SGOTM3 Rome - Team Bugsy

[denyd]

Ok I got the save - I'll be starting in about 8 hours so any thoughts for the first 20 turns let me know.

Let me know your thoughts on where the worker should go.
A. West to the BG to mine/road then to the game to chop/mine/road
B. NE to the BG to mine/road then to the wines to road

Remember this is emperor and I think we only have 1 content citizen to start with, so connecting the wines would help the gold. However, I'll probably be running a 40 turn writing gambit as with just a single city, min & max are probably both 40 turns.

Current plan:

1. Settle in place
2. Worker W to BG to mine & road
3. Research Writing at minimum
4. Start build on barracks then archers
5. Once worker done move to game to chop/road/mine (adjust based on shield needs)
6. Have the first archer spiral away from Rome
7. Avoid making contacts
8. Trade for as much as possible (no gpt deals) then declare war

A question about this variant:

Case:

We meet Persia in turn 15, trade Alphabet & Warrior Code +$ to Persia for Masonry & Bronze Working - then declare war on Persia (all ok so far)

Our Archers head towards Persia and meet a Greek Warrior & Babylonian Warrior on turn 18. Both contact us and we trade some more.

Questions:
1. If we kill Persia on turn 27, when/who is the next war?
2. Can we keep trading with Greece & Babylon until the Persian war is over?
3. At turn 38, if Persia is still around do we have to declare on someone else?
4. If yes to #3 then who or both?

Just a thought, but it wouldn't surprise me to find iron on one of those hills maybe that's why the 2nd wine is gone). They want to make this tough not impossible.

One more topic for discussion: Do we want to delay our Golden Age until we are out of Despotism or once we've got Legionaires, it's full steam ahead?

 

[grahamiam]

A question about this variant:

Case:

We meet Persia in turn 15, trade Alphabet & Warrior Code +$ to Persia for Masonry & Bronze Working - then declare war on Persia (all ok so far)

Our Archers head towards Persia and meet a Greek Warrior & Babylonian Warrior on turn 18. Both contact us and we trade some more.

Questions:
1. If we kill Persia on turn 27, when/who is the next war?
2. Can we keep trading with Greece & Babylon until the Persian war is over?
3. At turn 38, if Persia is still around do we have to declare on someone else?
4. If yes to #3 then who or both?

...

One more topic for discussion: Do we want to delay our Golden Age until we are out of Despotism or once we've got Legionaires, it's full steam ahead?

maybe we need MB to clarify but I think we would get the choice of who gets it 1st if we meet 2 civ's at the same time. it'll really suck if we meet someone while building that barracks since we won't have an MP.

re GA -> imho, delay till we get monarchy if possible.

the order of how you do things is up to you as i'm sure your judgement will be sound. looks like you can get a barracks by turn 9 assuming you mine then road, 1st archer in 5T after that and then 1 every 4 or less after that. imho, save the chop for the granery or to stress out the 1st settler and irrigate that game after chopping so we can be +4fpt.

good luck

 

[alerum68]

I say send the worker west. The luxuries will help but it'll cost a ton of worker turns to get there. I say get the BG, then cut the forrest to speed along our barracks or an archer. Then irigate the game.

Sounds like a good plan, and I'd declare with the civ that has a late age UU so we can destroy them before they're an issue and can start a golden age.

I don't think we'll have much choice in Golden Age... we'll probably have to self-research so will take alot longer to get Monarch then our first Legion battle.

We're not in AW... we can trade with any civ that we aren't at war with.... just have to take every deal at face value. We met 3 civs at once, declare on 1 and trade with the other 2. We could even sign a MA as long as it'll end before we need to declare war.

