SGOTM4 - Team Bede

[Zakharov]

I don't think we need to abandon Carthage right away. I'm at work so I can't pull up the save, but isn't there some Wool south of Rome? If so then it might be better to raze Rome and settle a new city 1 (?) tile away that could get 2 Cows, a Wheat, an Iron, and a Wool or two. I also think it might be better to take out Antium first as we don't want a force harrasing our supply lines.

I was also going to suggest that capturing Rome is a bad idea, and these points make me even more convinced. There are two reasons I don't want Rome:

1) As I have stated repeatedly, I do not like having foreign citizens in our cities. They will cause too much war weariness when we are at war with the Romans later in this game. We will be at war often because we will need to go leader fishing.

2) The position Rome is in now will have some wasted tiles at size 20 due to the inland lake. We need 20 land tiles surrounding a city there for full productivity. As MOTH has said, we should settle a new city 1 tile SW of Rome's current position.

 

[Zakharov]

Right, I'll lower research on monarchy since Heroic Epic is better for culture/shields and leaders.

Does this mean you are planning to switch the Palace prebuild to the Heroic Epic? We only get one shot at the Hanging Gardens, but the HE is a small wonder so it can be built at any time. Are we confident that no other civ can build the HG within the next 16 turns? As there are no other wonders for the AI to prebuild they would have to build it from scratch. It is certainly a gamble.

If we build the HE in 1 turn and the HG in 16, we gain 40 culture compared to building the HG in 6 turns and the HE in 16. This is 4 per turn for five turns between 1 and 6, and an extra 4 per turn because the 1000 year mark arrives five turns sooner. Is 40 culture points in 20,000 worth the risk of missing out on the Hanging Gardens?

Of course, if we build the HE and then get a leader, we can get the HG within the next 10 turns.

 

[fbouthil]

I realized about 1 hour after my post this morning that I should never have suggested capturing Rome. I completely agree that it must be replace. On the other hand, I do not like settling one tile SW of Rome as it is still too far to get wool and it is getting too far for its border to join Theveste, leaving enough space between them for other civs to put a city.

Unfortunately, I do not see any spots as good. One tile NW of Rome is not bad, but compared to one tile SW of Rome, it replaces H + 2BG by 2 Coast + J. It would still have a pretty decent production and I think the production at size 12 is much more important than the one at size 20.

Of course, if you have a good tactic about preventing other civs to settle between the new city and Theveste, I agree with one tile SW of Rome. Another possibility is to prevent the romans from settling there and make friends with Persia or India with a RoP if they settle there.

 

[MOTH]

We can get a blockade in the West.

Obviously we need to place a galley on the red dot on our side of the straights.

In the East it looks like we are far enough away.

In the South it looks like it maybe difficult to block. Maybe we will have an option once we have explored more.

 

[TimBentley]

Does this mean you are planning to switch the Palace prebuild to the Heroic Epic? We only get one shot at the Hanging Gardens, but the HE is a small wonder so it can be built at any time. Are we confident that no other civ can build the HG within the next 16 turns? As there are no other wonders for the AI to prebuild they would have to build it from scratch. It is certainly a gamble.

If we build the HE in 1 turn and the HG in 16, we gain 40 culture compared to building the HG in 6 turns and the HE in 16. This is 4 per turn for five turns between 1 and 6, and an extra 4 per turn because the 1000 year mark arrives five turns sooner. Is 40 culture points in 20,000 worth the risk of missing out on the Hanging Gardens?

Of course, if we build the HE and then get a leader, we can get the HG within the next 10 turns.

According to my research spreadsheet, they are (relatively significantly) more likely to research construction than monarchy (and I didn't bother to alter the cost due to our knowledge). The reason for my thought to build the Heroic Epic first was solely the leaders (although extra culture isn't bad).

