SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

[Niklas]

I'm not so sure we did break Carthage's rep, I disconnected their silks but they reinitiated the trade with Spain the turn after. Probably Spain was paying per-turn stuff only, in which case Carthage would still be clean. But your point is a good one, we should make sure that we give the Trader title to someone with an intact rep.

EDIT: 1000th replies in the thread! (No more double posts from me)
EDIT2: Looking at the other teams' territory graphs, I'd say we are probably a few turns ahead of them to the end of the tech ladder. Great work team!

 

[zyxy]

zyxy, have your way with Spain, I don't want to have to fight any after the hand-off ya hear!

I already played 8, but sure, I can play a few more. So the plan would be:

- research at 4 turn rate.
- kick Spain off Tadpole and Ostrich. We may need to raze towns to avoid domination, but otherwise keep them.
- how about India? Start giving away towns now? And if so, which ones? Should the ones that lack city improvements get them rushed?

IMO, if we let the elevator ride to the top then we have lots of spare cash, so rushing stuff would be a good idea. Possible candidate towns to give away [ (1) means it needs first level city improvements like markets and aqueducts, (2) means it needs medium level improvements like banks and factories, (3) means it needs high level improvements like stocks and docks]: Ville (2), Kastle (2), Oe-Hah (1), Mo (1), Kristiansund (1), Oy (3), Nan (2), Heim (3), Adelphia, Albu, Capulco (3), Food, Ol' Smurkz, Olive, Kalmurkz (2), Cape (2). The best cities to give away first IMO are the first ones, roughly up to Heim I guess, but many of them need improvements. The loss of these cities would lower our total gold output by about 350 (at 50% science), which is about 10-12% of our total income, which I suppose we can afford, even out of GA. By far the biggest contribution to the loss comes from Oy, Nan, and Heim.
Obviously, if we want to hand over cities, then we need to decide what improvements to rush (I guess at least up to level 2), and we have to figure out correct city sizes and which tiles to irrigate and mine.

I don't have time to play today, and very little to play tomorrow, so it would probably be thursday before I get to it. Feel free to take over if that takes too long. In any case, the India Question may need some discussion.

EDIT: I cannot get the FA advisor to say anything at all on trade rep...

 

[Niklas]

Ah, I figured you wanted to play on. I can take it from here if you prefer that, but I don't think it matters much either way, we'll have to finish the Indian discussion before either of us starts anyway.

Regarding trade reps, it seems the advisor will only say something if the other part has blown their rep. He will gladly tell me that Isabella is a liar and a cheat, but won't say anything bad about any of the others, so I guess all their reps are intact.

I'm all for the rushing strategy. If we go to the top we have no real reason to keep our large treasury, other than possibly giving it to India for upkeep and rushing of improvements, but they might as well rush loads of units. I would think that us rushing the improvements first is safer, even considering that ~half of them will be lost during capture.

I would let India have Ville, Kastle and the three atoll towns in the first batch. I would probablyhold Capulco, Albu and Heim (and anything behind) until we're ready to lose Grad, but we could release Nan and Oy as well. This is just based on gut feeling though, I'm open to suggestions.

 

[ControlFreak]

I like the five cities that Niklas proposed as the first wave of city handoffs. Giving them Ville and Kastle will get them another luxury. Giving them the Atoll cities will allow them to start trading with the rest of the world. (Ville might do that too providing our culture doesn't get in the way of the road to ville.)

My only concern is that we could DRASTICALLY improve their ability to research. The towns we're giving make a lot of money with the coastal harbors and the luxuries. And most are at second ring corruption or better. They've been in the IA for at least ten turns. Is it possible that our gifts speed their research enough to possibly finish Mono and Education in under 20 turns? I'm pretty sure they will head to Feudalism first and the techs are still quite expensive for a 7 city civ, but let's just watch their tech progression closely so we don't lose the GL benefit for them.

With that said, I think if we're going to give away 5 cities to get them to a total of 7, lets add one or two more so they can build the FP also. Deer is a first ring city for them and relatively low production for us so that's my next one on the list. After that is probably Nan because it's also relatively corrupt. But it's not the best city for them to have either. Other contenters would be Heim (Bachs) or Capulco (giving them harbor access to Cape which would give them another luxury). The disadvantage to Heim and Capulco is the loss of science to us which could hurt our 4 turn efforts a little.

