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SGOTM4 - Team Bede

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, Sep 19, 2004.

  1. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Montreal (Canada)
    1250BC (preturn) - Trade HR for 5gpt + 101g

    IBT - The people :love: me and expand the palace. Warriors move back.

    1225BC (1) - :sleep:

    1200BC (2) - Blocking one warrior, slowing down the other (not enough units for block).

    1175BC (3) - Same thing.

    IBT - Utica grows and MapStat says I will need more lux. Rome learns MM.

    1150BC (4) - Lux to 30%

    IBT - Zak#1: NuMerc->Temple. Ceasar establishes an embassy.

    1125BC (5) - Research dropped to 20%, lit still in 1t. Complete mountain block line of archers & warriors. :nya:

    IBT



    I should have left a hole in that wall and toy with them a little more.
    Roman warrior attacks fortified archer in mountain, kills it without a scratch and promote to veteran. :(
    Research lit -> philo in 13t at 30%, lux down to 20% as war happiness is enough to keep Utica happy.

    1100BC (6)
    Switch Utica to TGLib due in 9t.
    Archer killed attacking roman warrior on hills, NuMerc kills it. GA! TGLib now in 7t.
    Leave the roman warrior on a mountain; wait until it is on a more favorable ground to attack it.
    Hum. Carthage settler is now due in 2t and will grow only in 3. Oh well, we will loose 1t of production, that's all.
    NuMerc N, sees 2 barb horses.

    IBT - barb horse move out of sight. roman warrior closes on Zak#1, but still on M. Roman archer appears 2 tiles of Theveste.

    1075BC (7)
    Move 4 units in Zak#1 for defense (what else do you want me to do with them anyway?)
    NuMerc N moves to see the 2 barb horses.

    IBT - Roman warrior fortifies. Roman archer goes around Theveste.

    1050BC (8) - NuMerc N moves next to the 2 barb horses.

    IBT
    An archer & a warrior appear near Theveste. One barb horse attacks and fail.
    Cathage: settler -> archer

    1025BC (9)
    Move Elite NuMerc back toward Theveste (healed). I think it will be more needed there.
    NuMerc N goes next to barb horse & sees barb camp.
    workers finish the road for the spice city and I realize I did not need to make a road on the settling spot as the settler is 3 tiles from it.

    IBT
    Roman archer redlines NuMerc
    The people :love: me and expand the palace. I am definitely the favorite ruler of the people. I do not know why as I seem to have screw up the game a little bit.

    1000BC (10)
    Archer takes roman warrior near Zak#1. Hum. Sounds like chess.
    NuMerc disperse barb camp.
    NuMerc kills roman warrior on H. Now at 3/5, but next to a roman archer. I think that was a mistake. I hope It will survive the IBT.


    Careful, there is a barb horse 2 NE of the NuMerc in the N.
    The Settler is at the spot someone suggested for the spice city (MOTH IIRC).
    I am guessing only Rome has access to iron; the other cities not being connected to Rome yet. That explains why we only see warriors & archers.
    Utica is producing 23spt and will complete TGLib in 3t. To build a lib in 3t without pop-rushing, you will need to disband for 11sh or join a worker to labor the 2nd cow and disband one archer. Since Rome is busy building the pyramids, we may very well not see any swords in this war.
    Plan the next wonder carefully. When philo is researched, if you think you won't be able to trade for myst before the palace prebuild is finished, then we should research it ourselves (I hope it does not come to that).

    Save
    Score: 160
    Jason: 212

    I hope I did not screw the game too much. I thought I was being clever making a wall of archers & warriors, but it caused a war (unless it is the embassy showing no garrison in Carthage?).

    Rooster

    TimBentley - up
    MOTH (skipping until 26th) - on deck?
    Bede
    Zakharov - played this morning
    fbouthil - just played

    Maybe we should put MOTH to his original place just before me, if TimBentley plays soon.
     