 

[TimBentley]

50(0)-switch Utica to Heroic Epic for greater leader chances.
set science to 10%
move some catapults for attack on Antium

IBT-Utica Heroic Epic->palace
Rome moves some archers, founds Viroconium near old Pompeii
Theveste archer->archer
build steps and columns on palace

70(1)-find Samarra of Babylon on a one-tile island
Babylon knows monarchy, lacks construction and republic, has 9 cities, horses, iron, dyes, incense
They're building Hanging Gardens in Akkad
archer kills Roman archer
find a one-tile island with a mountain

IBT-Roman archers move
Carthage worker->worker

90(2)-bombard Antium, army kills spearman

IBT-Roman archers move
Roman settler pair drops off next to NuMerc
LMOZ1-NuMerc->NuMerc, MM it for two-turn NuMercs

110(3)-bombard Antium, army kills spear, archer dies to spear
NuMerc kills spear to capture Roman settler

IBT-Indians drop off settler pair by ivory
Carthage worker->worker
Theveste archer->archer
Can you guess what Rome does?

130(4)-Greece knows feudalism
Scandinavia, Babylon (who is not scientific) are also in Middle Ages

IBT-LMOZ1 NuMerc->NuMerc
Rome...

150(5)-bombard Antium, don't attack yet
Find wines in the middle of the ocean

IBT- India founds city by ivory
Greeks start Sun Tzu's Art of War
I'm not going to bother mentioning Roman archer movements

170(6)-bombard archer, archer dies to archer, vet NuMerc dies to archer, vet NuMerc kills archer, elite NuMerc kills archer, elite NuMerc kills archer
bombard Antium, archer dies against spearman, archer kills spearman, NuMerc kills spearman, NuMerc kills archer, razes Antium, getting one slave

IBT-Carthage worker->archer
LMOZ1 NuMerc->NuMerc
Theveste archer->archer
Hippo aqueduct->library
Vikings establish embassy

190(7)-NuMerc kills archer to capture settler

IBT-Celts declare war on Vikings
learn monarchy, shut off research

210(8)-Hanging Gardens in 8 turns
bombard Viroconium, one archer promotes in razing the city

IBT-LMOZ1 NuMerc->NuMerc

230(9)-zzz

IBT-Theveste archer->archer (2-turn archers)

250(10)-Stack begins to move on Rome

Notes: Sorry if we lose Hanging Gardens to Babylon. I still think we can get it first.
The western blockade has been set. I think when I was looking into other possible blockades, I was thinking ocean was more than one movement point .

Here is the save.

A picture speaks a thousand words:

 

[Zakharov]

Well we can only hope Akkad is not producing anywhere near as many shields as Utica. If we do miss the HG with 1 turn left, we will have to do some gifting and then buy techs from scientific civs for Republic and Monarchy. If we miss out by more than 1 turn then we can use the Palace prebuild again, gift the scientific civs into the MA and hope for Feudalism from the GLib.

If we do get the HG, we need to get started on a Sun Tzu's prebuild right away. I just hope we get a leader, or we will miss out on either Sun Tzu's or Leo's. Both of these cost 600 shields, as does the Sistine Chapel. That's 90 turns in Utica to build all three. Can we slow the tech rate enough? I don't think so, in which case a leader will be like gold dust to us.

Looking at our military, we are paying 70gpt. The warrior in Utica must go as it is a waste of 2gpt. The archer in LMOZ1 should be moved to the front lines. We are in Republic, so we cannot use these units for military police. If you want two units for defence then use NuMercs.

Losing the ivory is not important at the moment. We need to spend 20% on luxuries with or without it. If we can get a supply of wool, then we need to get the ivory back asap. I think three luxuries will allow us to drop the lux rate to 10%, especially if we build marketplaces.

If we raze Rome, then it looks like none of their other cities have any culture. If we settle our fifth city in that area, we need to get culture buildings in there fast. If we can get some flips, we can accept the cities and raze them. If they settle between Theveste and the new city, we can go back to war with them. If we control the iron, then the Romans stand no chance against our NuMercs and Med. Infantry.

