SGOTM3 Rome - Team Bugsy

[Sir Bugsy]

I agree changing strategy is something we do all the time. It is what makes the human better than the AI. I think the only thing we would have done differently is the exploration side, but it is still frustrating.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Above, where Alerum went to the diplo screen, and checked their techs, but made no deals, is it still considered contact because he chose to go to the diplo screen?

The general rule of thumb that is used in AW games is if they show up on your F4 screen, you have contact. I assumed we were using that protocol. Hopefully MB will make that the rule. Otherwise, you could just not go to F4 or the diplo screen and ignor a civ for a long time.

 

[denyd]

The way I read the rules, is the clock didn't start until you had your first diplomatic one on one with the leader. You could have seen the Greek Hoplites and gone 10-15 turns before they popped up to say hi and had been at peace for those turns. Of course, once that screen opened you had to make all the deals you could, then declare war before closing the screen.

In theory, if we hadn't contacted France the clock on them would not have started yet.

As for expansion, I favor going W, SW & S. That will save us having to have a large defensive force for the new cities. We should find out who is the weaker of England and France and try to take them out first.

Just a question from a newbee to AW variants. If Greece comes to us with a deal giving something (for example, Iron Working) for peace, can we take it and then declare war before closing the diplomacy screen. Technically we'd have been at peace for a second, yet each turn would have been played as a being at war turn.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

The way I read the rules, is the clock didn't start until you had your first diplomatic one on one with the leader. You could have seen the Greek Hoplites and gone 10-15 turns before they popped up to say hi and had been at peace for those turns. Of course, once that screen opened you had to make all the deals you could, then declare war before closing the screen.

If this is the rules, I'm going to be really because it flies in the face of conventional AW and NOW thought.

In theory, if we hadn't contacted France the clock on them would not have started yet.

The way I now understand the rules, the clock started on every civ the moment we met the Greeks. Every 20 turns thereafter (or less in case we eliminate a civ) we have to declare war on the next civ in line.

As for expansion, I favor going W, SW & S. That will save us having to have a large defensive force for the new cities. We should find out who is the weaker of England and France and try to take them out first.

We know the Greeks are to our SE, where did the others come from?

Just a question from a newbee to AW variants. If Greece comes to us with a deal giving something (for example, Iron Working) for peace, can we take it and then declare war before closing the diplomacy screen. Technically we'd have been at peace for a second, yet each turn would have been played as a being at war turn.

Once again conventional wisdom says you never get to make peace...Ever...You stay at war until either you're dead or the other civ is dead.

 

[grahamiam]

We know the Greeks are to our SE, where did the others come from?

good point, alerum please pipe in and tell us.

as far as I know, this is where attacks are occuring from and where my original contact was made.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Then more likely than not, the Greeks are due east of us. Getting some units on those mountains may be a good idea.

Edit - I have a great knack today of stating the obvious.

 

[RowAndLive]

Incidentally, to add to the pile of obvious statements, Bede indeed will have to declare on England during or before his 5th turn. Then, Bugs will have to declare on France in his 5th turn (or 20 or less turns after Bede declares), or as soon as Greece is eliminated, if sooner.

IIRC, Bede is UP. R&L is On Deck.

 

[Bede]

the other thing we should do with england, now that we know our rep is toast, is to buy everything we can from her for gpt just before declaring. even all her cash, just take everything. do the same to France and Russia as well if logical. like I stated earlier, Bede will have some interesting turns and will need to visit his local clergy for all the sins about to be commited

Local clergy, hell, I'm heading for the archbishop's palace and hirong an exorcist.

Got it. Will try to work out a plan tonight. There is a lot of reading to do and Ithink a couple of spreadsheets and maybe a database.

 

[denyd]

From the mini-map, the number of AI we've met and the terrain to the SW I'm guessing we're in the SW corner of a continent.

Probably Greeks to the S/SE and French & English to the N & NE.

Sending an Archer in those mountains is probably a good idea. He can scout, pillage and maybe with a little luck pick off a worker or settler heading out.

I guess capturing a worker and selling him is probably verbotten, too (never mind that last idea).

I've got a question about declaring on the new people we've me. Am I correct that if we are currently at war with someone, we've got 20 turns grace to declare on the new contact as long as we remain at war with someone during those 20 turns. If so, then we probably want to remain at war with Greece for a while and attack the French & English (weaker defenders) as the 20 turn grace expires and we shouldn't care about if we have troops in their territory at the time.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

We have to remain at war with Greece until they are dead. 20 turns after we started the Greek war we have to declare on the English. That will be in 1950 BC or five turns into Bede's turn. Then 20 turns after that, about turn 5 of my set, we have to declare on the French. We can never make peace with someone after we've started the war.

 

[Bede]

ivs Met:
1) Greeks - 2750BC
2) England 2270BC war in 1950BC
3) France - 2230BC war in 1375BC

To summarize the thinking to this point:

Pack in our towns in an RCP4 ring.