  2. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    We were going to be at war sooner or later. The only way to prevent it was to allow the Roman exploring warriors to head N. As I stated in a previous post, we were being sucked into a despotic golden age with the combination of:
    - sharing a small island with an aggressive civ
    - our UU being the only defensive unit available between Bronze working and Gunpowder
    - not having iron or horses to take the offensive with swords/horsemen
    - scientific research slowed by having only 1 civ to trade with
    - The Republic being a long time away

    I think we won't be the only team who has a despotic GA. In fact, if any of them avoid it then I will be very impressed. At least we no longer have to be scared about using our NuMercs now. Get them onto the battlefield. :ar15:

    Our main objective in this war is to destroy Pompeii. The Romans will not resettle it as it is too close to Theveste. If we can either take Rome or raze it and settle near the iron, that would be a huge bonus. Maybe we could send a few units in for the sole purpose of pillaging tile improvements. If we can cut that iron supply it would really help us.

    If we can do enough damage to the Romans, we can hopefully demand MM in a peace treaty. :)

    -----------------------------

    edit: I just looked at the save. We can run science at 70% and get Philosophy in 3 turns, while still getting a gold surplus. On this small island, research is more important than gold, so we should make maximum use of our golden age to gain techs as quick as possible. :beer:
     
  3. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    With what military units to you suggest we do that?!? :confused:

    We have just a little bit more troops than we need for defense. Theveste has 2 NuMerc & 1 warrior. Zak#1 has 1 NuMerc, 1 archer & 1 warrior. Rome seems to have Carthage as target, probably because it does not have any garrison, so it will send troop close to Zak#1, so we cannot spare more than the warrior there. We also have a NuMerc half way to Theveste, but it is wounded and next to a roman archer so it might not survive the next IBT (a mistake on my part :blush: ).

    Both cities will complete a temple soon, but only Zak#1 has a barrack. Another mistake on my part was that I forgot :blush: to change Zak#1 production to military units when Rome declared war. When I realized that I should have done that, it already had more than 30sh accumulated so I decide to complete the temple. It should help our score, but it means we have less units to defend ourselves, which is the priority here.

    I am farely certain we have enough units to defend ourselves since swords are not coming yet, but I really do not see how we can take the offense (no offense intended Zakharov :crazyeye: ). Of course, in despotism, we are in no hurry to make peace, so we may be able to build enough units to attack before the end of the war. :)

    On the bright side, we saved 75g on HR (5gpt for the 15t left in the deal) when Rome declared war. :beer: Again, I should have used more gpt in the deal.

    Of course, we have keep the focus on Utica. It should finish TGLib in 3t, a lib in 3-4t later and start a wonder prebuild afterward. If we increase research to 70% as Zakharov suggested (we could even support 80% with a low -2gpt and 254g in treasury), philo, CoL & Myst could all be researched in 15t. The palace prebuild is good for 13t only so I do not think we can research republic before myst.

    I usually like having fast research when I can afford it and cannot buy any tech with it, but since almost everyone talked about keeping research low before I played, I did not want to increase it.
     
  4. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    I got it and will play tomorrow. I might comment soon, or I might be too tired (marching around carrying something heavy can do that to me).

    I guess I'm not too tired. It looks like I won't be able to take much aggressive action. I agree with taking advantage of the golden age with high research. It would be nice to get a better wonder than the Oracle (although it would allow the lux to remain at 20% once the spices are connected and war happiness expires), but I don't think we can research a better one in time. I'm not worried about the NuMerc; being on a hill, it has a better than 2/3 chance of surviving if attacked.
     
  5. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    I would keep the research effort focused on only two things: getting to the Middle Ages and Republic. The remaining AA culture buildings are too costly for the culture per turn. We can get a cathedral in Utica for 160 shields and that is a better deal than the Oracle at 300 as it will be built faster, therefore reach doubling age sooner. And there is another continent out there somewhere

    I see no need to run research faster than we can accumulate the shields for whatever our target building may be as right now we have no trading opportunities and won't until we get some boats in the water or somebody else's galley shows up off our coast.

    By all means, however, pour money into Republic and whatever we need to know to make the transition to the Middle Ages. Once we get to those two things we can re-evaluate.

    First things first, though, we need to put a leash on the Romans.
     