Cash rushing the Aquaducts/Markets/Factory/Courthouses in the Atoll region makes sense. We can decide if its worth it for us to build Banks or anything else, but my feeling is it's not. Hopefully the factory/courthouse stays intact and India can start building their own improvements at less corruption than we would. In all other areas, we should probably build everything non-culture related before handing it over.

 

[Niklas]

The towns we are discussing lack the following non-cultural improvements (disregarding SAM, coastal fort, barracks/civil defense, power plant, airport, SE), listed in order of importance (IMO):

• Ville: bank, docks
• Kastle: harbor, bank, docks
• Oe-hah: aque, market, factory, court, bank, docks
• Mo: aque, market, factory, court, bank, docks
• Kristiansund: market, factory, bank, docks
• Oy Deer: None
• Nan: Bank

My feeling is that any town we hand off should contain at least aqueduct (and be size 7+), factory and market. It would take India 3 turns to reach Ville, another two to Kastle, minimum 6 to Oe-hah and more to the others. The crucial town in the reckoning is thus Oe-hah, but that shouldn't be a problem either.

We could short-rush a colloseum in Ville next turn to get the bank in 2, then release it to India on the turn thereafter. Kastle will finish harbor this turn, we can build three turns on bank and then rush it and release it to India.

Oe-hah should probably rush an aqueduct, then a market, then a court and finally a factory. It would be nice to have something to disband for at least two of those to avoid rushing with an empty bin (yeah I know, it will only cost us 40 gp to rush a worker, but still).

I'm not afraid of India's research capacity (famous last words). They won't get another town within three turns and there's no way they will beeline for Education. Feudalism is way more worth in the eyes of the AI than either of Mono, Theo or Edu, so they will go for Feudalism before at least one of them. I think we can start the gifting right away.

 

[ControlFreak]

The towns we are discussing lack the following non-cultural improvements (disregarding SAM, coastal fort, barracks/civil defense, power plant, airport, SE), listed in order of importance (IMO):

• Ville: bank, docks
• Kastle: harbor, bank, docks
• Oe-hah: aque, market, factory, court, bank, docks
• Mo: aque, market, factory, court, bank, docks
• Kristiansund: market, factory, bank, docks
• Oy Deer: None
• Nan: Bank

My feeling is that any town we hand off should contain at least aqueduct (and be size 7+), factory and market. It would take India 3 turns to reach Ville, another two to Kastle, minimum 6 to Oe-hah and more to the others. The crucial town in the reckoning is thus Oe-hah, but that shouldn't be a problem either.

We could short-rush a colloseum in Ville next turn to get the bank in 2, then release it to India on the turn thereafter. Kastle will finish harbor this turn, we can build three turns on bank and then rush it and release it to India.

Oe-hah should probably rush an aqueduct, then a market, then a court and finally a factory. It would be nice to have something to disband for at least two of those to avoid rushing with an empty bin (yeah I know, it will only cost us 40 gp to rush a worker, but still).

I'm not afraid of India's research capacity (famous last words). They won't get another town within three turns and there's no way they will beeline for Education. Feudalism is way more worth in the eyes of the AI than either of Mono, Theo or Edu, so they will go for Feudalism before at least one of them. I think we can start the gifting right away.

Nice post on the remaining requirements for the towns in question.

My additions:

• Mo probably doesn't need a court since it will be R1 to India.
• I'm not so sure the dock isn't more important than the bank in Ville and Kastle (but I'm just going off memory).
• Nan's bank could be a priority since we're going to keep the town for a while and it might pay for itself, at least partially.

I like the approach, going for Ville and Kastle first.

We're going to lead the indian archers counterclockwise through the Atoll cities, ending up near deer. Very defensible.

I am also thinking India's research power will not get Education within twenty turns. If they go for Feudalism first, then Mono, they will HAVE to go for Chivalry next because it enables their UU. There's no way that they will be able to research 4 techs in 20 turns. (Again famous last words.)