We have no need to worry about our reputation by declaring war within 20 turns of making peace. We have been razing cities and will continue to do so, and this is a bigger rep hit. We are going for a 20K win, so we must keep focussed on that goal, don't worry about good diplomacy.

Anyway, just some random thoughts about the state of the game so far.

 

[MOTH]

Thoughts for my turn:

1. I think we should get peace with Rome once we capture Rome. They will probably give us one or 2 cities in the peace.

2. I will build 1 more settler if Tim hasn't yet to get it to the new location near Rome.

3. Once we have peace with Rome we can look into getting the Ivory back. We might need to beef up the blockade with a second galley to prevent passage.

 

[fbouthil]

I agree with the discussed plan against Rome.

Sun Tzu or Leo brings only 2 cpt. I do not care if we lose them. SC is 6cpt and is a must. If we have to build Sun Tzu to keep the sh accumulated for HG, I think we should consider it a prebuild for SC.

We have 7 slaves and almost all tiles that we will use until we get hospitals have been improved. We should join all the workers to Hippo & Theveste, keeping only slaves.

I would also prefer if Hippo was building a market instead of a lib because of our high unit costs. Switch the archer being built in Carthage to a settler. You can also build the settler in Theveste to get it faster and replace its population by joining workers built in Carthage.

Rome is still size 6. It must be making settlers. Fools!

Persia has an extra horse. We cannot trade for it yet, but I think we should try to stay friends with them so we can trade for it when we get astronomy.

 

[MOTH]

oh yeah. Got it. Will look to implement fbouthils suggestions.

I think we can't trade for the horse because we don't have a harbor. Theveste will start one soon.

 

[TimBentley]

Razing cities only affects attitude, not reputation.

Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's are not vital to a 20k victory.

We also need astronomy to establish a sea route with Persia for trade.

The warrior could be disbanded when cathedral production begins, so rushing would not have the double penalty. But maybe saving money now is a good plan.

 

[Bede]

The limited cash resources in an XCC game make libraries more useful for cultural expansion than research, so marketplaces and banks are a better choice than libraries/universities to fuel research. With no more than 5 libraries/universities the cash drain for maintenance often exceeds the research value generated.

Also in a 5CC cultural victory SunT is not a good value for the shields. Sistine Chapel is much better with SunT as a prebuild for the chapel.

On the reputation/attitude hit for breaking peace treaties/razing cities I think breaking a peace treaty has the same effect as breaking any other twenty turn deal. It makes making any term deal a matter of threatening war. The attitude hit for razing cities is more of an annoyance then anything else as it makes the other guy more likely to declare war on the smallest provocation.

Can we use technology to foment war on the other continent(s) and get the scientific civs caught up that way while slowing the researchpace at the same time?

Unless War Weariness is a problem I wouldn't be in a hurry to make peace with Rome. Another MGL real soon will be a big help.

 

[MOTH]

250AD(0) - Hippo grass to hills for 1 turn savings on Library. I may have to be moved back to grass next turn after growth. Theveste switched to courthouse.

IBT - archers. LMOZ1: Mercs. The Greeks are building hanging gardens. They are still building Sun Tzu's as well.

260AD(1) - Bomb an Archer and attack with Elite Merc.

ibt - archers. Carthage Archer>Settler

270AD(2) - Bomb some archers. 4/4 Archer v 2/3 Archer - we lose. 4/4 Merc v 1/3 archer we win and are 2/4. Elite Merc v 1/3 archer we win. 4/4 Archer v 2/3 archer across a river we win. Adjust MM on Hippo and Theveste.

IBT - archers. We Learn Fuedalism from the Greeks and Germans. Switch to Mono in forever. LMOZ1 Mercs.

280AD(3) - Per Fbouthil's suggestion switched Hippo to market.

ibt - archers.

290AD(4) - War weariness is kicking in (affecting LMOZ1 and TheVeste)- Luxury to 30%. 5/5 merc v 3/3 archer we go to 4/5. 4/4 Merc v 3/3 Archer we go 3/4. 4/4 merc v 3/3 archer we go 1/4.

ibt - archers. 3/3 archer v 3/4 Merc we win and get promoted to 4/5. Rome moves a 2/3 Archer out of Rome. LMOZ Mercs.