  6. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    I fully agree here. We already have the Colossus and soon we will have the GLib. We can't expect to get all of the AA wonders. In my test game I managed to get the Hanging Gardens, maybe we should go for this instead of the Oracle. Monarchy will be a long time away, so we can afford to wait.

    The Republic should be a priority for us, as we need the extra commerce as well as the lower level of corruption. We must research Philosophy, Code of Laws then the Republic.

    Research should be ramped up from now on for three reasons:
    1) There is another continent somewhere, probably with many civs likely trading techs with each other. If this is the case then by the time we discover them, we will be far behind in the tech race.
    2) We are at war with Rome, so we are not trading techs with them to speed up our research.
    3) We have no horses and no iron. What are we going to spend our gold on? We can't do mass upgrades, so we may as well plough it into research.

    The GLib will not give us any techs until we meet some more civs, so we cannot afford minimal research. The tactic of slowing down the tech pace is only necessary when we know many civs.

    Of course we may get a leader IBT ;) If that happens, we can afford to rethink.

    edit: I have just had another look at the save. Our science advisor tells us that we are indeed a backward civ. :(
     
  7. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    I would have to disagree. It is going to take a lot of time before we get Mono so the Oracle would be built much earlier. In my test game with a similar Carthagian city, I built (without GL) colossus, TGLib, Oracle, HG & TGWall and I was using the capital so not much of a prebuild. I agree that we should build a cathedral as soon as we have mono, but I think we should build anything that can give us culture in Utica before that. With the production we have in Utica, Oracle can be built in only 14t! IMHO, we have a good chance of getting it.

    On the other had, I agree with increasing research to get republic faster. I would research myst first (if we cannot get it from Rome), just to prevent Utica from building anything else than culture.

    I would not count on having a GL as we are not militaristic but it is still worth a shot to do anything to get one.

    BTW, in my test game, I did something that may be considered a exploit for the 5CC. I am not sure it is permitted, but I will say it just in case. I was at war with Egypt, when Cleo asked for peace IBT and I got 2 cities for it. In the same IBT, I finished a research and from there got to the 2 new cities and rushed units! On the next turn, I abandoned the cities to have only 5 cities at the end of a turn, but got some production out of the 2 new cities. It is not very useful since they have 0 sh and rushing costs double, but it could be used to get a worker.
     
  8. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    What would you suggest building in Utica if not the Oracle? I can't see getting to the middle ages or monarchy in 20 turns unless we manage to meet the other continent. Maybe we could build a colosseum, but I don't like going for construction just for that purpose. Regardless, I'll probably research philosophy and code of laws and reevaluate there.
     
  9. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    If we can end this war with Rome soon, we could try to get Map Making from them, making the Lighthouse available. It is not the best wonder for culture but it will be useful to help us meet the other civs. Maybe the Romans will have Mysticism to trade as well?

    I still say we should shoot for Republic and hope Rome researches the wonder techs.

    ----------------------------

    edit: I see TimBentley has posted his save. I await the turn log. :)

    Looking at the save, we can get peace with Rome now for one of the following deals:
    1) Map Making + Mysticism for Lit + Phil + 251g
    2) MM for Lit + Phil + 110g
    3) Myst + 3g for Lit

    I also noticed that we have a strike team building up in Theveste. :evil:

    Our palace prebuild finishes in 11 turns, with Republic in 15. These numbers will increase when our GA ends in a few turns from now. We therefore have time before we need to obtain Myst or MM.

    I say attack Pompeii. If we can't take it then at least we can drop Rome's demands in a peace treaty. :hammer:

    Notes:
    The sheep plains tile in Theveste needs to be irrigated after our golden age ends. It will only produce 2 shields in Despotism mine or no mine, but it can produce extra food if irrigated.

    CrpMapStat says Theveste now only requires a garrison of 1 to prevent a flip.

    A reminder that the next 50 turns run at 20 years/turn. The 10 turn stop dates are therefore 550BC, 350BC, 150BC, 50AD and 250AD.
     
