SittinDown
King
Hard for me to argue with that.
[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I used to have some experience doing fast AP victory, but this is totally different. Recall that we'd have to avoid Mass Media (which enables broadcast towers which we need in artist city). That means we'd need to build Eiffel Tower in the Merchant city with a forge after Radio. I have difficulty seeing how that is much better than building the UN after Mass Media in the Merchant city, since we'd only need 66% (instead of 75%) to win the victory. But the AP would have to be in the Prophet City, so two cities would be locked with RV, and only 1 with UN. We need a good tech rate anyhow, so the tech for MM is inconsequential. But we can only choose one or the other, not both (due to Merchant city limitations).
AP strategy would be to aim at founding 2 religions. The state religion (SR) while building AP has to be a religion whose spread we can parcel out only carefully, so Christianity maybe. You spread the other religion (the first one we found) as liberally as possible, switch to it and switch all our friend targets to it, to build up +diplo. Enemies get only a little christian to activate the voting, reliable friends get enough for votes but not so much they convert to it. We get max christian and vote on the victory, switch to christianity to double our votes, and win. Needless to say earliest Astro possible would greatly facilitate spreading, and building diplo points. Bulbing Astro with GSci requires that we avoid Meditation, so it would be Poly>PH>CoL then Monoth>Theo (Theo can be bulbed with GPro).
That's aside from worker techs etc that we need. AP is easier to control votes than UN, and gives a good bonus to buildings, so I could get onboard with giving it a shot. We can (and probably will have to) kill anyone who would block our vote victory. Just recall that we have a lot of tech to get thru and that is the bottleneck if we want AP (or any) victory.
Just sayin.
AP strategy would be to aim at founding 2 religions. The state religion (SR) while building AP has to be a religion whose spread we can parcel out only carefully, so Christianity maybe. You spread the other religion (the first one we found) as liberally as possible, switch to it and switch all our friend targets to it, to build up +diplo. Enemies get only a little christian to activate the voting, reliable friends get enough for votes but not so much they convert to it. We get max christian and vote on the victory, switch to christianity to double our votes, and win. Needless to say earliest Astro possible would greatly facilitate spreading, and building diplo points. Bulbing Astro with GSci requires that we avoid Meditation, so it would be Poly>PH>CoL then Monoth>Theo (Theo can be bulbed with GPro).
That's aside from worker techs etc that we need. AP is easier to control votes than UN, and gives a good bonus to buildings, so I could get onboard with giving it a shot. We can (and probably will have to) kill anyone who would block our vote victory. Just recall that we have a lot of tech to get thru and that is the bottleneck if we want AP (or any) victory.
Just sayin.
SittinDown
King
good thoughts kcd.
Meta analysis of all victory types:
Meta analysis of all victory types:
- AP is intricate, and I've never done a late AP victory beyond chieftan, where i was just goofing around.
- Conquest is straight-forward - in this case, probably means go for astro and cannons. but could be tough to balance conquest and building - unless we can manage to beat down our opposition early enough that we just coast our way to building at the end. seems pretty unlikely given the semi-isolation. seems like we'd be island hopping for a long time, and diverting tons of hammers to units.
- domination is impossible.
- space and culture seem like backup plans if AP / Conq don't work out. Any wild ideas out there on how Space or Culture might be faster or easier, or otherwise viable as a primary option?
- there's always Time victory.
Good analysis, it feels like it all boils down to we need to make a decision about what's oversea before we know what's oversea...
If someone could just flip a coin at this moment I would accept that path. Maybe tech wheel first to hope for something good.
If someone could just flip a coin at this moment I would accept that path. Maybe tech wheel first to hope for something good.
Someone will win before 1600AD, and with only 7 cities (most mediocre) I doubt space is a winner. But I've heard of folks doing it faster than that, just not me.
Culture has some built-in advantages-only 1 temple is enough for a cathedral, we're going all the way to broadcast towers (Hollywood, Broadway, RnR) and corps (sushi). The downside is food to feed a bunch of artists or work a bunch of cottages - I'd almost say you could skip artist specialists until sushi, and cottages are a non-starter. The wild card is religion (and not getting attacked by aggressive AI). How many religions can we reasonably expect to get? 3-4 max, since we can't place a city just to get the spread, or capture a city already having one. After sushi it could go quick, but not until then. I'd say its such an unconventional culture victory strategy needed, it should be used as a back-up if we mess up diplo so bad that AP/UN won't fly.
In every VC we choose, though, our next move should be finding metal for the next city, and enabling galleys if its somewhere outside our blocked off territory. But granaries early for growth will speed everything up, and we'll need to hook things up with roads. So if we focus on the near-term (which is similar for all VC) we could get the game moving again. Who knows? Maybe some decisions get easier with more knowledge.