300AD(5) - Attack on Rome (still size 6) - 6 Bombard gets: 1 hit on 3/3 legion and 1 hit on 3/3 spear. 3/3 spear is showing. Attack proceeding. 4/4 archer vs 3/3 spear - we get 1 hit and promote the spear to 3/4. 4/4 archer vs 3/4 spear we get 2 hits and expose 2/3 Legion. 5/5 Merc vs 2/3 Legion - we win and go to 4/5. 3/3 Archer vs 2/3 spear we win and go to 2/3 and expose 3/3 archer. 5/5 merc vs 3/3 archer - we lose and get 1 hit 4/5 merc vs 1/4 spear we win. 12/12 army vs 2/3 archer we win and capture Rome (soon to be abandoned.)

Other attacks: 4/4 merc vs 3/3 archer we win and go 1/4. 4/4 merc vs 2/3 archer we win and go 2/4. 4/4 merc vs 3/3 archer we win. 4/4 merc vs 3/3 archer we win. 4/5 merc vs 3/3 archer we win and are 1/5. I can no longer see any Roman archers!

Rome will give us Veii, Ravenna, and Hispalis for Peace so I take it. They also give us 2 workers and 24G for Poly. Theveste switches from Couthouse in 2 to Forbidden Palace in 11 (with no growth). Ravenna has a harbor that I sell. I abbandon Rome, Ravenna, Veii, and Hispalis. Rome now has 3 cities.

Check about shopping stuff around. Ottomons have Engineering and will give it to us for all techs we know. I take this deal as they would get it from Greece or Germans and it will keep us with a trading advantage over Greece/Germany. It will also put Otto in disorder for a few turns and stop his research.

I check sliders now that we're at peace, but can't adjust yet.

IBT - Hanging Gardens in Utica!

Utica starts Sun Tzu's in 29 turns. Babs, Greeks, and Germans are all building Sun Tzu's.

310AD(6) - With 1 entertainer in Theveste we can switch Luxury back to 20% for 13 GPT (+25gpt now).

IBT - Roman settler triplet move toward old Veii. Settler in Carthage. LMOZ1 Merc>Market. Hippo Market>Harbor.

320AD(7) - Barb camp on old Veii. Move to block Roman Settler. Trade India Poly for Worker and 9 G. Rome gets Monarchy for 15G + 6GPT.

IBT - Rome builds Lutetia on Wool. Roman archer kills barb camp.

330AD(8) - Build a Wool Colony. Allows Theveste Entertainer to be a scientist.

IBT - 5 Spear move to Lutetia.

340AD(9) - ZZZ

IBT - Greece demands Engineering. I call their bluff.

350AD(10) - Theveste laborer put back to work. Hippo Taxman changed to Scientist.

Situation:
Firaxis 353
Jason 467

save is here

There is an Indian Galley on our side of the crossing that has been moving toward the crossing. I think we should move 1 tile South and let it cross and then put the blockade back in place.

I started the Forbidden Palace in Theveste as I didn't think we would get as easy an opportunity to build it in Utica and it should help fight corruption, especially in new Rome.

Settler is within 2 or 3 moves from settling. We need to decide location. I think the BG 2 SW of old Rome would be good but we'd have to take out the new Roman city for full expansion.

Lots of units near Rome. I apologize that I got us into the GPT deal. It would have been nice to just break peace. They will also give us 9GPT and 60G for currency. 17turns left on current GPT deal so maybe we take that too and we go after India instead.

Utica will soon get 1 more shield as I'm planting a forest to be done IBT. A second forest or two should get us to maximum size 12 production.

I wasn't sure what to do with Carthage. It will have 3 shields and we could rush one more thing before we abandon it.

Units: 42 - 13 allowed. 58GPT cost. 1 settler, 3 native workers, 5 archers, 6 catapults, 3 galley, 1 Army, 23 Mercs, 9 slaves.

