SGOTM4 - Team Bede

[Zakharov]

I think this is my shortest turnlog yet!

950(0)- Granary in Leptis Minor sold for 7g and a saving of 1gpt.
Science up to 60%, astronomy in 5. I want banking asap.

IBT- 'We love the general' in all cities.
Leptis Minor builds catapult > musket.

960(1)- Not much. I'm waiting for some Roman troops.

IBT- Celts and Babylon sign peace treaty.
2 Roman archers appear.

970(2)- Bombard an archer to 1hp, attack with elite archer - no leader.

IBT- LMOZ1 builds musket > muskets for the rest of my turns.
Hippo builds university > muskets for the rest of my turns.

980(3)- The second Roman archer bombed to 1hp, elite archer attacks - no leader.

IBT- Roman archer attacks vet NuMerc outside Cumae, 4/4 no promotion. I move these units to leave a hole in the defensive line. Leptis Minor is undefended and will draw their units towards it, so I can pick them off with elites instead of them attacking our vets.

Theveste builds musket > musket for the rest of my turns, Leptis Minor is the same.

990(4)- I disband a vet NuMerc in Leptis Minor to give a musket in 2 instead of 3.
Not much else.

IBT- Roman archer spotted.
Astronomy researched > Banking in 6 @ 70%, -77gpt.

1000(5)- Bomb archer, attack with elite archer - no leader.
Palace switched to Copernicus' in 9 turns.

IBT- Another Roman archer.

1010(6)- Bomb archer, attack with elite horseman - no leader.

IBT- Yet another archer.

1020(7)- Bomb archer, attack with elite archer - no leader.

IBT- Guess what?

1030(8)- Bomb archer, I'm having no luck with the archer, so I attack with an elite NuMerc - no leader.
I decide to upgrade the galley to a caravel for 10g.

India no longer have horses to trade?????

IBT- Hello Mr. Archer.

1040(9)- Bomb archer, attack with elite MDI - no leader.

IBT- Another one?

1050(10)- I fail to bomb the archer, so I will leave it up to fbouthil to destroy it.

Score: 563 (1st, Greece has 559), Jason: 745

Here is the save:
1050AD SAVE

Notes:

Copernicus' Observatory in 4 turns. Utica culture 5631 @ 71/turn. Estimated 20K in 1854.

Banking in 1. All cities apart from Utica are building muskets. Change these to banks when they become available.

I have been disbanding vet NuMercs in Leptis Minor towards muskets. This was to cut down military support whilst updating our units.

Our military currently stands at 63 units, with 15 free. We are spending 96gpt on support.

I had 7 elite wins without a leader. I even resorted to using different units to see if my luck would change.

As I mentioned, Leptis Minor is deliberately undefended. The AI will always move towards an open city instead of attacking units. Leave a gap in the line to allow them to move towards Leptis Minor, then pick them off with elites.

In the image below, you can see an archer I couldn't bomb. My group of 3 catapults (blue dot) were 4 tiles away, and the single catapult (green dot) missed. Instead of attacking at full health, I will let fbouthil bombard it next turn, as it is guaranteed to move one tile E if LM is undefended.

The red dot should always be occupied just in case they somehow get hold of horses.

Germany and Babylon will give us peace + chivalry for PP.

The deal with India (2 luxes for 6gpt) is still active even though 20 turns is up, but they are furious so we won't be able to renegotiate. I suggest leaving it as 6gpt is useful.

India no longer has horses to trade. At first I thought the AI was cheating and they had traded it with Rome even though we have a monopoly on Astronomy. Then I realised they were at war with Persia, so their supply has probably been cut. Even so, should we place 3 caravels on the sea squares to stop them trading with Rome in the future?

I felt unsatisfied with these turns as I didn't do much. I suppose there are stretches like this in a 5CC. I doubt we will see much action until other civs try settling on the edges of our island.

Roster:
fbouthil - up next
TimBentley - on deck
MOTH
Bede
Zakharov - just played

 

[Zakharov]

Here are the 3 sea squares that I suggest we should park a caravel on to prevent Rome from trading with India and Persia:

 

[fbouthil]

@MOTH: Nice story for the spoiler. I think it is long enough and does not need any more screenshots.