 

[grahamiam]

I say send the worker west. The luxuries will help but it'll cost a ton of worker turns to get there. I say get the BG, then cut the forrest to speed along our barracks or an archer. Then irigate the game.

i disagree with using the forest chop for an archer. we can do 1 archer every 4T @ size 2 (10 turns) by working the mined BG and the forest game (+2fpt, +5spt, mined BG =2f, 2s; forrest game=2f,2s, and city center=2f,1s). if we mine/road another BG after the 1st, we could do 7spt@ size 3 (archer every 3T)!

also, we will finish the barracks by turn 9 so, imho, we should use it to hurry the granery (60s, @size 2=10T with a forest chop or 12 without, @size3=8Twith chop or 9T without) or the 1st settler.

i agree that the wines can come later, when we get bigger. till then, we'll MM the lux slider.

 

[RowAndLive]

I'd road toward the wine first, as it doesn't need to be worked to make happy citizens. Working the game will increase the growth without the road, and we'll need the happiness before we need the extra 1g. It'll help as we go for city 2 immediately, without having to go back and road to it when we want him doing something else.

Agree with saving the chop - don't waste it on an archer who is only going out a few tiles, and then becoming an MP for city #2/3/4.

As far as your scenario: Technically, per M-Bs notes, whichever you met first (even if on the same turn). If both appear at the same time, then I'd say either your choice, or in the order they appear on the list to initiate contact (but I'm not sure if that just uses the order that they were selected in the set-up).
#3 - yes, we'd have to declare on turn 38 with the first. The way I interpret it, the next would be required at 58, but MB will let us know, I'm sure.

GA - I'd try to delay to get out of despotism. Legions will come first.

@Grahamiam - AFAIK, your +4fpt will still be +3fpt in despotism.

 

[grahamiam]

@Grahamiam - AFAIK, your +4fpt will still be +3fpt in despotism.

an irrigated game on a grass does +4fpt in despotism or +5fpt out of it.

 

[RowAndLive]

@G - Thanks for the clarification!

@Denyd - Quoth Mad-Bax: "It would be the order in which you open diplomatic relations - who you open the trade screens with first."

Of course, if they initiate with us, then we lose the choice. I wonder if we can count the barbs as our first opponent...

ALso, don't forget that you may delay by not opening negotiations (and then getting out of LOS). I'm almost positive that I saw M-B post that in the general discussion!

 

[RowAndLive]

OFF TOPIC

@G - Hoy'd you get the little logos in your sig?

 

[mad-bax]

As you wander around the map you may come across other wandering units and territorial borders. At such times it will be possible to open diplomatic dialogue with those civs in an order of your own choosing. This order should be kept written down, preferebly in the thread somewhere for everybody to reference. This is the order in which war must be declared. From the first declaration of war, you will be declaring war every 20 turns (or sooner if you wipe out the previous civ - or you just want to) until you run out of civs to be at war with.

 

[denyd]

MB: Is it correct that if we are at war with Persia and have just met Greece, we can sign an alliance with Greece for the 20 turns and then declare on Greece when the 20 turns is up?

 

[mad-bax]

You cannot establish an embassy. If they establish an embassy with you then your luck is in.

 

[grahamiam]

@G - Hoy'd you get the little logos in your sig?

they are the following smilies (quote to see)

 

[denyd]

FIRST THE SAVE

[I hope this isn't jumping the gun, I couldn't find the submission page]

Turn 1 – 4000 BC – For those interested we’ve got lots of company: 11 opponents (Greece, France, England, Babylon, Russia, Germany, Aztec, Iroquois, India, Japan & America) – Eve (Worker) W – Settler founds Rome starts Armamentarium (barracks) – start research on Writing at 20% (minimum) due in 40 (due the same at maximum)

Turn 2 – 3950 BC – Eve starts mine

Turn 3 – 3900 BC – nada

Turn 4 – 3850 BC – nothing

Turn 5 – 3800 BC – still nothing

Turn 6 – 3750 BC – even more nothing

Turn 7 – 3700 BC – Eve completes mine

Turn 8 – 3650 BC – Eve starts road

Turn 9 – 3600 BC – Rome builds barracks starts archer

Turn 10 – 3550 BC – Rome border expands spotting wheat to the east – Rome grows to size 2 – Eve completes road

