SGOTM3 Rome - Maintenance Thread

mad-bax

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SGOTM3 Rome - Maintenance Thread

This thread will be used as the discussion and maintenance thread for this game. Since Alanh has automated much of the process there is not the need for two threads. The thread will be used for discussions about rules, procedures, bugs and anything else that is directly relevent to the game.

No Spoiler information will be tolerated in this thread

Furthermore, this thread will be used by the staff to communicate important information to the teams. Team members should subscribe to this thread.
 
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SGOTM3 Rome - Variant Rules

The variant rules are set out in the first post of your individual game threads. However, there have been a number of questions posed, and clarifications requested.
I shall attempt to deal with them here.

1. Contact
This is a definition rather than a rule. It allows you to compile a list of opponents and the order in which contact was established, and therefore the order in which you should go to war with them.

Contact is established when you enter the diplomacy (trading) screen with an opponent. Diplomacy may be initiated by either the human player or the AI.

If during exploration you see opponents cultural borders or units, you are not obliged to open diplomatic relations immediately. You can wait until you are ready, or they contact you.

If you decide to initiate diplomacy with more than one opponent on the same turn, you may choose the order in which you do this. The order should be recorded in the team thread.

If an opponent that you have not made contact with yet tries to extort gold, maps or techs from you, then contact is only made if you give in to the demand. If you do not give in to the demand, then we can assume that diplomatic relations have not been established.

2. The twenty turn rule.
The twenty turn rule is primarily designed to to keep teams honest. Without this rule it would be possible to reduce a civ to a settler on a boat and not go to war with another opponent for the rest of the game.

Once you are at war with an opponent, you must declare war on the next opponent on your contact list before 20 turns have expired since the start of the war.

If you completely destroy opponent 5 on the list then you must declare war on opponent 6 before the end of that same turn. If you are already at war with opponent 6 you ARE NOT required to declare war on opponent 7 UNTIL you have been at war with opponent 6 for 20 turns, or have completely destroyed opponent 6.

There may be a condition where 20 turns have elapsed since the last declaration of war but you have run out of opponents on your list becuase you have not yet met them. If you find yourself in this situation, then when you make your next contact you must declare war on them at the instant contact is made, as described in paragraph 1.

Example

Opponent..........Contact Turn.........DoW date
Persia----------------35----------------------35
Zulu------------------38----------------------55
Germany-------------38----------------------75 Germany Exterminated on turn 82
America--------------80----------------------82
Japan-----------------104---------------------104
China-----------------115--------------------124
Spain-----------------132--------------------144

As for when the initial contact is made IBT then the later of the two dates applies. I allow this, since you are already disadvantaged from havining to trade IBT.

3. Trading Techs
The intent of the restrictions in trading is that the AI will be paid exactly what they ask, and will pay exactly what they want to pay. In general therefore, if you want to buy something from the AI you should ask what they want for it, and pay that amount or reject the deal. If you want to sell something to the AI, then you should ask what they will give for it, and either accept or reject the offer. Therefore, if the AI has a tech that you want, it is not permitted for you to load your side of the table step by step until the point is reached where the AI offer what you want. Instead, you should just ask what they want for it first.

Attempting to find a form of words that nails this down in a legally binding manner is difficult for me. Therefore, it is up to the teams to decide whether or not their behaviour at the trading table is within the spirit of the rules. If I believe a teams behaviour is directed at finding some way to circumvent the rules, or find some chink in the wording, and that through these actions have gained an advantage over other teams, then I will consider the variant rules broken, and the team will not qualify for the Golden Laurel award.

You may ask an opponent how much he will sell a tech for.
You may ask an opponent how much he will give for a tech or more than one tech.
You may not ask "What will you give me for this tech + gpt (or gold or resources or luxes or maps)".

4. Trading commodities
You may trade commodities. Commodities include Luxuries, Strategic resources, maps and communications. The important difference is that you MAY NOT combine such trades with Tech deals. So you may ask "What will you give me for communications with the Zulu?" You may NOT ask "What will you give me for communications with the Zulu and Feudalism?" The restrictions in Paragraph 3 apply.