  10. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    The internet wasn't cooperating with me, so I was unable to post my turnlog earlier.

    1000(0)-set research to 70%

    IBT-archers move to Theveste

    975(1)-found Hippo, see barb camp, start on temple
    move NuMerc up to help

    IBT-Roman archers retreat
    LMOZ1 temple->NuMerc

    950(2)-zzz

    IBT-barbs heading to Carthage?
    learn philosophy, start on code of laws
    Utica Great Library->library

    925(3)-zzz

    IBT-I'm not sure what the barbs are doing
    Carthage archer->barracks

    900(4)-Rome is willing to talk, they know mysticism, map making
    they want us to give something
    archer kills barb horse on mountain

    IBT-Theveste temple->barracks

    875(5)-NuMerc kills barb warrior

    IBT-LMOZ1 NuMerc->archer

    850(6)-worker sees a barb warrior

    IBT-Utica library->palace (14 turn prebuild)

    825(7)-NuMerc disperses Kaya encampment
    NuMerc kills Puyo barb warrior

    IBT-LMOZ1 archer->archer

    800(8)-zzz

    775(9)-Rome just learned code of laws
    NuMerc disperses Puyo encampment
    military advisor mentions no barbs

    IBT-Rome wants philosophy for peace, no way
    learn code of laws, research set to republic for now
    Carthage barracks->archer
    LMOZ1 archer->NuMerc
    Viking city of Nidaros finishes Pyramids

    750(10)-zzz

    Notes: Rome won't accept peace for a decent price (decent meaning he pays us)
    He still hasn't connected his iron
    Attack on Pompeii could start if desired
    Republic could be researched in 13 turns at 80% science (-6gpt), mysticism could be researched in 4 turns at 40% science (+17gpt), map making and mathematics also could be researched
    palace prebuild in Utica has 11 turns left

    Here is the save.

    MOTH - should be back to play next
    Bede - prepared to play if MOTH can't
    Zakharov
    fbouthil
    TimBentley - just played

    Here is a picture of the Roman front:


    That is true, although a grassland would have to be irrigated first.
     
  11. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    got it. Will try to play now.
     
  12. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    IE ate this last time, so again...

    750bc(0) set research to 80% - republic in 13 at -6GPT. Will see about getting Myst from Romans once GA runs out and Palace is closer.

    ibt - the Roman's are building the Oracle in Rome. I guess they aren't really concentrating on this war. Roman Galley approaching our border in the east.

    730bc(1) I send a Merc and Archer near Pompeii to see if this will loosen Ceaser's purse strings. No significant change.

    ibt - Roman Galley near Utica. Roman 3/3 archer attacks 4/4 in Mountains - we win and are 1/4.

    710bc(2) Theveste Rax>Merc. I adjust Utica to have the Cow and Carthage to have grass. I will do this for 2 turns incase the Romans land troops on Utica's food as we have no surplus. Merc in the N finds barb horsie.

    ibt - galley unloads an Archer between Carthage and Utica. Horsie attacks and looses against Merc. Barb galley near Utica.

    690bc(3) Carthage Archer>Archer, LMOZ1 Merc>Merc. 4/4 Archer v Archer wins without a scratch.

    ibt - Celts build Oracle. There are 5 Roman archers moving through the mountains.

    670bc(4) Cow given back to Carthage.

    650bc(5) zzz

    630bc(6) Rome Archer>Archer, LMOZ1 Merc>Merc. Merc in N finds barb camp.

    ibt - there are 7 Roman Archers in the mountains now. our Golden Age is over.

    610bc(7) Rome switches to Worker. My roaming Archer/Merc are now on the Roman Iron. I attack 1 of 2 archers in a hill and win but is red lined. Merc kills barb camp. Rome still wants to much for peace (and I scared 2 workers into Rome).

    590bc(8) Rome worker>worker, Theveste Merc>Archer

    ibt - 4 Roman Archers cross the river to our territory. I have some Archers waiting.

