SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[denyd]

I should be able to juggle the builds to time Hoover & TOE. Where would a good place for the Academy be? It's probably a city that will need about 50 available turns (20 for the MA and 30 for 2 armies). It would be nice to have a city with 50spt to pop out armies every 8 turns (they are 400shield I think).

I need to be sure that the Hoover city has a river (never make the same mistake twice, always find a new one use to be my motto).

 

[Jove]

Isn't that an exploit? Joining workers to draft them as units immediately? I sense this technique might be disallowed. Please check before applying.

It's not. Really! We gain 22 shields, but because we lose the worker and take the happiness hit, it's considered a fair trade. Neat huh? We are sitting on a mountain of shields... We just need to be careful not to make big corrupt cities too unhappy.
And of course, we don't have to draft them all. Just joining them will yield lots of beakers. Without looking at the save, I'm not sure if it's practical to build still more workers. But I hope so

 

[AlanH]

Please read this post for discussion and comment.

 

[Jove]

So, the tail end of this game involves us getting nuked by India, bravely sticking it out and praying for him to leave the planet already...

 

[denyd]

I suggest we bee-line for SDI as soon as we get India to full SS status.

I'm just about done with my set and should be able to post the game soon.

 

[denyd]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Jeffelammar_SG009_AD1200_01.SAV

Turn Log 3

Turn 0 – 1150 AD – Not much to change – Confirm that Celts have Military Tradition

IBT: Edrine court->police – Celts build Universal Suffrage in Entremont

Turn 1 – 1160 AD – Lots of forestry operations – Switch Trondheim to coal plant – Switch Stavanger to Theory of Evolution and slow down the builds in both cities by hiring bankers

IBT: Karakorum worker->worker – Bergen Stock Exchange->Barracks – Odense Bank->Stock Exhange

Turn 2 – 1170 AD – A bit of forestry, but I’m running out of tiles to work on. There’s still some by the wonder cities but that would be wasted. I’m improving a couple of hills & mountains – It will cost Electricity to get Military Tradition and that’s too expensive – Switch Trondheim to Cruiser as it won’t need a coal plant once Hoover is complete and I don’t want to trade Electricity to Brennus yet

IBT: Bergen barracks->infantry – Aarhus bank->stock exchange – Uskudar aqueduct->market – Bodo market->factory – Hammerfest settler->aqueduct – Neu Stockholm settler->court

Turn 3 – 1180 AD – Roads, mines, plant and cut some trees – Send a pair of settlers to Celtic island – Convert about 12 scientist to taxmen and reduce research to 90% but still get AT in IBT – Now with 456g & -55gpt

IBT: Discover Atomic Theory research Electronics – Research rate back to 100% - Molde Infantry-Infantry – Vadso court->market – Lose Wool & Wines

Turn 4 – 1190 AD – By hiring a bunch of Scientists I get the research time to 4 turns @ 100%, but our treasury is at 401 with –193gpt – Trade Incense to Celts for WM + 6g + 26gpt – Trade Silks to Celts for 12gpt – Now stand at 407g & -153gpt

IBT: Alesund harbor->wealth – Riot in Tromoso

Turn 5 – 1200 AD – Join a couple of workers to allow for a few more taxmen (now 254g & -145gpt) – Primarily a mining & railroading turn with a little bit of forestry thrown in for good measure

Ok here’s the good news we’ve got a nicely timed pre-build for Hoover going in Stavanger that will finish TOE the same turn the research on Electronics is done in 3 turns (we will need about 8-9 more turns to complete it once we turn up the shields to full available) . We managed to research Electronics in 4 turns thanks to lots of scientists. We’ve also got a solid pre-build for the Internet going in Channel City. Now the bad news, we’ve only got 254g in the treasury and are losing 145gpt. We are weak against the Celts with barely 50 combat units (of the 144 units, 90+ are workers). I’m not really sure how Jove is going to make this work but I have complete confidence in his abilities. I had a thought that a single turn of negative gold would only cost us 1 building and 1 unit, but I’m not sure if that’s exploitive. Sorry about leaving Tromso in riot state (that one caught both me and MapStat by surprise). I did not do any micromanaging, but be careful with the Scientists as even one less will delay the discovery.

 

[CKS]

How do things look for a ToE build? We need to get that timed correctly, too. If we can't get done in time to take our first modern techs because of the US problem, we can delay it a few turns while we research a cheap (?) one, as long as we can delay our Internet build, too.

