SGOTM21 Lurker's Thread

10/10 map. Would* play again. :thumbsup:

*
Spoiler :
n't. Not enough time. :cry:

Great scenario, design, and lovingly crafted details. I do think it asked an awful lot of the players, though, so the next one should be a little less intense.

In terms of constructive critique: the map worked well for me because it constantly afforded and rewarded a variety of approaches. This was not, I think, true at the very start, where there were five obvious city sites. I would imagine that every team settled the capital 2S of the Wheat, that every team settled Cows/Gems and Gems/Gems for cities #2 and #3 (the order could be flipped), and that every team had claimed the Fur island as their fourth or fifth city site.

The tasks were well designed too. Perhaps I am biased, but I do think a genuine early game task should have been put in place to offset the cost of purchasing early hints.

Cathy #1 was far slower than its placement suggests. With abundant land Oil, it might baaarrely win out over the second objective. This would have made for an interesting optimization challenge, where a team that had conquered the map could utilize late game GS bulbs to 1-turn Fission while simultaneously hooking up Aluminum. As it was, the disparate location of Uranium and Oil coupled with the need for offshore platforms made it totally unfeasible. I would have also left a few generous hints on the map about the approximate placement of Aluminum. Or you could have purchased these as direction hints... but that would have meant more work for you guys. After seeing the location of Aluminum and Oil (everywhere but our island) there was no way I'd gamble that I could gather 4 groups of 3-5 Workers to mine 4 Aluminum in Spain/Japan/Russia/China/random ice islands in 2/3 turns (the time needed to research Railroad + Combustion).

I hope this was constructive. :) I realize my comments about the hints are too specific to help with future maps. I had great fun, in any case. Thanks for your efforts.

As suggestions for the next map: if you want to increase the difficulty, try using the Toroidal wrap setting and give the AI enough commercial resources to stay afloat. Or create some Deity-lite scenarios: Deity, but remove the AI's free Settler and/or turn off barbs. Barbarian RNG is the number 1 problem with Deity in competitions like this.

I do think Deity restricts the number of potential strategies that can be utilized to win, though. SGOTM is a competition against other teams and players, not the AI.

If you want some suggestions for variation: remove tech trading (this will make things harder and slower). Or give some choices about the start, e.g., to steal a scenario from a multiplayer map:

Spoiler :
Leaders and civs are unrestricted, but there can only be one of each leader and one of each civ in the game.

The map is a 40x40 mirror, but the level is Prince. You have a pre-placed city with 5 culture; a Scout; and a Worker. Note the Railroad at A, the Forest Preserve on the tile west of A, the netted Whales at B, and the Town at D.



In picking your civilization:

Fishing: City has 0 culture.
Mining: Tile A becomes flatland.
Agriculture: Tile B loses Whale Boat.
Hunting: Tile C loses Forest.
The Wheel: Tile D, Town becomes Hamlet.
Mysticism: Tile E becomes Plains.​

Additionally there are some civilizations with effects should you choose them:

If you are India, you start without a Worker.
If you are Inca, you start without a Scout.
If you are Aggressive France, you start without Rice.
If you are Charismatic Russia, you start without Rice or Pigs.​

The capital will also receive a free building, depending upon your leader's traits:

Aggressive: Observatory
Charismatic: Laboratory
Creative: Barracks
Expansive: Harbor
Financial: Customs House
Imperialistic: Lighthouse
Industrious: Stables
Organized: Supermarket
Philosophical: Colosseum
Protective: Levee
Spiritual: Islamic Temple​

----

Or you could (e.g.) use the advanced start option and let teams pick their own freebies. I can't remember how points are allocated, since I've never used it seriously.


@WastinTime

Spoiler :
Just like popping a free tech from a hut...
It's a myth that this has any major impact on the game.
Don't forget, you lose 1 hammer in that silver mine.
And more often than not, an early tech boost (from silver or from a free tech) just means you end up researching something you should have gotten for free. Perfect example was this game. We burned up any commerce advantage that silver gave us by researching Sailing instead of getting it free.

So the commerce was a wash, and the hammer loss set us back. It was all evened out by the extra happy....which was nice :)
With a little luck meeting the AI, maybe we would not have squandered our extra commerce on Sailing. Somehow, thankfully, the luck always evens out, and the game comes down to skill -- Kinda like poker.

On paper, I'm sure it seems like the silver must have had an effect, but in reality, it probably affected the game by 0 turns.

0 turns, yeah right. ;) 1–3 turns would be fair, depending on how the Silver was leveraged. I agree that it is not decisive.