Roster:
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley
MOTH - It may not come back to me, but skip 10/1-10/3 (be back at 5pm EST)

 

[MOTH]

One more note: Due to the bombarding I killed the Roman Legion in 1 attack, so I think we avoided Rome's Golden age. Of course all it would have meant was a ton more Archers to kill so maybe we should have let them get the GA...

 

[TimBentley]

Good work on Rome and good job getting the forbidden palace started in Theveste.

Regarding the gpt deal, it only prolongs the peace by a few turns, since breaking the peace treaty would hurt just as breaking the gpt deal would.

 

[MOTH]

I like this location for new Rome. On expansion it gets 5BG, 2 Cow, 2 Wool, 1 Wheat, 2 hills, and 10 or 11 tiles with the river commerce bonus. 1 NE trades the 2 wools for the 1 iron and a few more rivers. The Wool are killer: 3 food, 2 Shields, 2 Gold, Luxury before improvement.

 

[TimBentley]

That looks like a good spot, although that Roman city will have to go. :devil2:

 

[Bede]

Nice job on the FP and the war with Rome.

Indians make nice leader farms too, and deending on their location on the map and relative strength might make good furball candidates.

Will pick up and play tomorrow.

 

[Zakharov]

@MOTH Good job with the FP. I didn't think it would be possible to build it as I imagined we would have to waste shields and pop on settlers. Getting those Roman towns was an excellent move.

I think the harbour in Hippo should be changed to a courthouse or colosseum. As some of you have already stated, we cannot trade with Persia until we get astronomy, and we do not need veteran boats. The colosseum would allow the scientist to work a tile, and the courthouse would cut corruption and give us a few more commerce.

Remember to sell the barracks in Carthage before disbanding it. It's only 5 gold, but it's better than nothing.

Ok, I agree with settling on the BG. We just need to make sure the Romans do not settle next to the iron. Keep a wall of NuMercs around the iron hill while we develop culture in the new city.

Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's are not vital to a 20k victory.

All culture producing buildings are vital to a 20K victory. Yes, the Sistine Chapel is more important, but I would like to get at least one if not both of Sun Tzu's and Leo's, as well as the SC. The more culture buildings we can get, the quicker the 20K win will come.

 

[fbouthil]

All right! Everything is going according to plan. Great job MOTH!

Check about shopping stuff around. Ottomons have Engineering and will give it to us for all techs we know. I take this deal as they would get it from Greece or Germans and it will keep us with a trading advantage over Greece/Germany. It will also put Otto in disorder for a few turns and stop his research.

You applied here a tactic that is unfamiliar to me. I understand that since Otto has all tech, he won't trade engineering for another tech to other civ and since the other civs lack any money, Otto won't probably trade to anyone, but I do not understand how it puts Otto in disorder and stop research. What do you mean by that exactly? It sounds like a very interesting tactics.

How about rushing a temple in New Rome to get access to the food bonuses faster? We have enough money and we have 25t to build enough cash to rush a catedral in Utica when the wonder is finished. With the new territory, New Rome should boost our score!

@Zakharov: Building all 3 wonders in Utica would be great. To do that, we would need to prevent the other civs from using Sun Tzu as prebuild for Leo & SC, or get 2 GL. Remember that many civ used HG as prebuild for Sun Tzu. I think building Sun Tzu & Leo without GL is unrealistic. Maybe we can build one + SC, but in any case, SC should be first or we risk losing it.

If we are going against India, then I suggest we send our elite units (2 NuMercs + 1 archer) with catapults to maximize the chances of getting GL. I think it takes about 10t for those units to get to Kilhapur, so in 20t, they would be back near the Romans for the next roman war.

I would have to disagree with building coloseum. We will have access to cathedrals soon. They bring much more happiness, especially because of the SC we are building. But I agree that Hippo does not need a harbor. Theveste does need one to grow faster. Theveste also need a market, but none are vital enough to rush.