    570bc(9) Hippo temple>rax, 3/3 arch vs 3/3 arch wins and is 2/3. 4/4 arch vs 3/3 wins and is 2/4. 4/4 arch vs 3/3 arch wins and is 3/4. 4/4 Merc vs 3/3 arch wins and is 3/4. Rome will now give us peace straight up. Pillage Rome Wheat with Archer/Merc.

    ibt - 3/3 Roman Archer attacks 3/4 Merc across the river and wins and is 1/3 :(

    550bc(10) Carthage Worker>Archer LMOZ1 Merc>Merc 4/4 Merc vs 1/3 archer wins and is 4/4.

    Firaxis 217, Jason 277

    Situation:
    Palace in 2.
    LMOZ1 is nearly at size 7 in 4. There are workers nearby to pump it some right away (with enough food for size 10).
    at 80% science Republic in 5 at -12 GPT.
    at 40% science Rebublic in 9 at +7 GPT -> where Rome will trade Peace and MM for Lit, 7GPT, 7G. I've saved at this setting.
    The Archer/Merc are currently on the Roman Iron and have watched a few archers pass by.

    Rotation:
    Bede - up
    Zakharov - on deck
    fbouthil
    TimBentley
    MOTH - just played

    The save can be foundhere

    Sorry, no pictures. Its time for bed.
     
  13. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    Got it.

    Dispatches later.
     
  14. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    @MOTH: Great job against Rome! :goodjob: Our military strength against Rome is now about the same (according to MilAdv). I must admit I was afraid when I read about 6 roman archers crossing the mountains.

    We have been beaten to the Oracle. The only option for a wonder is TGLight by trading MM from Rome. I really do not like making peace with Rome when we are starting to gain on them. :cry: I do not see any other options as the palace prebuild finishes in 2t. Any better idea, anyone?

    If we are getting TGLight in 2t and making peace, then I guess it is time to build some galley to profit from the fact that they can end in sea tiles and find other civs. In normal game, it is usually enough to get to another continent without risks, but it is no garranty in GOTM. I would like to start building a few libs, but I am not sure we can afford it yet.

    BTW, with 5 cities, we should get 2t anarchy to get to republic.

    One last thing, the only thing useful toward the 20K goal that Utica can build is a courthouse as there are no other wonders accessible after TGLight, until we get const or Mon. I am not sure when we should start another palace prebuild.
     
  15. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    When I first read this I thought you had captured Rome and the iron. After checking the save I assume you meant to type Carthage and not Rome. ;)

    Rax? :confused:

    It's a shame the Oracle has gone. I think this proves the unmet civs are advanced compared to us. I think we will have to make peace with Rome and get Map Making and the Lighthouse. We cannot afford to waste that Palace prebuild.

    edit: The research rate should be increased to 70% for Republic in 5. Although we won't be able to switch until after the Lighthouse is built, we can get a 4 turn head start on getting mathematics. We need to catch up in the tech race.
     
  16. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    Sorry about that. It was a bit late and for some reason I kept doing that. I caught myself a few times too.

    Rax = Barracks I think I've seen this used as a shorthand.

    The fact that Oracle is gone was a little disappointing for me too. I was hoping that Rome would waste several turns producing before they lost it to us.

    I think we are going to have to go the peace route with Rome for MM. GLH is the only thing we can get really. At least we can then have a chance of crossing the seas and catching up in the tech race. It will also keep the AI from meeting Rome for a long time, so we can always do a peace deal with Rome and then break it again soon. We just need to make sure that Rome never gets to meet the rest of the world :devil2: We keep them for a leader farm for now and kill them when someone else gets one of the navigation techs.
     
  17. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    0-550
    Not much to do except check the state of the world. RomanExFor is a little light to do anything much about Rome and Roamin' Red troops are starting to pile up around LMOK1.

    1-530
    WIth the palace due in 1 it is time to make peace with the Romans. I really don't like giving him all that money for both techs, and since we don't need Mysticism for an immediate cultural building and can get it from the other continent when the galley gets there.....make peace with the Romans. He gets Vergil (Literature) and 100g, we get Mapmaking and a really big lightbulb in Utica. Science goes to seventy percent and lux to 30. Republic in 4 at -12. Coastal cities start galleys.