The game is a beaker race, and the Silver provides an additional 4CPT in the capital from whenever it is popped. So, to perform a dingding type analysis, you could say that the Silver provided an additional 4C*145 turns, and this 580C, boosted by Bureau plus a Library/University/Observatory/Oxford/whatever, is going to save about a turn across the course of the game. This assumes that the gains afforded by earlier access to certain economic/tile boosting techs exceeds what would be gained by receiving these techs in a trade with the AI.

However, a more accurate analysis would note that this particular start is starved of hammer or happy resources, while there is an over-abundance of sea food. In the early game, the Silver: (1) solves the numerous happy problems that arise from producing ~1 WB per city; (2) eliminates the need to build early Odeons (the capital/Fish Island excepted); (3) halves the opportunity cost of Forges, which are typically too expensive to build before T110 unless they provide a +2/+3 happy boost.

In short, it provides happiness and hammers via the whip and Forges, which was the limiting factor in most games given the absence of a zealot land neighbor willing to spread their religion, or a close AI willing to trade their excess Silver or Gold.

I haven't read the TSR thread beyond the first few pages, but it would be interesting to compare your tech situation at ~T62/3 to our own, which was when we had bulbed Mathematics and Oracled Currency (misplays both). In terms of hammers, I would also be interested to know how many Odeons you had built by ~T95, and, finally, whether you beelined Metal Casting more aggressively than the other teams.
 
Thanks Doshin :)

We seem to think alike, as both scenarios I prepared have some of your suggestions implemented. But I don't know yet if I will provide the next map. We didn't talk about it yet.
 
@TSR Silver: Agree with Doshin. We leveraged the silver but could have much better. We didn't get anything from Mansa after Engineering, iirc. We hardly took advantage of the 2 settler pumps we could have but never built. PD's REX plus our game, including the silver, probably finishes 5-10t sooner.

I'm not able to open saves right now. My biggest curiosity is how many more settlers did PD build that we did?
 
And the answer to Life, The Universe, Everything, and how many settlers PD built is 42.
Slighly more than TSRs 13.
Spoiler :
assuming I checked the right saves


edit, settlers by date would be more meaningful as I assume a lot of those were for domination in the end
 
I just created this for the results announcement:
Code:
[U]Team [/U]                    [U]1st Heart[/U] [U]2nd Heart[/U] [U]3rd Heart[/U] [U]Victory[/U]         [U]Date[/U]  [U]Score[/U] [U]Living Ladies[/U]
Plastic Ducks            167 Isa-b 170 Liz-b 170 Cat-b 171 Domination 1110AD 246390   3
The Shawshank Redemption 158 Isa-b 164 Liz-a 170 Cat-b 171 Domination 1110AD 409058   2 
Xteam                    158 Liz-a 187 Isa-c 191 Cat-b 192 Religious  1320AD 187915   3
Jag älskar er            170 Liz-a 190 Isa-a 203 Cat-b 204 Domination 1440AD 270130   1 
Fifth Element            168 Isa-b 172 Liz-b 209 Cat-b 210 Religious  1500AD 112755   2 
Misfit Gypsy Nuts        195 Liz-a 201 Isa-b 218 Cat-b 219 Domination 1545AD 246390   1 
Phoenix Rising           Withdrew
 
My notes (which are not completely reliable) on a couple of topics mentioned recently:

Metal casting: JAE Oracled it t71. Four teams researched it: TSR t80, PR t82, MGN and FE both t88. PD traded for it t94 and XT on t99.

By t130, PD had settled (not captured) ~17 cities, TSR had settled ~8.
 
:blush:
Sorry - It has now been updated.
That's what I get for posting something in-work without peer review.
Spoiler :
I always have to stop myself from asking for corrections. The request is just extra words and people will point out errors for me anyway. - thanks
Spoiler :
I caught it on my own, but not before you did.
 
:goodjob: good job bringing home the victories on schedule

You all finished in the last week:

PD May8
TSR May6
Xt May8
Jäe May2
FE May6
MGN May6
 
:goodjob: good job bringing home the victories on schedule

You all finished in the last week:

PD May8
TSR May6
Xt May8
Jäe May2
FE May6
MGN May6

I'm happy for the unextendable deaadline... otherwise I'm pretty sure we'd all have voted to extend it. :crazyeye:
 
Thanks for letting us see the saves! Could we have the PR saves available as well?