Culture has some built-in advantages-only 1 temple is enough for a cathedral, we're going all the way to broadcast towers (Hollywood, Broadway, RnR) and corps (sushi). The downside is food to feed a bunch of artists or work a bunch of cottages - I'd almost say you could skip artist specialists until sushi, and cottages are a non-starter. The wild card is religion (and not getting attacked by aggressive AI). How many religions can we reasonably expect to get? 3-4 max, since we can't place a city just to get the spread, or capture a city already having one. After sushi it could go quick, but not until then. I'd say its such an unconventional culture victory strategy needed, it should be used as a back-up if we mess up diplo so bad that AP/UN won't fly.
In every VC we choose, though, our next move should be finding metal for the next city, and enabling galleys if its somewhere outside our blocked off territory. But granaries early for growth will speed everything up, and we'll need to hook things up with roads. So if we focus on the near-term (which is similar for all VC) we could get the game moving again. Who knows? Maybe some decisions get easier with more knowledge.
SittinDown
King
- I've won space before 1600, but not with 7 cities!
- Even in OCC - if you have 3 cities, you need 3 cities with legendary culture. at least, that's what I saw in my test game.
SittinDown
King
ok - so, I'm thinking Wheel / BW or Sailing are next best choices.
Anyone know if SB will trade anything with us in Semi-Isolation if we get Alpha?
- Wheel - lets us hook up resources for Happy Cap. Opens up Pottery.
- Sailing - discussed before.
- BW - obvious.
Anyone know if SB will trade anything with us in Semi-Isolation if we get Alpha?
Sb won't trade with us now
Our commitment to a long term strategy now is most because of the oracle. Bw/iw wheel/pot or sailing are al good techs that could increase or economy with something like 5-10 gp per turn. But if we compare that with a missed oracle tech for 500-1000 beakers it's like the delay of one of the worker tech must be 50-200 turns for it to be comparable. I don't think we can squeeze in al 5 tech's before but maybe 1 or 2.
Our commitment to a long term strategy now is most because of the oracle. Bw/iw wheel/pot or sailing are al good techs that could increase or economy with something like 5-10 gp per turn. But if we compare that with a missed oracle tech for 500-1000 beakers it's like the delay of one of the worker tech must be 50-200 turns for it to be comparable. I don't think we can squeeze in al 5 tech's before but maybe 1 or 2.
SittinDown
King
Could oracle MC too. Not as good, but open up forges everywhere. Oracle MC seems better for industrial leaders though.
Well, Oracle prevents us from owning/controlling the AP. So we are commited to a conquest, UN, culture or space victory. UN would probably be fastest, but it would be most opportune to get Astro - pipe dream, I know. Maybe Optics?
Normally, if I go for UN, the religion techs get lower priority and oracle forces an early priority on two of them. If
had marble or were Ind I'd feel a lot better about oracle.
I don't know anything. But if we want a chance to suprise with a fast finish, AP is a good bet. It could all go horribly wrong, though. If we oracle, probably optics or something in the astro line would be good. But we need good tech rate to get trades and bribe folks into wars... so librarys everywhere is high priority.
I'm no help, I know.
Normally, if I go for UN, the religion techs get lower priority and oracle forces an early priority on two of them. If
had marble or were Ind I'd feel a lot better about oracle.
I don't know anything. But if we want a chance to suprise with a fast finish, AP is a good bet. It could all go horribly wrong, though. If we oracle, probably optics or something in the astro line would be good. But we need good tech rate to get trades and bribe folks into wars... so librarys everywhere is high priority.
I'm no help, I know.
@kcd_swede
Don't downgrade yourself, you are as valuable to the team as anybody else.
It feels like our next move is wheel and sailing and then we reevaluate again? Am I right?
Don't downgrade yourself, you are as valuable to the team as anybody else.
It feels like our next move is wheel and sailing and then we reevaluate again? Am I right?
SittinDown
King
@kcd_swede - agreed with Zhary. I find everyone's comments here helpful and useful.
I like wheel / sailing next.
Does that mean we have decided to skip Oracle then?
I like wheel / sailing next.
Does that mean we have decided to skip Oracle then?
I think after wheel>sailing we are still not committed to Oracle or AP. Maybe something happens like we get surreptitious religion spread that would affect the balance. So lets decide not to make a choice. Yet. Are we agreed on wheel>sailing regardless of wider strategy, then lets go. Who's gonna take it? I'm happy to do the turns if I have a PPP to follow.
