's a two hammer difference in production. (And the forested tundra site will also provide a plains forest 1NE,1N with expansion).

No, I'm referring to the tundra hill to the west. Which is not in range if we settle in place.

In total we loose 1 plain hill, 1 coast and 1 ocean and we gain 1 tundra hill, 2 plains and 1 forest.

 

[Folket]

Silver city certainly is much better, though how soon we should settle it is a question. Are you considering that Wheat city will have an additional food from the lake with a lighthouse and won't the farmed wheat become a 5F source with irrigation?

Yes, I have considered that. But silver city will have lighthouse before we have civil service giving it 2 5F tiles. Triple sea food city will have 3 5F tiles.

An option would be to settle E of wheat which gives it a sea food tile. But I think triple sea food with Moai statues is better in the long run.

 

[Cactus Pete]

No, I'm referring to the tundra hill to the west. [W, SW, correct?] Which is not in range if we settle in place.

In total we loose 1 plain hill, 1 coast and 1 ocean and we gain 1 tundra hill, 2 plains and 1 forest.

Well, it's taken three days, but understanding has been achieved. Appreciate your patience. Do settle 1W. Concur, short term advantage is greater than loss of one hammer.

Don't like east of wheat. Not sure we don't want to settle both wheat and silver eventually, but no problem with Silver City founded first. Do explore the silver hill before settling.

No one else is participating, so precede with your plan.

 

[Folket]

turn 6
found wine to the east
found second silver and fur to the north west

turn 7
found Sitting bull in the east with silk.
found two more crabs in the north west

turn 8
Buddhism was founded, not in Cahokia

turn 10
Found fur, silver, crab, clam and deer city in the west.

turn 11
found second silver and second clam in the west.

Spoiler :

Turn 5, 3800 BC: Tolosa has been founded.

Turn 7, 3720 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 9, 3640 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 10, 3600 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!

 

[Folket]

I can update the test game tomorrow. I suggest that I continue with the current plan for two more turns and explore the western resource area before we run test games to determine a good time to settle it. It feels like a city with 7 resources is going to be good.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I can update the test game tomorrow. I suggest that I continue with the current plan for two more turns and explore the western resource area before we run test games to determine a good time to settle it. Makes sense. Please do. It feels like a city with 7 resources is going to be good.

I don't see how we can utilize more than 6, but that should be sufficient, especially as we can immediately net crabs. Not settling wheat city any time soon, if at all, looking wise.

Don't see how these new discoveries of resources/city site changes relative value of AH, but interested in your thoughts.

Looks like we may have chosen the less optimal capital city site, but probably not critical.

Let's see what's on that southern land mass.

 

[Folket]

Found more resources in the west. Found marble on southern island.

Spoiler log :

Turn 13, 3480 BC: Vienne has grown to size 2.

 

[Folket]

Updated the test game.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We have more good city sites than we have settlers, if you count the marble island.

Appreciate your updating the test map. Is there a particular scenario you'd like me to test?

 

[Folket]

Hi. I just got very busy. Perhaps go on to the next player who could take 20 turns?

To me the foremost question is much does it cost to make western resource city to break even and what can we do to speed it up?
I would not commit to marble island. But there may be more resources there. But having such a weak city does not feel good.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Would very much welcome someone else on the team checking in and stepping up.

In the meantime, I will try to do some testing. If no one shows up, I will eventually go ahead and play, as we are well behind other folks.

Folket, will you at least have time for some discussion, post testing?

 

[Folket]

Yes, I will be around, test alternatives to your plan and look at your micro.

 

[Cactus Pete]

RL intervened a bit, but I have tested and propose the following . . .

Test-Based Plan:

This turn (16, I think) – Leave AH Research at 0%. Move settler now on fur E, NE, E to prepare to settle that city (call it 6R, for its 6 resources) next. [Testing showed we could get a wkbt built in Vienne (switched immediately from monument) there about the time we would complete AH and want to establish another city. The available wkbt, makes it a better choice than the other NW site about 8 tiles west of 6R. The canal city site is a reasonable option, but I prefer to get 6R up and growing.]