Some interesting comparison, units/buildings built:

PD:
Spoiler :
vAORFuK.jpg

TSR:
Spoiler :
E16lJo9.jpg

Xteam:
Spoiler :
euexaq2.jpg

JÄE:
Spoiler :
BwWWRwg.jpg

FE:
Spoiler :
LVJzNSk.jpg

MGN:
Spoiler :
ykjVjiB.jpg

Interestingly, the finish order is directly correlated to the amount of libraries built. Okay, PD had a bit more than TSR, but let's just say the silver made up for slightly fewer libraries and the argument still stands. ;) Both PD and TSR were way ahead of the other teams in library production.

Otherwise PD and TSR seems to have played very different tactics. TSR only 9 cities built, PD 32 (though many of those would be for settling to reach domination limit in the end). PD went with massive amounts of siege, TSR barely used siege at all, instead most of the warfare seems to be mounted. PD built 46 galleons, TSR only 19. How they could conquer the world and chain tanks with only 19 galleons is beyond my comprehension..

TSR and JÄE were the only teams that didn't build an academy.

In terms of land improvements, it seems that PD and TSR had a heavier emphasis on windmills and watermills than the other teams. The special trophy for most workshops goes to JÄE with a fair margin! :trophy:
 
I was a bit concerned watching one team early popping resource and another oracling CS.

Having such things in offline game - fun, but it should be avoided in high competition games, where even 1 turn sooner victory does matter.

Early silver means what, +40% commerce and 1 happy face? Huge difference, especially early in the game. And can be avoided easily with hidden resources on hills, as Kossin pointed.

Oracling CS - harder to judge. It requires sacrifices in terms of growth. Still its impact on game is too huge to be ignored.

I loved Kcd_Swede's approach with taking Oracle out of game.
All this is IMHO of-cause. :)

Congratulations to all teams! :goodjob:
 
The degree of complication in this scenario minimized the effects of random factors, imo. TSR and PD played such different games that it's hard to know where to begin to compare. TSR didn't even consider the Oracle.

Complexity is why I like abundant resources. More choices means more variation among teams. Taking away any part of CIV (like Oracle) simply lessens variation.

Incidentally, I pmailed the game builders before the game encouraging them to put late-game resources on all hills in the starting area. They can attest to that.
 
Incidentally, I pmailed the game builders before the game encouraging them to put late-game resources on all hills in the starting area. They can attest to that.
True. Resources can pop on any hill so we considered the problem unfixable and iirc the game was already build. We under appreciated the impact of resources on a capital hill.
Spoiler :
besides, TSR needs all the help they can get to be competitive :mischief:
 
Next game put cows on every tile so we do not have to worry about extra resources.

As for oracling CS. I'm not convinced that it was not a mistake. Looking at the comparisons we have so many fewer cities. If we had gotten more cities instead we would probably be ready for war earlier.
 
I have a question that I hope people don't mind me asking here. There are so many great players in this thread and forum.

If you cease fire with an AI, will your war success get deleted, or will it be saved, so that when you redeclare a little later, it will still be there, and build upon whatever new war success you get? Shame if it goes back to 0.
 
I would say Mansa increases the random factor much more than Oracling something nice in any game. I also think that silver poping up is very lucky, but with 3 gems close that's okay. I would be worried about it on very commerce and happy poor maps only as mapmaker, otherwise..happens.

Pangea rather sure war success resets when you cease fire, otherwise it would be too easy playing around with AIs ;)
 
Pangea rather sure war success resets when you cease fire, otherwise it would be too easy playing around with AIs ;)

Bugger :( That disappointing, but thanks a lot for the quick answer :thumbsup:

Maybe it's not decided yet, but when will the next game start? Do all the teams need a vacation first? :D
 
I would say Mansa increases the random factor much more than Oracling something nice in any game.
Interesting. I never thought of AIs that way. PD got Constitution and Corporation from Mansa, TSR got nothing after Engineering, iirc, but I assumed that was because we gave him Education too late. On the other hand, Mansa teched Democracy after Constitution and AI tech choice is massively RNG, so I suppose you're right in that respect.
 
Oracling CS (or even Oracling anything) is huge risk (remember Inca on marble hill in SGOTM 19?).

Especially when you cannot see from Demography if there is Inca in game and when you are sure there is Isabella in game (and these two leaders always rush on Oracle). Even without Inca, there was him in game, the destroyer of all wonderplans, granted with marble and stone (=Louis, if anyone doesnt know).

With poor greek techs, heading for 3 religious techs early is extremely risky


Any comparison of who and when got Oracle?
 
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