I will look at the game but it seems like my turns may be just as unevenful as those of Zakharov. It looks like a no brainer so I will play right now:

• Once Utica finishes Copernicus, start a palace prebuild for Shakespeare.
• Fish for leaders.
• Research toward free artistry fast enough to get it just before the palace prebuild is finished (I doubt I can get free artistry in my 10t).
• Build Banks. Maybe start a few caravels later for the sea blockade. No rush as no one has astronomy but us. No point in trading horse for now as we will be busy building banks for most of my 10t.

@Zakharov: Do not worry about not being able to get GL. With the HE, I think it is about 1/8 chances of getting GL so it is just a little bit of bad luck. We do not really need a GL right now. After Free Artistry, a GL would help as many techs enabling wonders are close.

 

[Bede]

Nice quiet turns.

On trading with India: go ahead and renegotiate. Even if they are furious selling luxuries at 6gpt is cheap at this stage and we can probably get more, if not from them from somebody else if we need it. Their attitude will not affect the price they are willing to pay. If they are shrinking in size due to the war with the Persians, the value may go down. But we could have other customers now that we have astronomy.

It may be time to load some boats with elites and go leader fishing elsewhere. Cats, muskets and MDI should do just fine for that purpose.

 

[Zakharov]

Once Utica finishes Copernicus, start a palace prebuild for Shakespeare.

Will you rush a bank before the Palace prebuild?

Maybe start a few caravels later for the sea blockade. No rush as no one has astronomy but us. No point in trading horse for now as we will be busy building banks for most of my 10t.

You only need two more caravels for the blockade. It will hold up until Navigation/Magnetism, so it should be good for a while. I agree with not needing horses. If we get Chivalry we can upgrade the 3 horses we have.

I would suggest disbanding a few NuMercs towards the banks. We could really use the saving on unit support. We have had our golden age, so NuMercs are not needed. The Romans will only have archers until they get nationalism, so we only need a few muskets for effective defence.

@Zakharov: Do not worry about not being able to get GL. With the HE, I think it is about 1/8 chances of getting GL so it is just a little bit of bad luck. We do not really need a GL right now. After Free Artistry, a GL would help as many techs enabling wonders are close.

Well I had 7 leaderless elite wins, so I am expecting you to get one when you take out that archer.

edit: I think the actual figure is 1/12. The base chance of a leader is 1/16 or 1/12 for militaristic civs. With the HE this increases to 1/12, or 1/8 for militaristic.

 

[fbouthil]

@Bede: Astronomy does not permit us to trade over ocean. We will need navigation or magnetism for that. Since Persia is getting bigger and India smaller, I will keep my deal with India, but may renegociate with Persia when the deals end.

@Zakharov: Ok, I will disband a few NuMercs. I will consider rushing a bank in Utica.

 

[MOTH]

I have posted in the spoiler thread. I can still make edits if needed.

 

[fbouthil]

Well, those 10t showed I am not very good with deals. I do not think it has too much impact on the result of the game.

1050AD (preturn) -

IBT

The archer goes next to Leptis Minor.
Research: Banking->Democracy at 70% in 8t, -89gpt (I calculate I have 12t after Copernicus to finish the palace prebuild)
4 oversea civs learn astronomy.​

1060AD (1)

I read Zakharov post about disbanding NuMercs to get banks faster. The only thing I have to short-rush the bank in Utica is a granary. Since I do not want to disband any musketman, I need to bring for 26sh in disband. I move 4 NuMercs toward Utica.
Bombard and kill the archer.
Change productions to banks (except Utica).
Move 3 NuMercs next to Leptis Minor.​

IBT -

1070AD (2)

Disband 3 NuMercs in Leptis Minor to get the bank 1t earlier.​

IBT

Scandinavia & Germany sign MA against us. Oups! I was toying with the idea of signing peace with Germany for contact with India but did not do it.
Germans start Copernicus.​

1080AD (3) -

IBT

Celt & Germany sign MA against us!
A roman archer appear.
Utica: Copernicus->Bank
Theveste borders expand.​

1090AD (4)