HOWEVER: How are we going to gift these towns? If we do it by proxy, we run the risk of India beating on someone so badly that they can extort one or more of the IA techs. That could conceivably get them to Education within 20 turns. The alternative is that we take the War Weariness hit ourselves and India deals with Viking citizen unhappiness. That seems worse. So how do we proxy without making the proxy look so weak that they sell IA techs to India?

 

[Niklas]

HOWEVER: How are we going to gift these towns? If we do it by proxy, we run the risk of India beating on someone so badly that they can extort one or more of the IA techs. That could conceivably get them to Education within 20 turns. The alternative is that we take the War Weariness hit ourselves and India deals with Viking citizen unhappiness. That seems worse. So how do we proxy without making the proxy look so weak that they sell IA techs to India?

Hmm, that's a good point (assuming you mean MA techs ). We know from test games that it is possible for India to extort early MA techs this way so it's a very valid concern. But perhaps we should simply take the chance? It is a very slim chance after all, despite everything. After all, the worst thing that could happen is that we must release the GLib a bit earlier than expected, and we do have a backup plan for that.

Your other points are valid as well. Docks before banks make sense, and Nan can build a bank in 5 after the research lab so no problem there.

 

[ControlFreak]

Hmm, that's a good point (assuming you mean MA techs ).

Actually I guess I meant MidA. It's nice being two ages in front of your opponent.

OK, I'm willing to take the chance about proxying the cities to India. Double check the Military Advisor to see if there is anyone that is average with us rather than weak. They may stand a better chance at the peace table.

One more problem with the current state of the game, the American units will need to be escorted out of the way. Otherwise we'll endup with units in the way of the advancing Indian archer horde ( ). We also don't want America to get frisky and take one of India's hard earned cities. You could cancel the ROP and ask them to leave, then redeal the ROP to keep our units on their island.

 

[zyxy]

One more problem with the current state of the game, the American units will need to be escorted out of the way. Otherwise we'll endup with units in the way of the advancing Indian archer horde ( ). We also don't want America to get frisky and take one of India's hard earned cities. You could cancel the ROP and ask them to leave, then redeal the ROP to keep our units on their island.

Sounds good.

India still doesn't have any MA techs, and it's three levels to Edu. So them getting Edu within 20 turns is rather unlikely. The alliance is safe for the first 5 turns or so at least (they will not talk), the biggest risk may be that India buys some techs, perhaps using a lux (ivory). If we reduce Spain quickly, then that wil be somewhat unlikely as well, as luxes will not be worth much to anyone.

It seems we've nailed down what to do. I'll play a few more turns tomorrow (I love to run around with those tanks a bit ) so that we get a clearer picture of what goes on, and then hand it off to the next player.

Plan:
- research Ecology -> Synth Fibers
- remove Spain from Tadpole/Ostrich. Stay away from domination, razing may be necessary. Use coastal blocks on Ostrich to prevent AI's from settling there.
- move most infantry from Tadpole back to Main Continent.
- kick Americans out by cancelling/renewing RoP. If they declare, that's bad for them, and I'll reduce them to OCC if possible. Btw, I cannot kick them out the turn the RoP ends I think, it takes one more.
- cashrushing as indicated by Niklas (except perhaps for the court). Cost would be something like 1300 shields I guess, which means 5-6K gold.
- lead Indians to 'ville, 'kastle, 'Oe-Hah, Mo, Kristian (not that I will play that far). There are no resources that need to be pillaged in this area. Use Mongols or Carthage as proxy. Perhaps Mongols is best, as Carthage has Silks and if they ever build a harbor, they can trade them to India. Mongols are fairly useless for any purpose it seems.

 

[ControlFreak]

it's three levels to Edu. So them getting Edu within 20 turns is rather unlikely.

Oh yeah, forgot about Theology. No problem giving up cities then.

Btw, I cannot kick them out the turn the RoP ends I think, it takes one more.

Yes, I think your right about that. That mean's we'll have our medi booted from America as well. No problem I think.

Happy hunting, and avoid the killer spear!