I think there are some issues to think about with regard to the new proposed end-of-game. If we need to get Ghandi to build the ship, then we should learn all the techs before giving them to Ghandi. If he needs to build the Apollo program and learn all the necessary techs, then we should leave him some to research while he thinks about building Apollo, as this will evidently take a long time. The important thing will be to get him well into the modern age quickly, and let him finish the research himself while we wait the many turns before he decides to start the Apollow program, instead of doing all the research first. I'm not sure how I feel right now. Clearly, we can change our strategy at this point, but other teams cannot, because they have moved rather farther along.

 

[TimBentley]

Some core cities can fire specialists for higher income. Look at Stockholm as a place for ToE.

 

[Jove]

Nice work denyd, and thanks for the vote of confidence.
I'm just checking in, I won't have any time until tomorrow. I'm quite open to suggestion.

What does everyone else think about the endgame? In the maintenece thread Klarius didn't sound very happy with the unexpected 100+ turns his team is going through. Does everyone want to stick it out, or is Apollo a good enough finish line?

 

[jeffelammar]

I had a thought that a single turn of negative gold would only cost us 1 building and 1 unit, but I’m not sure if that’s exploitive.

I didn't see it on the list of exploits, but I am 99% sure that it is a banned exploit. The cost just isn't close to the benefit.

By the way, nice job. Worst case scenario Jove will have to dial back the research 1 turn and also the prebuild. Not ideal, but we don't want TOE right now

 

[Jove]

OK, I'm back and ready to examine the save, MM, etc. This could take awhile. I need to think about what we're doing with wonders. Anyone want to give me a re-cap?

 

[denyd]

Stavinger is the pre-build for Hoover
Channel City is the pre-build for Internet

The plan is to research Electronics then Mass Production and Motorized Transportation. Use Mass Prod & Sci Meth to acquire Flight from Celts. That will put us in the Modern Era. Gift the Ottomans to the Modern Era. Complete the TOE (in a TBD city) and take techs to get to Minitaurization and have Channel City complete the Internet.

 

[Jove]

Preliminary thoughts: sheesh, you've really got it Exactly at 4 turn research, don't you?

I might switch Leptis Minor to an aquaduct. How about Market -> Police Station in Tromoso? The aquaduct in New Rejkavik could be rushed for 16g, then stuffed. Thunderfall is 88 shields away from an aquaduct: 4 disbanded infantry will yield an aquaduct there with only 1 shield wasted. Karasjok could have an aquaduct next turn with a disbanded infantry, there are a few other spots where productive citizens could be stuffed... I'm thinking that aquaducts and pop stuffing will be the only way to maintain 4-turn research and not go broke.
Hmmm, it's a good problem. At 90% science we yield 1151 beakers. At that rate it leaves us 145 beakers and 34 gold short of the target. Most of the gold difference can be had for a map trade with Brennus. So, 2 turns to make up 145 beakers, plus whatever I lose due to drafting. So guys, it will cost something like 30 workers (out of 91) to maintain 4 turn research. That's a lot of workers for just one turn, but
-We are trying to win this
-the forsestry really is winding down
-Mass Production only costs 3733. We can accomplish that at 60% research as we are now, profiting 75gpt with beakers to spare. A bit more if I go crazy with worker stuffing. We could buy back workers at that point if we like.

but then, with worker stuffing, some are needed simply for food support. The point is... to maintain 4-turn research will frankly cost us a third to one half of our workers. Then the techs get cheaper for 8 turns, then we're going to be 800+bpt short of 4-turn research in the Modern Age. We'll need more beakers anyway. Is it ok with the team if I sacrifice our workers in this way?
Or... I could just burn a turn of research, earn a profit of 75g right now, and invest it in more workers for the future. Or cash. Hmmm, it's a good problem.
EDIT: I must add, the burn-a-turn option grants us ~300+ worker moves before the MA. It might be enough to earn back the turn we're burning.

And, I give up. What's a TBD city?

 

[denyd]

Don't forget that if timed properly we'll get the Internet research boost the turn after we reach the Modern Era. That's +50% science for every homeland city.

TBD = To be determined

We can probably use Trondheim for this, though Stockholm will also be a good choice.

Preliminary thoughts: sheesh, you've really got it Exactly at 4 turn research, don't you?

I went city be city adding Scientists until the research time dropped from 5 to 4 then converted the rest of the availble citizens to taxmen.

A couple of thoughts:

1. Warning: Converting Infantry to shields is going to make us an even more inviting target for Brennus. Remember we are currently weak in military against him and we have only 40+ military units.