Bombard and kill the archer.
Utica: disband 2 NuMercs, rush a granary, switch to bank, Disband 2 NuMercs & 6 mace. Oups! I lack 2sh. I have to disband a musketman. Will bring one from Leptis Magna.
Before Germany & Babylon gets more civs against us, I sign peace with them.
Peace with Germany: PP for chivalry, 105g & 6gpt.
Peace with Babylon: contact with 3 civs for 6g.
Trade with Persia: contact with Germany for 25g + 1gpt.
Trade with Greece: contact with India & Rome for 26g + 4gpt.
Trade with Ottoman: contact with Vikings & India for 31g
We are now only at -50gpt.​

IBT

Leptis Minor: Bank->Musketmans
Utica: Bank->Palace​

1100AD (5) -

IBT

Another roman archer.​

1110AD (6)

Kill the archer.​

IBT

Leptis Magna: Bank->Musketmans​

1120AD (7) -

IBT

Research: Democracy->Free Artistry at 40% in 9t, +58gpt (just before end of palace prebuild)
Stay in republic government for now.
Theveste: Bank->Caravel​

1130AD (8) -

IBT

Hippo: Bank->Caravel
3 civs learn Chemistry​

1140AD (9)

Chemistry can be bought for 1000g or banking. Pass for now.​

IBT

Persia wants a MA against India: No
I remember I forgot to renegociate the ivory deal and look what Persia is willing to give for it: 2g! Oups! Another mistake! No Deal.
A Babylonian caravel appear off the E coast.
2 Roman archers appear.
Theveste: Caravel->Caravel​

1150AD (10)

Kill an archer, bring 2 catapults near the other.​

The Save

WW is starting to affect us. We love the general day has stopped in a few cities. We could make peace with Rome & Scandinavia and probably Celt next turn. I thought we should fish until we get a leader out of the romans, but Rome brought only a few archers, maybe we can let him rebuild his forces. They got invention at some point so they are building longbowmen.

Maybe we can build a force to land on another continent as Bede suggested.

We can trade democracy for chemistry. Maybe it would convince a few civ not to redeclare war against us.

We could accelerate research.

Roster:
TimBentley - up next
MOTH - on deck
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil - just played

 

[TimBentley]

Got it. I'll play tomorrow.

 

[fbouthil]

I think the research plan after free artistry should be ToG, so we will have to trade for chemistry. At the speed we are building wonders, I think we have a shot at Magellan afterward, but we should bother researching economics unless we have a leader to build Smith (or global research is very slow).

If we plan on making peace with Rome, we could take out the 3 cities that overlap Leptis Minor's border.

I just installed CivAssist and our new 20K victory date is 1840AD.

 

[Zakharov]

Some thoughts:

Hippo expands in 6 turns. This will bring the southernmost ivory colony within our borders. This will also reduce the amount of tundra not enclosed in our borders. We can place 6 units around the tundra coastline to prevent anyone from landing a settler there and stealing our ivory.

When we make peace with Rome, the only city I definitely want to take and abandon is Cumae. Leptis Minor's borders expand in 24 turns, so that spot will be covered. In the meantime, 2 units can block the coast from new settlers.

I'm not sure about destroying the other Roman cities. Removing them will increase our territory and therefore our score, but they won't be an effective leader source in the future. Of course, by then we will be able to use India or Persia for leader farming!

Research: Democracy->Free Artistry at 40% in 9t, +58gpt (just before end of palace prebuild)
Stay in republic government for now.

This raises an interesting question. Do we want to switch to a Democracy or remain a Republic? I have listed some pros and cons:

Pros: Worker speed is increased.
Slightly less corruption and waste.
Cheaper unit support.

Cons: Anarchy period.
More war weariness.
Commerce bonus remains unchanged.

If we agree a switch to Democracy is worthwhile, it is probably best to wait until all of the MA wonders have been built so the anarchy period does not disrupt our wonder building. If we get to a point where all 5 cities have nothing to build, we could consider a switch.

I think the research plan after free artistry should be ToG, so we will have to trade for chemistry. At the speed we are building wonders, I think we have a shot at Magellan afterward, but we should bother researching economics unless we have a leader to build Smith (or global research is very slow).

Trading Democracy to the other civs may slow down the tech pace for a while, as they go through anarchy periods. Germany and Babylon currently have banking, so are probably researching Democracy at the moment. We could trade it to them first, getting Chemistry and maybe some gpt in return. Getting gpt turn from the AI will also slow down their research. (Note: All of the AI civs are currently in Republic governments.)