    Romans boot us out of their territory and send their archers across ours.



    And Utica finishes the lighthouse and starts...the palace

    2-510
    Hunting barbarians in the north and blockading Roman archers at Carthage.

    A strange galley shows upon our shore carrying knowledge of Mysticism and the borders of Hippo expand and we get spices.

    3-490
    The strange galley belongs to India who have money but no third level knowledge other than Map Making so we sell them the BaghavadGita (Literature) for 127g.

    4-470
    Not much other than tending to business and herding Romans. Dispersed a barb camp.

    Learn Republic but will wait for galleys to finish before the revolution

    5-450
    First galley hits the water and sails due west from Theveste and discovers a border within sight, not India.

    As we are about to revolt and Rome doesn't know Republic and it would be nice if we are in anarchy at the same time (Rome won't be building any legions, though since Julius has not connected his iron mines yet, that is not a problem) sell him Republicanism for 625g.

    6-430
    Rome takes the bait and falls into anarchy but he has three troops heading toward Theveste plus a few odd ones in the mountains south of LMOK1. I could give them the boot, hope they declare and in the ensuing melee in the mountains finish off their offensive troops, then destroy Pompeii and march on Rome..

    7-410
    We meet Persia who knows little and has no money. India learns Mathematics which we buy for Philosophy on our way to Construction.

    The Romans did not co-operate and moved out the territory so the descent into anarchy begins after opening embassies with Persia and India. Neither is very advanced in terms of poopulation or development. So the intelligent life forms have to be elsewhere.





    We draw two turns, however Utica will starve... or riot, and of the two I prefer starve as there are workers handy to build the population back up.

    8-390
    Mitigating the damge done by anarchy, though not much mitigation can be done.

    9-370
    Sailing the two sides of the other continent.

    10-350
    Sailing and watching the Romans who have finally hooked up their iron. There is a Roman setler pair heading towards the mountains south of LMOK1 and various Roman troops zigzagging around.

    Hippo is building another galley for contact making to the east and Carthage is building a catapault in anticipation of the next Roman war.

    Research path could switch to the Polytheism/Monarchy track for the Hanging Gardens in a tmely fashion. Or we could gamble on getting to Monarchy through Perisa/India/Rome/Celts and capture the HG that way.

    Now that we have Republic our next objective is the Middle Ages. We will have Construction and a Colusseum in Utica in 6 turns so I would go straight from there to Currency, hoping we can pick up Polytheism on the way by and maybe Monarchy on the way by again.


    Rotation:
    Zakharov - up
    fbouthil - on deck
    TimBentley
    MOTH
    Bede

    The Save
     
  18. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    Looks good. Differential naval movement (doubling movement for ships and having a movement cost of 1, 2, and 3 for ocean, sea, and coast, respectively) is on, right?

    It looks like India and Persia are able to reach us now, so no ruining our reputation and trying to cover it up.
     
  19. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    I missed that the differential movement was on and was hoping that the GLH would keep us isolated. It looks like we are in for 11 more turns of peace unless the Romans declare on us again.

    Regarding War Weariness: Will we get reverse war weariness whenever we go to war with Rome since they declared on us first back at the last war? If so then that will help us if we have to keep going in and out of war.

    On my old subject of the Forbidden Palace (since the forums want to combine my posts):
    I ran a test game to see about getting the forbidden palace. We can sucessfully build it and keep with the 5CC count at the end of the various turns. In my test game I actually ended up with both the Palace and Forbidden Palace in my 20K city (I jumped the palace accidentally 3 turns before the FP was finished). If we want to do this we will need to build enough settlers to found the cities and we will discard them after. Its only 2 culture per turn, but maybe for after we thinned out Rome and don't need quite so large of a military.
     
  20. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2004
    Messages:
    853
    Location:
    England
    Ok, I got it.

    I will see if I can meet some more civs before committing to a tech path. The Hanging Gardens would be sweet. 4 culture plus a happiness boost. :D

    I can play now but I don't know if I can get the turn log up before tomorrow morning. I'll try my best. :)
     

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