Also, this turn -- Begin moving other NW settler, now 1E of crabs, toward potential city site about 8 tiles west of 6R. Switch Vienne to wkbt (see above). This calculated delay of monument slows the expansion and growth of Vienne, but found this is offset by the ability to get other cities up and growing with netted seafood immediately available. It also slows the need for a wkbt in Vienne, allowing the wkbt now exploring Marble Island great flexibility, depending on what it finds and on what team decides. Its options include (1) further exploration of land that may appear, (2) circling the island, with turns to spare if the island is a bit bigger than expected, and proceeding to Tolosa to net its other clams, or (3) circling the island and proceeding toward the future Canal City site to cast its net there. #3 is what I did in the test game submitted for your perusal below and is the choice I prefer given present knowledge.

T18 -- put Research at 100% AH

T19 -- wkr#1 completes farm and moves into capital (next turn it will farm the plain’s tile 1NW for one turn, then farm the wine; Vienne completes wkbt, which heads for 6R site, and returns to building monument

T24 – Micromanage cities to max commerce in order to get AH next turn without going in the red,

T25 – AH completed; Research at 0% [Chose Sailing for commerce and lighthouse, slight preference over Mining and Bronze working or Wheel and Pottery]; Wine farm completed and put to use, and wkr farms same plain’s tile one turn before pasturing sheep; Micromanage cities for better production and growth, though Vienne has no use for wkbt until monument’s expansion effect, so it can max commerce.

T26 (3000BC) – Establish 6R and net seafood; Tolosa completes monument and begins wkbt for its own clams, micromanaging to complete as city expands.

T27 – Found Canal City, build monument, and move wkbt through onto seafood to net next turn; Commerce is now at only 2 gold, even at 0% Research, but we are set to grow 5 good cities pretty fast.

On T28, Bib will have grown to size three and should switch Stonehenge to a worker. When wkr completes sheep pasture, it should proceed immediately west, as plains tile does not need to be farmed while city is not growing (building a worker). The new worker can complete the plain's farm.

Of course, would pause if something interesting/unexpected occurs.

Will wait 48 hours for feedback. If none is received, will go ahead and execute the plan, as we are way behind.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I would prefer not to proceed without feedback and discussion. That is inconsistent with the spirit, the raison d'être of SGOTM.

It's a holiday weekend, so i'm going to wait another 24 hours.

 

[Folket]

I think you should explore south of 6 R to make sure there are not more sea resources there. Did you try to settle 6R S or 2S of deer? On which tile were you planing a city west of 6R?

I think we should delay canal city until we have sailing.

Looking at 6R it seems like it will waste a lot of potential until we have mining. Maybe tech AH then mining and settle 6R so that it finishes worker the turn before mining finishes?

There is one turn of farm built E of capital. Would it be better to add an other turn to that instead?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Pleased to hear from you. I was beginning to feel lonely.

I think you should explore south of 6 R to make sure there are not more sea resources there. Couldn't do that in the test game, of course, but should have included in the plan. Did you try to settle 6R S or 2S of deer? I did not, because a four-food resource city should prove extremely valuable. Don't like 1S of deer at all, as it does not provide an immediate seafood to net before expansion. 2S swaps a seafood for a silver mine. That will take longer to take advantage of than the seafood. Do you like 2S better than 6R? On which tile were you planing a city west of 6R I was planning it exactly where the settler ends up in the test game -- directly south of both silvers and able to utilize both. Had given little thought to 6th city, though. Thinking that settler might best be held in hand. If I find a better site to the west, I will leave him there. Interested in your thoughts.

I think we should delay canal city until we have sailing. Why? We can immediately net seafood after settling, and by the time a monument is built and we have expansion, Tolosa can supply additional workboats. Are you thinking we will need a lighthouse there to make it valuable? It's going to be extremely slow building a lths before the city expands and we can take advantage of the tundra forest (and the other forests that a growing seafood city will be able to utilize).