Regarding the remaining MA wonders, I have done a comparison:
Shakespeare's Theatre: 400 shields, 8cpt, 1 tech needed.
Smith's Trading Company: 600 shields, 3cpt, 1 tech.
Magellan's Expedition: 400 shields, 3cpt, 1 tech.
Newton's University: 400 shields, 6cpt, 3 techs.

We are currently 12 turns from Shakespeare's Theatre. From these numbers, Newton's is definitely the priority, so we should direct research towards that. The other two come from optional techs, so the AI may ignore them. Magellan's should be built before Smith's as it is 200 shields less for the same culture. A leader may allow us to get both.

With military tradition, the military academy becomes available. This will be useful as a prebuild, as it is 400 shields compared to 300 for the Palace. It is also a small wonder, so it will be available until we build it.

 

[TimBentley]

I don't think the 1 to 5 (or maybe 2 to 6) turns of anarchy are worth the switch to democracy. According to CivAssist (although ainwood says the corruption tab doesn't work perfectly), the biggest difference in corruption is Leptis Minor changing from 19% to 15%. 21gpt would be saved for unit costs with current troops. The faster workers are not needed until steam power. If we get enough leaders to rush a couple of wonders, the switch might be worth it.

Speaking of wonders, it appears (assuming no leaders) that we can pick up Magellan's Voyage before getting industrialization. The AI may research navigation for us.

Anyways, I'll research straight for ToG, buying chemistry, and I'll probably increase research some.

 

[MOTH]

I've never been sure of this, but I don't think we get culture while in anarchy, so there would be a delay in our 20K date as well.

As far as research paths, the AI always seems to head down the path to Economics and start on Smith's before I do. The main problem is that this could allow them to cascade to future wonders. Lets just get a bunch of leaders and not worry about it

 

[fbouthil]

I've never been sure of this, but I don't think we get culture while in anarchy, so there would be a delay in our 20K date as well.

I think you are right about not getting culture while in anarchy. Therefore, I suggest we do not switch to democracy.

The only good reason I see we could switch to democracy is the increase efficiency of workers, but we do not need it until we can build railroads. Even then, I am not sure about the switch.

As for GL, do not worry, it is TimBentley's turn so we are garantied to get lots of them!

 

[TimBentley]

1150(0)-notice saltpeter on the 1-tile mountain island
MM Hippo to finish caravel in 1
Not sure why we need more muskets or caravels (factories are the next improvement), so switch LMOZ1 and Theveste to wealth
sell democracy to Germany for chemistry, 94gpt, 203g
raise science to 70%

IBT-Leptis Minor musket->wealth, MM it for more gold
Hippo caravel->wealth, MM it for more gold

1160(1)-bombard longbowman twice, elite kills it
Horseman notices a Babylonian settler, MDI, longbowman in the northeast

IBT-Babylon demands Music Theory, 100g, declares war
longbowman causes horseman to retreat
Babylon founds Lagash
People love me

1170(2)-horseman dies to MDI

1180(3)-zzz

IBT-Babylon destroys Vikings
German pike, settler, drops off by ivory
learn free artistry, start on physics

1190(4)-switch Utica to Shakespeare's Theater
bombard Roman longbowman three times, elite NuMerc kills it
get Cumae, 3g, 2 workers for peace with Rome
abandon Cumae
elite MDI kills MDI in Lagash
switch LMOZ1 to MDI
for some reason, India seems to be able to trade with Rome
raise science to 90%

1200(5)-elite MDI kills longbowman to raze Lagash
switch LMOZ1 to musket

IBT-Greece drops off musket and settler in northeast

1210(6)-zzz

IBT-LMOZ1 musket->wealth

1220(7)-can lower research to 80%

IBT-Greece founds Herakleia

1230(8)-zzz

IBT-learn physics, start on Theory of Gravity

1240(9)-vet MDI kills Babylon longbowman

IBT-India, Persia sign peace
Greece demands Music Theory, 100g, accepts refusal

1250(10)-zzz

Here is the save.