Turn 11 – 3500 BC – Eve moves to NE BG

Turn 12 – 3450 BC – Eve starts mine

Turn 13 – 3400 BC – nothing

Turn 14 – 3350 BC – Rome builds Archer starts another

Turn 15 – 3300 BC – Orion (Archer) MP in Rome – Slider to 9-1-0

Turn 16 – 3250 BC – nothing

Turn 17 – 3200 BC – Eve completes mine

Turn 18 – 3150 BC – Eve starts road – Rome builds Archer starts another

Turn 19 – 3100 BC – Artemis (Archer) MP in Rome

Turn 20 – 3050 BC – Eve completes road

Turn 21 – 3000 BC – Eve moves to BG SW of Rome

Score 87 points

I managed to make it to 3000 BC without meeting anyone and got a pair of veteran archers built. There is a lot of excellent land around, but I wasn't ready to go exploring just yet. I'm hoping we can get at least 1 more arrcher out before we find our first neighbor (probably either Aztec or Greece, with the two earliest UU is this game, knowing that MB wants this to be tough)

 

[alerum68]

nice turns Denyd. Looks like we're in the far south, and I think our neighbors our to the north and west of us. We should probably stick to settling towards the south, with only the wheat being settled... unless we see Iron.

Edit: Posted the save for you denyd. The link for it for future refrence is on the first post of the thread.

 

[Bede]

Got it.

Will await commentary, then post plans tonight, play tomorrow.

 

[grahamiam]

Got it.

Will await commentary, then post plans tonight, play tomorrow.

bede, i think bugs swapped us since i will be out of commision for a week begining Friday.

 

[RowAndLive]

First thoughts on city 2:
- Given the river delta, we have a coast to the S.
- Wheat to E, but surrounded by plains.
- BG to N with G and H available.
- H & G to W, but no water or BG seen. Needs scout to look from hill.
Given what we see above, I'd think that moving our first settler N to snag the BG on the river would be a better bet than pursuing the wheat first, especially given the expected S coast. (it may just be a lake too.) It wil expand toward our foes, which is best in any case, leaving the wheat to be grabbed later (near future). This will at least help keep a higher pop & growth, while still keeping shield potential up (BG & H).

Since we're @3, we should be building a settler next (before growth to 4 in 10), or at least soon.

 

[Bede]

@g,
right you are. Didn't read far enough down the first page. Have fun.

 

[RowAndLive]

I had another thought that arose out of all of that jungle that was in the last game. We had decent-sized stacks of workers (6-8 IIRC) spending 4-6 turns chopping, and then 2 turns roading. The less workers, the longer it took.

What about using a "population bomb" to clear a jungle area? That is, come in with a settler (instead of 2 workers), plant the city, set it to build a worker, and then abandon the city when the worker is built. You are left with rubble on either grass or plains, and with a road already built (in PTW), and upon which your new worker can immediately mine or irrigate. End loss is only 1 worker for the gain of many turns.

You wouldn't want to do it a lot, but it could be used to clear a pretty big area of jungle in a mid game, allowing the central city that you did want to become more productive quicker. For example, the start area in the new GOTM has much jungle. You couldn't use this at first, but after you have 8-9 cities, you could plant one in the now-cleared jungle pretty quick.

 

[alerum68]

That would save turns for sure, but we'll still lose however many turns it took to build the settler, as well as 1 population, and 20 shields. That would be a good stratagy for later in the game, but even up the the late middle ages I see it costing more then it gives... if this was C3C and ruins not having roads I would think that it would be a total loss.

As for city planning, I think you have the right idea about getting the BG for shields in our next city, but I'm very nervous about having AI to the north of us... I feel pretty safe to the south and east, which would mean settling the wheat... but you're right now the BG with it's shields would be a better option. Just remember we have to settle within 3 squares of the capitol or we're screwed on defense.