 

[WarDance]

I'm just going along with you all's plans... the complexities are giving me a headache. I agree that it's unlikely that India will get to Education before they get the Great Library. Possible I think, but unlikely.

 

[WarDance]

OK, I'm willing to take the chance about proxying the cities to India. Double check the Military Advisor to see if there is anyone that is average with us rather than weak. They may stand a better chance at the peace table.

72 infantry, 38 tanks, and 40 artillery, nearly a full age ahead in technology and you're looking for someone who isn't "weak" to us?!

Just messing with you, ControlFreak. We are indeed strong to everyone and our military advisor tells us that 38 tanks aren't enough. "We should build tank".

 

[ControlFreak]

72 infantry, 38 tanks, and 40 artillery, nearly a full age ahead in technology and you're looking for someone who isn't "weak" to us?!

I remember when we were taking over Smurkz with a clearly dominant sword/medi army and India was strong compared to us. It would not surprize me if one of the OCCs had just been building tons of cheap units and had bigger number in terms of units. But I guess with our large number of cities now, the calculation would be tilted in our favor.

Maybe we can go by the "Power" chart to determine who is least likely to settle for peace.

 

[zyxy]

Turnlog, part 3

Turn 8, 1325AD (cont'd): Where are the reigns? They're gone! Let the tanks roll! Mohacs, Augustodorum, Jaen taken. Cancel RoP with America. I make an exit point for their troops, but I cannot get them out now, so I'll have to keep India in for a turn. Shortrush some stuff. Sell Rocketry to Ottomans for 1693 gold + WM + 3 gpt. A ridiculous price, but I want my money back! Osman discovers he has no Aluminum. Ha!

IT: Americans kick our MDI and land 2 more troops at 'ville . Jaen riots and our Oil source at Albu moves to the other side of town.

Turn 9, 1330AD: Tell Americans to get out and they say "their peacekeeping forces will withdraw at once." We don't need no stinkin' peace! We take Camulodunum and Pamplona, actually losing a tank this time. Spain is now off Tadpole (in 2 turns!). Defeat an invading longbow at Detroit. Make 2 holes for India, hopefully their stack will split. We're 24 tiles from Domination.

IT: Apparently we have to re-sign a peace treaty with Celts, and I do so (straight peace). Indians march out towards 'ville. Our first Aircraft Carrier is commissioned.

Turn 10, 1335AD:

We raze Madrid and Seville, at the loss of 2 tanks.

IT: Ottomans and India embargo us. Scary.

Turn 11, 1340AD: Toledo and Murcia razed. India is next to 'ville, so the big moment has come. Who better to lead us in these trying times than our captain, so I'll hand it off here (also in case I'm overlooking something ).

notes:

• To gift cities to India:
  • ally with a proxy. Mongols will do it for 120 gold.
  • Gift 'ville to proxy this turn. Make sure Ecology is still in 1 turn!
  • Keep towns you want India to go for accessible and undefended (like 'ville, 'kastle and Oe-Hah now). In all other places, seal the border as we have done before. As soon as Indian troops appear next to a town, gift it to the proxy.
• There's a stack that can attack Barcelona next turn. I would keep it, it has 2 luxes. There's another stack that can raze Salamanca. Six tanks should be enough, a tank will usually win against rifle. Spanish counters are longbows/rifles, no cavs. I think we should use slave workers to block the coastline as soon as it's safe (I assume that's allowed?), otherwise some AI's will settle there.
• I have been moving the 'ville-LNS ship chain to Victoria-Coal Mntn. They are still on their way. 'ville-LNS 3 should be a ferry where it is now I think. The ferry that used to be there is now further up north. The other ship chain is somewhat in dissarray, sorry. We have a pirate ship to take out some galleys, and a carrier just because I felt like it.
• GL is still near Washington.
• Several towns on Tadpole have serious flip risk. It should get better soon, when Ostrich is cleared. Rushing workers might be good as well.
• We are near the Dom limit, be careful.
• There's a stack of arty in Zentral and near Richborough.

The save.

 

[CommandoBob]

Tell Americans to get out and they say "their peacekeeping forces will withdraw at once." We don't need no stinkin' peace!