Notes: Shakespeare's Theater is due in 2 turns, Theory of Gravity is due in 5 turns
science could be set to 100% to get ToG in 4 turns, lux could be turned off regardless
Before Shakespeare's completes, free artistry should be sold to Germany. They are willing to pay all of their gold and gold per turn
You can destroy that pesky Greek city in 4 turns if you want
Musket builds could be started to disband for factories and coal plants
Consider gifting the scientific civs to the Industrial Age and getting their free technologies

I will be on fall break starting tomorrow until Tuesday, so I will not able to play (I might be able to comment). With the pace of this game, I'll have to be skipped at least once.

Roster:
MOTH - up
Bede - on deck
Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley - just played, skip 10/8-10/12

 

[fbouthil]

All right! There has been more action than I thought! I did not think Babylon was that suicidal (building a city just so we could raze it).

We still lack one caravel for the sea blockade (middle passage).

The Celts are willing to give 11g + 2gpt for peace.

I agree with researching toward IA until Newton is finished.

Gifting the scientific civ into IA seems a good idea, but selling them the tech would be better, of course. We should be able to buy one IA tech and then exchange it with the other free scientific IA tech. The only possible problem with it is that giving them ToG will enable them to start building a wonder that surely will be able to cascade to smith, magellan or universal suffrage.

Remember to send every worker and slaves near Utica at that point so it gets extra sh from railroads.

Does that means we do not want any war with Greece because they are scientific?

We surely do not want a war with Germany with the 100gpt they are paying us...

 

[Zakharov]

Wow, I did not expect our territory to be threatened just yet. At least we still have 1 ivory.

Considering this new danger to our shores, I think we should trade for horses and get some knights built. It will be much easier to defend the island with fast units.

We should research Metallurgy after ToG, as we can then upgrade our catapults to cannons.

The German city should be allowed to stay until our deal expires. If the Greeks want a fight however, then give them one.

The sea blockade is useless now we have peace with Rome. By the time we are at war with them again, they (or India/Persia) will be able to trade via the ocean. We may as well disband the caravels and save the support costs.

We need another unit NW of Leptis Minor to block the coastline.

The HG will double to 8cpt in 10 turns. With Shakespeare's at 8cpt, Utica will be producing 91cpt in 1300AD.

@TimBentley, I like that deal you got with the Germans. It will really help our science.

Note: From 1250 - 1750, each turn is now 5 years. Each set of ten turns therefore runs for 50 years now. This is for the next 100 turns.

 

[MOTH]

I got it and will play this afternoon or this evening. I don't want to gift in the Sci civs until we get closer to having some of the MA wonders. I'd like to see us get Magelan's and get to MilTrad for the other pre-build.

What about Rome? Should we give them a ROP so that they can get settlers through to our North? I'd rather see backwards rome with little resources have the extra coast on our continent than having some of the more advanced civs landing good units on our shores.

 

[Bede]

It may be time to get the overseas catfight started again.

Germany against Greece would work to our advantage as we want to control the tech pace. Gifting the scientific into the IA will put pressure on our pre-builds and get the cascade going again. As we seem to have the cash to keep the Bunsen burners flaring brightly at least through Universal Suffrage the tech slinghsot won't help us that much and buying any tech from the other guys for gpt rather than MA optionals will just accelerate the tech pace.

We definitely need horses for eventual upgrade to cavalry as I expect to see more than spearmen in defense of the interlopers. Having MT for the MilAcad is useful as a prebuild as well.

I would expect that Heidelberg is building a library so the last ivory in the north is at risk though losing the lux should have little effect.

 

[fbouthil]

We can sell demo to India for horses + 19gpt + some gold, which sounds like a good deal, especially since we are preventing them to trade the horse to Rome (Persia does not have astronomy to trade with Rome). We can probably get another 6gpt in the demo deal if we cancel the current deal with India. It would free a few lux that we could trade oversea soon.

I agree with starting an oversea war, especially if we can get Germany on our side. Since Germany has been at war with us in the past, I would not be too surprised if Babylon brought Germany against us if we do not bring Germany to our side first.

@Bede: You are probably correct when you say Heidelburg is building culture since it is getting cultural pressure from us.

I would not disband the caravel unless we are certain we will never want to raze a few Persian cities in hope of gaining GL.

We can MM Leptis Minor to give an extra science by laboring the lake instead of the cow.