5. Trading with gpt
If an opponent asks for a gold per turn payment as part of a trade, you are permitted to accept such a trade even if you know you will be at war with that Civ before the end of the agreement.

6. Embassies and Diplomatic Agreements
You are not permitted to establish an Embassy with an opponent. Therefore it is not usually possible to make MA agreements for instance. The exception is if an opponent establishes an Embassy with you. In this case you will be able to, and are permitted to make diplomatic arrangements with such opponents. Such deals are subject to the restrictions set out in paragraphs 3 and 4.


Tao has offered an alternative explanation of trading rules, which some people may find easier to deal with. His explanation is NOT different to mine in substance, just wording.

Trading
You may trade technologies and you may trade commodities; commodities include luxuries, strategic resources, maps and communications. To prevent haggling, the following restrictions apply:

You may ask for one or more techs.
You may offer one or more techs.

You may ask for one or more commodities.
You may offer one or more commodities.

You must not offer a mix of techs and commodities.

You may pay with a mix of techs and commodities, if the AI asks for it.

 
MB - could you sticky this so it is easy to find?

Thanks.
 
Mad-Bax: entering the diplomacy screen is the definition of contact. Therefore, if the AI civ pops up and demands something from me, this wouldn't count as contact, right?
 
In general, I would agree. However, there is no opportunity for diplomacy (trading), and opening diplomacy (trading) is the current definition for contact. Just wish to clarify, in case it comes up.
 
To be perfectly honest I hadn't thought about it. But I have now and have amended the definition in post 2.
 
Further clarification to the rules with respect to trading communications. Post 2 has been amended.
 
Even more clarification to the trading rules. Post 2 amended.

You may notice a slight change in tone. ;)
 
mad-bax: I like your interpretation of the "AI demands" scenario! I have this image of one envoy running after another envoy; 1st envoy is yelling "Give us 37 gold and Territory map, or else ... hey, slow down!" and the other has his hands over his ears yelling "La La La ... I can't heeeeaaarrr yoooouuuu ..." :lol:

With regards to the trading rules, I have two assumptions that I believe are in the spirit of the Variant, but could be interpreted otherwise:

1.) I assume that I can ask the AI what they want for 1 Tech, or more than 1 Tech, as a bundle (just as I can offer the AI 1 Tech, or more than 1 Tech, as a bundle)

2.) I assume that the restriction on trading Commodities applies only to offering a trade to the AI; If I ask the AI "What do you want for Modern Armor" and they say "Fission, Spices, Iron and 200 gpt", I can take that offer.
 
Yes to both. Do not offer techs and commodities for sale in the same deal though.
 
MB - Your contact rules fly in the face of conventional practice. Usually, if a civ shows up on your F4 screen, you have contact. A team can avoid contact for quite a long time, and IMHO, that is really against the spirit of the variant.
 
Sir Bugsy, grs. I understand your concern. The system I have adopted was first proposed by Cartouche Bee. If I defined contact as an opponent appearing on F4, then the timeframes for meeting each Civ, and the order in which you meet them would be a product of dumb luck only. In this particular game it makes the difference between winning and losing. By giving the player some minimal control over contact it is possible to reduce the element of luck. This is a competition, and therefore pragmatic decisions must be taken from time to time to create some semblance of a level playing field. I invested over 100 hours of playing time in trying to make this game fair and winnable. ATM it looks like I did half a job.

As it stands, first contact will be the same for every team, and it will be made within 3 or 4 turns of each other. There may be the odd exception where the date differs by more, but I can't circumvent the RNG and peoples choices completely.

So in short I guess I'm saying "trust me".
 
Tao has offered an alternative description of the trading rules for the variant. They do not differ in substance to the "official" rules, but some people may find the wording easier to cope with.

This explanation is added to post 2
 
Polite Request

Would all the teams playing the variant please provide a list of contacts made, in which order and on what date. Please also provide a log of the date on which war was declared with each opponent.

You can post these in the team threads. I will enquire as to whether the posts can be extracted into another thread so that you will each have a modifiable single source of information. I don't know yet if this is possible.

It is the teams responsibility to abide by the rules of the variant. It is not my responsibility to remind each team on which turn they need to declare war and with who. I cannot do this. There are not enough hours in the day.

Thanks.
 
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