SittinDown
King
Ok - kcd - you can play the turns. I'll put together a basic PPP tonight - though it's pretty straightfowrad. Keep scouting SB with work boats. Improve resources. Build roads to connect happy resources once we can. Keep filling up the fail gold on SH but don't build it. Get libraries, especially in commerce cities. Would be nice to send a WB West for scouting - maybe built in the capital once the library is finished.
SittinDown
King
My question for Oracle was more around Zhary's concern that if we spend time on other techs, we might miss out - especially for a CS sling.
Well I had 10 minutes over today to look at the save and next time I could open civ is probably a week away. So I be here planning and thinking but don't expect me to take a turn set in the next month.
@SittinDown
I think the decision is to skip cs sling to keep astro bulb open. Aest, Mc or machinery might still be an option.
Some observations I made from my look:
The library in bib is 6 turns away we should collect money until then and then run the slider at 100%. Or worker over at gregovia would stay idle for 4 turns then but 25% of bibs 20 commerce is worth more.
Net the seafood in tolosa and dont forget to switch the tile.
Bib should finish the wb after the lib so the hammes dont go to waste.
Time the movement of the central worker with the research for the wheel. So it can start to road the fur at the same time. It's more important to get the happy out of it than farm some boring plains.
@SittinDown
I think the decision is to skip cs sling to keep astro bulb open. Aest, Mc or machinery might still be an option.
Some observations I made from my look:
The library in bib is 6 turns away we should collect money until then and then run the slider at 100%. Or worker over at gregovia would stay idle for 4 turns then but 25% of bibs 20 commerce is worth more.
Net the seafood in tolosa and dont forget to switch the tile.
Bib should finish the wb after the lib so the hammes dont go to waste.
Time the movement of the central worker with the research for the wheel. So it can start to road the fur at the same time. It's more important to get the happy out of it than farm some boring plains.
SittinDown
King
PPP:
(I find myself recommending more libraries than usual due to lack of sailing, no need for settlers, and crap tiles making scientists attractive.)
Units:
- Slider to 0% until Bib is done with library. (+5 BPT)
- Bib works furs as soon as library is done, instead of Deer. Then finish WB, then SH until it maxes out without building it.
- Vienne - Warrior move to Tolosa. Put hammers into SH next turn - and then stop. Maybe one more warrior, for cheap MP. Then a library. Build a chariot when it can. Don't want to be too weak on military.
- Tolosa - Switch from forest plains to improved furs next turn. Worker begins mining PH's until wheel, then roads from wheat to furs. Put hammers into SH after Bib maxes out, or library.
- Gergovia builds warrior next. Then another WB, then library.
(I find myself recommending more libraries than usual due to lack of sailing, no need for settlers, and crap tiles making scientists attractive.)
Units:
- Workboat near north island sheep to explore SB's north coast. Pay careful attention to corners, might get lucky, probably won't.
- Workboat on Clam by Tolosa improves it next turn.
- Workboat by SB keeps exploring coast down there.
- Workboat on our South coast cuts through Poverty Point and explores SB's North/East coast.
- Bib's workboat upcoming will scout Western islands - prefer South coast to North coast.
- Gergovia's WB will improve crab. Work the silver instead of the coast to speed up the workboat - the WB will finish slightly before the border pop, so make sure it's in place to improve the fish on as soon as borders pop. Worker improves horses, then furs, then roads the silver. Gonna be a nice city.
SittinDown
King
Wheel should be done in 9 turns - 6 to wait for library, and 3 to tech. SB looks like he has wheel, so we'll get a little boost there.
Hopefully someone cashes in SH for us by then, and we can 100% sailing right away. Should be ~6 turns to tech it?
If that PPP gets lost after 10 turns, feel free to stop and we can take another look.
Hopefully someone cashes in SH for us by then, and we can 100% sailing right away. Should be ~6 turns to tech it?
If that PPP gets lost after 10 turns, feel free to stop and we can take another look.
Doesn't we produce a warrior to much here? One in Vienna and one in Gregovia, I think it would be enough with the one from V.
Otherwise green
I was thinking about the endgame and great person. If we take the biology road to labs then the only corporations we can found is by engineer. However if we go by plastics/computer a scientist could found standard oil. What I'm thinking about is if we should go for mids and forge to get an engineer out early to hang around to the endgame.
Otherwise green
I was thinking about the endgame and great person. If we take the biology road to labs then the only corporations we can found is by engineer. However if we go by plastics/computer a scientist could found standard oil. What I'm thinking about is if we should go for mids and forge to get an engineer out early to hang around to the endgame.
SittinDown
King
Ok - works for me. Vienne skips warrior, and starts right on a library after it maxes SH fail gold.
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