Specialize the towns:
Rome: troops and settlers (occasional)
City 2 barracks for attack and defense
City 3 only improvement granary and settlers/workers
City 4 barracks for defense
City 5 temple to GL
City 6 barracks only, build attackers

Settlement order

What I will set out to do is settle the blue spot and start a unit factory. Hunker down and defend the homeland.
Defraud the French, English and whoever else we might encounter Ifind in the F4 screen Declare on England in 1950BC.

 

[alerum68]

England came from the northeast, and the french were in the F4 screen. You mean I didn't have to make contact even though they were in the diplo screen? I read several AWs where this was debated and finally decided that the rules should state that if they're in the F4 screen, you must make contact. But with the lay of the land, the French have to be to the north of northwest of us. I don't think there's to much more to the southwest.

One thing... i think the Greece is due east, not southeast of us. Every unit came from the east, but most were NORTH of our city, not to the south...

Guys all hope is not lost... We're in a much better position the AWE games I've read, and besides the one I'm in, that's about all I read. We have been able to get techs, and when in AW you have no rep... Exploration? WOuld that really help? I say we don't explore anymore and wait for everyone to come to us. Stick to the eastern half of the world, and take out Greece. DO NOT go north. We've met 4 civs... we can always limit it to just those 4 for a while, and kill them before we try and find another... especially since we don't have to call them up if we don't want to.

We have nothing tradable at this time, besides Writing. I don't think we'll make enough contacts in the next 5 turns to be able to use what little of our rep is left.

Bugsy, don't loose hope, you know this game is far from over. Greece is sending defensive units to us... they are hurting already, and their intial gift of units is now gone, at the cost of only 1 of our units. One thing about the varient... we're going to be razing alot of cities... we *NEED* a settler factory, non-stop.

 

[RowAndLive]

I'd like to hear a few opinions on the green sites: ring, X or settle on the wheat to get the river and keep RCP?

I don't think that all is lost - I just said that we're now behind. I don't mind the exploration idea, because we can then plan ahead since we know what war is coming and when. Failing all else, we then have some tech & map trading possibilities with the further out (in time) civs if we meet everyone early. Given MB-s statement, "if we run out of targets before meeting the next"... I'm guessing that we're on continents, and so may not be able to meet everyone early. In any case, I still think planning ahead and having SOME trade opportuniity is better than taking them as they come, and getting no benefit at all. This is a fairly big strategy item, so everyone should weigh-in with an opinion.

I'm guessing that I already know the answer, but just to ask the question anyway - If someone declares on us due to an AI alliance, but we don't have to declare on them for another 60 turns or whatever due to contact order, can we then have a peaceful interim? I'm guessing no, but it raises interesting possibilities.

 

[Bede]

Here's another look at a settlement plan (red squares are RCP4, green RCP6):

 

[RowAndLive]

To clarify, I put up a few 6's, only because I could see them, and we were sparce in covering that area. Denyd had suggested D=7 for the second ring.

If we build at 2, the corner 3, and on the BG NW of the small lake to the S, our coverage would be better, but I didn't think we'd want to waste the BG that way.

Also, the 2 should be a little higher, on the end D=4 tile.

Nice map.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I haven't lost hope, I was just ticked off yesterday. I'm over it now.

I like the 4 & 6 RCP idea. I think it will give us a tight build.

@ Alerum - yes we need a settler factory. You are correct. I think with G-man's plan, we can have a nice one at Veii.

Personally, I wouldn't settle on the wheat. We're going to need the food over there. I was thinking that the tile 1S of the wheat was forest, but I can now see that I was wrong. I think we ought to go 1 NE of the wheat so that it is only next to one mountain.

If this map is continents, we'll be in good shape.

@ Alerum - Who is the fourth civ? AFAIK, we've only met the Greeks, English, and French.

I stirred up the pot over in the maintenance thread about when you have contact. MB, had some good points on why F4 shouldn't count. I respectfully disagree.

 

[grahamiam]

yes, i read the comments just now. basically, there is no penalty for exploring since contact is defined when you negociate via F4, not when you see them. imho, get an explorer going N to locate the English so we know where the bullseye is located. once he finds them, go E to find the greek border.

in the meantime, we need another worker to get the settler pump setup as well as units.

as for the wheat, the distance 6 city will get to use it as it will be on a river (probably). i think we should forget about letting a distance 4 city use it.

edit: btw, i'm away on July 16 and 17th partying. will be away on business on the 19th thru 23rd. not sure about internet access during the business trip. will check in if possible.

 

[Bede]

S'right.

Settle 1, build at least one more worker, send a unit north then east, make all the deals I can on turn 4, declare war on the English on turn 5, set up Veii to equip settlers and the new town to produce troops.

 

[Bede]

"There once was a young lass from Norway,
Who hung by her heels in a doorway.
She said to her husband named Sven,
Get up off that bed,
I think I just found one more way"

I have PM'd MB and Bugsy about a situation I have encountered. So, will not post until I hear a reply.

Not much to report otherwise. Greeks sent an archer against out mountain sentries and founded Thermopylae to the SE of Rome. It appears that our first neighbors north are the French, and the English are north of there. Founded Antium north of Rome per map, acquired Iron Working and we have iron inside the borders.

 

[RowAndLive]

@Bede - is Thermopylae on or within the 9 tiles of one of our intended sites?

Waiting patiently for the save...