Brings this quote to mind from Blazing Saddles:
Mexican Bandit: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges.

 

[CommandoBob]

Niklas had been taking a walk through the capital, Smurkzheim, and was returning to the palace. He came into the back of the palace and noticed that no one was around. Curious, he wandered through the halls and buildings but saw no one. As he made his way towards the front he heard strange noises. He followed the noises, not war noises, thinking that wherever the noise was the people would be also. And he was right.

Ragnar Lodbrok had returned.

He had gathered everyone into the courtyard and they were doing some form of exercise. Ragnar was out in front of the palace on the raised walkway that formed the courtyard, instructing the crowd. They were to stomp with their left foot, then stomp with their right foot and lastly clapp their hands one time. This odd activity repeated itself, apparently without end. Ragnar seemed upset that this crowd, which consisted of his advisors and city governors and their helpers, could not handle this simple task. He did see that ControlFreak could do this rather well and so called him to stand beside him and lead the crowd in their exercise. With ControlFreak leading them, the crowd was soon stomping and clapping together in unison.

Satisfied with their effort, Ragnar stopped the exercise. He stepped into the palace and pulled out a short, odd looking spear. Well, not a spear, Niklas realized; it was a microphone on a stand. He set the microphone down and spoke into it. “Test, test.” His words boomed out, greatly amplified.

Ragnar motioned to ControlFreak to restart the exercise. Which he did. Stomp, stomp, clap. Stomp, stomp, clap. Stomp, stomp, clap. Stomp, stomp, clap.

And then Ragnar stepped up to the microphone and began to sing about someone named Buddy, who was kicking a can.

Niklas listened and thought, I can do better than that. So he slipped up to the microphone behind Ragnar and waited. Ragnar finished and then jumped when he saw Niklas behind him. ControlFreak faltered a little too, but Niklas waved him to continue.

Niklas stepped up to the microphone and began to sing, using the same notes that Ragnar had.

Gandhi you’re a freak, almost geek
Playin’ with a spear wanna be a big shot some day
You got milk on yo’ face
You big disgrace
Throwing your Legos all over the place!

And the crowd roared back:
We will we will rock you. (stomp, stomp, clap)
We will we will rock you. (stomp, stomp, clap)

Niklas continued:

Gandhi you’re a pacifist masochist
Shoutin’ in the street gonna take on the Smurkz some day
You got fuzz on yo’ face
You big disgrace
Wavin’ your flowers all over the place!

Here Niklas waved his hands for the crowd to be quiet and sang.

Alpha Alpha Centauri! (stomp, stomp, clap)
And the crowd replied:
Alpha Alpha Centauri! (stomp, stomp, clap)

Niklas:

Gandhi you’re a dreamin’ Indian
Thinking if you can ever conquer the planet one day.
You got mud on your face
You big disgrace
Somebody’s gonna put you into outer space.

Everybody:
Alpha Alpha Centauri! (stomp, stomp, clap):
Alpha Alpha Centauri! (stomp, stomp, clap)

Alpha Alpha Centauri! (stomp, stomp, clap):
Alpha Alpha Centauri! (stomp, stomp, clap)

And since the deed had yet to be done, Niklas refrained from his version of ‘We are the Champions’. But he still had to face Ragnar.

 

[Niklas]

@CB: Those lyrics are brilliant, imagine that I came up with those.
I wonder though if we will ever get a real spoiler to post in the spoiler thread? I think we could throw in these small anecdotes as comic relief, but we should really say something about our game as well...

@zyxy: Looking good, nice work with Spain so far.

I've "got it" and will look at it later tonight, will play during the weekend. This is an exciting phase of the game , I'll really try not to mess things up. Lots of things to keep in mind all the time.

 

[ControlFreak]

The game looks good. Nice job zyxy.

Boats
The ships are a little disorganized. Are the slaves coming to Smurkz or going to Ostrich/Tad? If their coming to Smurkz, the unmoved boats in Point can help finish the trips with the slave moves intact on Smurkz.

Ostrich
If we are going to ring Ostrich with units to prevent resettling, we can save a bunch of units by blocking the channel with destroyers. We also want the spanish boats out of there immediately. They will start to annoy us with bombarding the coastline. Once we capture Barcelona, the gems are a likely target.