Looking at 6R it seems like it will waste a lot of potential until we have mining. Maybe tech AH then mining and settle 6R so that it finishes worker the turn before mining finishes? On this issue, we may have some real disagreement that we need to discuss: No doubt it has more potential with mining, but it has plenty of potential without it, and the sooner we get it growing the better. If we settle it as in the test game (after we got AH researched and a wkbt there to net a seafood), then, like Canal City, by the time it builds a monument and expands, Vienne will be able to supply immediate workboats for the newly available seafood. We should have Sailing by then, and can start building a lths. (As you suggest, definitely wood want to eventually send a worker there to coincide with completion of Mining.) Is the premise of your argument, that the city, without a silver mine, would require more maintenance than it produces commerce? My counter is that getting that city (or perhaps another in the same area) up and growing is well worth the loss in Immediate research, and the city needs to grow to be able to fully take advantage of the commerce from the silver and beaver..

There is one turn of farm built E of capital. Would it be better to add an other turn to that instead?

I don't think so. The tile I farmed in the test allows the worker to go directly toward the sheep when AH comes in, pausing a turn to farm in order not to waste a turn. If I move him from the wine to farm the tile 1E of the capital, then the pasturing of the sheep is delayed. Also, since the plan is to build a worker as soon as Bib gets to pop3, there is no immediate need for a farm on either tile, so pasturing the sheep is first priority.

 

[Folket]

Pleased to hear from you. I was beginning to feel lonely.

I don't think so. The tile I farmed in the test allows the worker to go directly toward the sheep when AH comes in, pausing a turn to farm in order not to waste a turn. If I move him from the wine to farm the tile 1E of the capital, then the pasturing of the sheep is delayed. Also, since the plan is to build a worker as soon as Bib gets to pop3, there is no immediate need for a farm on either tile, so pasturing the sheep is first priority.

Sorry for being lost. It is really hard to get back into the habit. I look away and a week has past without me thinking about civ 4. You are probably correct about farm placement. I just wanted to make sure you knew about the farm with one turn in already.

As for 6R city. Could you play the test game up to having sailing and mining it will be a good point to compare different strategies. It will allow us to see how much growth we get and what it has cost us. I'm not so worried about growing our cities. Once we have slavery and granary these cities will become useful really fast. So I'm more worried about them slowing our progress to that.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sorry for being lost. It is really hard to get back into the habit. I look away and a week has past without me thinking about civ 4. You are probably correct about farm placement. I just wanted to make sure you knew about the farm with one turn in already. Understood. You're desperately needed. I'm pretty inexperienced with BtS. Wish others would show up too.

As for 6R city. Could you play the test game up to having sailing and mining it will be a good point to compare different strategies. It will allow us to see how much growth we get and what it has cost us. Happy to do that today. Will continue the test game posted above (ignoring the settler I sent to the double silver site to the east of 6R, as in the real game I should definitely explore that NW peninsula fully before moving him, if at all) researching Sailing and Mining after AH. I'm not so worried about growing our cities. They do grow fast once the seafoods are netted, and that certainly facilitates commerce and aids production as well, even before Pottery and Slavery.. Once we have slavery and granary these cities will become useful really fast. So I'm more worried about them slowing our progress to that.

Certainly agree that they will become powerful. I'll test and post, and you can make an assessment.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Test to Mining is below.

This approach is about 5 turns away from showing its effectiveness. Take into consideration:

Both 6R and Canal City each have two workboats either available (workboat exploring sheep island can get back in time to net seafood with expansion).or being built in time to complete with city expansion; plus, a worker is on the silver to mine and will be able road it immediately upon completion of mine, a worker is mining plains hill for Vienne, a worker is on tundra hill to mine it for Bib, and another is in route to mine tundra hill for Canal City. Lighthouses are being built.

Once 4 seafoods are netted, superior growth with good research potential going forward.