2. I was thinking that we might want to keep Brennus at full strength for a while longer. He can probably contribute 2-3 Modern Era techs with luck. If we trade him Computers & Fission, he'll probably go for Rocketry, Space Flight & Ecology while we go for Nuclear Power, The Laser & Robotics.

3. Once again we will need to beef up our military soon. Brennus is probably going to go for Amphibious Warfare sometime and over half of our coastal cities are undefended.

4. If we decide to do #2, then we could us the Celts as the elevator AI, while using the Ottoman as the funding AI to funnel cash to the Indians. That way once all of the needed techs are researched we'll be able to take on the Celts without having to worry about how to get funds to the Indians.

 

[jeffelammar]

1. I am more than willing to give up workers right now for a tech race. We can rebuild our worker force afterwards if necessary. (Note that on my turn set I joined a bunch of workers to make sure we got AT in 5)

2. I don't want Brennus getting that much tech unless we are ready to squash him. I'm fine with him having some MA techs, but I don't want any AI to be in position to launch before Ghandi.

 

[Jove]

Ok, if everyone else doesn't mind I'll go ahead with a big worker uptake. I'll slide science down far enough that I can run it at 100% for the following 2 turns with the boosted population.

1. Warning: Converting Infantry to shields is going to make us an even more inviting target for Brennus. Remember we are currently weak in military against him and we have only 40+ military units.

Is it the disbanding itself or the drop in strength? My plan is to do a small bit of selected drafting and disbanding, no more than 10 or so, to get the aquaducts that will allow the pop capacity to get our next tech in 4. We won't have any actual drop in military power.

Runaway Celts: The Ironworks will come online in 4-5 turns, then we could get 2-turn artillery. Looks attractive to me. With a token navy and nice stack of arty, inf and cavs, we can pick Brennus apart pretty much at leisure.

OK, more comments are welcome, still more to think about. I should get started (way late) tonight.

 

[denyd]

My fear was that you'd be disbanding some of the few infantrymen we have now. Pretty soon we're going to need a military worthy of the #1 World Power. Right now a competent (which the AI is not) opponent could land 30 Cavalry on on shores of our home island and we'd be toast.

I've got no problem with joining workers but would prefer to save slaves for future work (pollution cleanup, Celtic land improvements, etc).

 

[Jove]

This is one hell of an MM dilemma. The question is, where do we put ToE? Stavanger can do it quite conveniently in 9, or easily less or more, but it's the only big pre-build we've got that has a river and can do Hoover's. But until Electronics, we're locked in as we are- CC has to stay on the Palace, Stavanger has to stay on ToE. But what about the Internet? Dang it, I guess it could go in Trondheim. But what aobut Wall Street? Will we even want it? Personally, 50gpt isn't that big under the circumstances, I'd rather have a stack of arty...
Hmmm, an MM monster. I like to do selective starving. Nobody actually starves to death, they just get hungry.

It's very wordy. Look, this is my method. You should see the typing that I don't post!

 

[Paul#42]

I took quite a break to finish Gotm50 - a 20k-monster. Now I'm back. Did I miss something?

This is one hell of an MM dilemma. The question is, where do we put ToE? Stavanger can do it quite conveniently in 9, or easily less or more, but it's the only big pre-build we've got that has a river and can do Hoover's. But until Electronics, we're locked in as we are- CC has to stay on the Palace, Stavanger has to stay on ToE. But what about the Internet? Dang it, I guess it could go in Trondheim. But what aobut Wall Street? Will we even want it? Personally, 50gpt isn't that big under the circumstances, I'd rather have a stack of arty...

Wall Street we would only need in Spain because we won't have any money in treasury until research is complete. Even later I think we won't have much money as we will give it to India via Celts ...
Sorry, I missed that prebuild dilemma when I was planning the wonders...
I think least important of the three is the Hooverdam although that production boost would be nice... So let's have a little delay there if necessary...

It's very wordy. Look, this is my method. You should see the typing that I don't post!

It's okay, (I hope) we understand what you want to tell us...

 

[Jove]

Sorry, I missed that prebuild dilemma when I was planning the wonders

Well, I don't know if anyone expected Brennus to finish Universal Suffrage so soon. Maybe we oughta take that to heart- they have some serious production power over there.

Speaking of the Celtic Colossus, with a cruiser or two, we could bomb the tar out of any coastal Celtic cities that seem too gnarly... it really is pretty easy to beat the AI in CivIII.

Anyway, I'm still thinking about the ToE. It'll have to wait until tomorrow until I actually make any moves, and coincidentally, there's a big rock concert tomorrow to which I have tickets... Wednesday, anyone?