Blocking the channel would prevent any landing parts along the inner coastline which saves us from having to put a unit on every single tile of that coast.

In order for a true ship chain to work to Ostrich, we need a port city where they can load or unload. At the moment, there are no coastal cities on our side of Ostrich. It might be worth building one temporarily to help transportation. We could also rush a harbor there for immediate connection of the gems/furs.

More Boats
If you park transports on one of the ocean tiles within reach of Point, New Harbor City (see Ostrich above) and Buffalo and park transports in each of those cities, we can bring up units back and forth between all the continents. The number of boats determines how many per turn. I would think 4 transfer boats and 2 in each port city would be sufficient.

Mongols
Keep a close eye on the Mongol galley heading towards our NE. They have no reason to be sailing so they are likely trying to backstab us. If we're going to use them a proxy and they backstab us, we lose our ability to gift the cities to India. If there's a privateer nearby, just sink the galley and be done with it. Otherwise, you may need to cancel the ROP and ask them what their intentions are when it's convienient for us.

Americans
After eviction, they ended up with a stack of five units SW of Houston. We should have more than one infantry down there, or keep checking to see if they trespass so that we can ask them to leave before they attach. RNG is not always kind.

 

[zyxy]

Wow, great spoiler CB!

@Niklas: yes, it is getting a bit complex. Turns take a long time, even without micromanagement.

Are the slaves coming to Smurkz or going to Ostrich/Tad?

I had no idea what to do with them really. I would use them to block the coast of Ostrich when it's safe to do so (there already is a stack of slaves on Ostrich somewhere I think).

If we are going to ring Ostrich with units to prevent resettling, we can save a bunch of units by blocking the channel with destroyers. We also want the spanish boats out of there immediately.

Good idea. I think I sank quite a few of the Spanish already.

In order for a true ship chain to work to Ostrich, we need a port city where they can load or unload. At the moment, there are no coastal cities on our side of Ostrich. It might be worth building one temporarily to help transportation. We could also rush a harbor there for immediate connection of the gems/furs.

I would rather use Barcelona as this single city. Or raze Barcelona, found a new town and put colonies on the resources. We are very close to the domination limit, and there is a small culture expansion next turn I believe.

Keep a close eye on the Mongol galley heading towards our NE. They have no reason to be sailing so they are likely trying to backstab us. If we're going to use them a proxy and they backstab us, we lose our ability to gift the cities to India. If there's a privateer nearby, just sink the galley and be done with it. Otherwise, you may need to cancel the ROP and ask them what their intentions are when it's convienient for us.

Both Otto's and Mongols have been sailing galleys along our east coast for a long time, so I am not so worried. If they backstab, we just have to enlist another proxy. Btw, you can only boot them if the galley is loaded I think.
Our only privateer is on the other side of the world, but there may be a privateer under construction nearby.

 

[Niklas]

I would rather use Barcelona as this single city. Or raze Barcelona, found a new town and put colonies on the resources. We are very close to the domination limit, and there is a small culture expansion next turn I believe.

We should also recall that starting this IBT, we will be losing territory to India. It's a fine line to walk, but we could colonize Ostrich at a leisurely pace while Gandhi gets our southern core.

I've had a closer look at the game, and I have a few questions:

• What have been the general level of defense in Spanish towns? Two rifles or more? Any outdated units still in play?
• Like CF asked, what to do with the slaves in the ships? I see no reason to ship them to Smurkz, should I take them to Tadpole instead? That's where I think they could be useful, to quickly mine lots of tiles after we've moved the FP.
• Any Spanish ships I should be aware of?
• AFAICT the next cultural expansion that would bring in more tiles in our area is Entremont in 25 turns. There are no other towns on Tadpole that have any culture, and on Smurkz the only domination-sensitive tiles are in the icy north (with no culture), near Carthage (2 that will come in 62 turns) and near towns that will be Indian before we need to worry. Please tell me if I've missed anything here.

I'll post my turnlog later tonight or tomorrow, and play tomorrow or Sunday.