SGOTM4 - Team Bede

[Zakharov]

I need units to disband in Utica to rush the factory and coal plant in 1t each. I could use the cannon and the knight already there, but I think it would be best if I brought 2 vet NuMercs from the stack near Neapolis.

Now we have rails, you can bring units to Utica on the same turn. Have a look at my post #245 for some suggested units to disband. I would leave the cannons and knights as they are our most up to date units. Disband the NuMercs, archers and MDIs first. I also think the army can go, as it is only NuMercs. The cannon/knight attack combo means the army is not being used.

 

[fbouthil]

I say wait until we have economics, by research or by trade and then make the decision. If the AI civs are not already in the IA, trade them into it and see what the free techs are. If medicine is one of the free ones, then trade for it and go for sanitation. If medicine is not available for trade, then maybe ignore sanitation.

If you read my timeline, you will see that at the current research rate, SMethod comes 7t too late, so we cannot even research medicine ourself, even less sanitation! After SMethod, I could agree to go for sanitation, but I will disagree with researching it before.

@Bede: Ok. No factory & keep building cannons.

@Zakharov: I am pretty sure I can get MTrad in the deals that put the scientific civs into IA.

 

[Zakharov]

I have one final thought about the question of which wonder to rush, USuff or Smith's. If another civ does start building Smith's with their Magellan's prebuild, you could investigate that city and see how far along they are with it. If you see that you can rush USuff, factory and a coal plant, then hand build Smith's before they do, then go for it. With full RR around Utica, it only needs about 12-13 turns to build Smith's.

I would much rather rush USuff if possible.

EDIT: I just realised that with a factory and a coal plant, Utica will be producing around 65 shields, so will build Smith's (600sh) in 9-10 turns. So, if the investigated city will take longer than about 15 turns to build Smith's then rush USuff. I think we have a good shot at this tactic as no AI cities can match Utica's production.

 

[MOTH]

To reinforce my point, here is a small prediction on the timeline (correct me if I make mistakes):

Production in Utica:
(3) Magellan
(4) USuff
(5) Factory
(6) Coal Plant
(16) Smith
(20) Last turn we can use the palace as prebuild for ToE
(22) Last turn we can use the MilAcad as prebuild for ToE
(26) ToE

Research:
(1) Industrialisation
(5) Economics
(12) Medicine
(22) Electricity
(29) Scientific Method (same research cost as Medicine according to editor)

If we do not want to lose any production on something else than culture in Utica, we have no choice but to trade or gift scientific civs into IA until we can trade Medicine with them. We certainly do not have time to make a detour by Sanitation (6t or 7t to research). Even so, we may have to slow down production in Utica for a turn or two.

Of course, if someone has a trick up his sleave to know in advance what the free tech of other civs will be, it would help. I always thought it was random, but I am not sure.

The only culture I see after ToE is MilAcad, IAgency, Hoover and a palace. All at 400sh/cpt. Can we build Hoover? Civilopedia says we only need a river to build it, but I think we need Mountains also, but I am not sure of that either.

A trick up my sleave? Maybe. I think we should build the Palace immediately after we build Smith's. The corruption/waste savings could cut a turn off of some wonders. It will also mean we don't need to slow down Utica (or at least not as much) before we build Toe. The +1 culture per turn might cut another turn or 2 off of our finish date.

We can build Hoover with just a river, no mountain needed.

 

[MOTH]

Mark me down for a skip. I've got an out of state funeral to attend on wed-thurs. I'll be back Friday.

I might be able to comment on wed afternoon before I drive up to vermont. I'm not sure when I'll be back on Thursday.

 

[fbouthil]

I will play after supper. Revised plan:
- Bring units to Utica to disband rush the factory & coal plant. I will disband as much units suggested by Zakharov as I can without lacking units for blockade: archer (elite*), 5 Mace (elite* + 4 vet), 3 NuMercs (vet), 1 army.
- Investigate the cities that used Magellan as prebuild for Smith (if there are any) to determine if Smith or USuff should be rushed.
- Once economics is known, trade the scientific civ into IA to trade for medicine. If I cannot trade for medicine, then we will have to build a palace before ToE.
- Once Magellan is finished, eliminate the romans as a last effort to get a GL.
- Try not to enter a per turn deal with Germany since we want control of the Ivory (I will bring troop over there, but I won't declare war).

I will check here before I start playing in case you have other comments.

 

[Zakharov]

This plan seems good. I know it's obvious but remember not to disband all those units on the factory, save at least one for the coal plant, otherwise the rush cost will be doubled.

We don't need to block every single tile. I don't mind if the AI builds cities SW and SE of Leptis Minor, or on the eastern gap N of Utica. We do need to make sure the gap NE of Leptis Minor is blocked (iron), along with the ivory area once Heidelburg is gone.

 

[MOTH]

I think we want to look at building the Palace before ToE anyway. Its cheap for 1cpt and won't affect the date that we get ToE by more than a couple of turns. The reduced waste should help for other wonder builds.

 

[TimBentley]

I have returned. Don't bother looking for any comments from me.

 

[Zakharov]

I have returned. Don't bother looking for any comments from me.

Just in time. You're up once fbouthil posts the save.

@MOTH I agree about the Palace. We will have the MilAcad as a prebuild soon, so the extra culture and decreased waste from the Palace will be very useful.

 

[fbouthil]

1400AD (preturn)

Wake a lot of units for disbanding in Utica. Also move 4 knights from the stack near Neapolis to fill the holes in the blockades.​

IBT

Research:Industrialisation -> Economics at 100% in 4t, -11gpt since anything less puts it in 5t.​

1405AD (1)

mmf in a few cities as I consider growth more important than production at this time.​

IBT

India learns economics. ​

1410AD (2)

Trade ToG to India for economics + 63gpt + 230g
Switch research to electricity in 10t at 100%.
Trade ToG to Ottomans for 17gpt + 18g + WM. They get SP as free tech.
Trade ToG to Germany for 325g + WM. They get medicine as free tech but want SP, economics, WM & 1890g for it.
Trade ToG to Persia for WM + 8g. They also get medicine as free tech and I get it against SP.
Leave Greece behind as they do not have anything interesting to give me at the moment.
To determine if I should almost give SP + Med to India so he cannot trade economics with other civs, I investigate Lahore for 140g. Magellan is due in 21t.
Trade SP + Med to India for 9gpt + MTrad + 1g
We are now at +74gpt and research still at 100%.
Finished improving around Utica. Production of 34sh after corruption.​

IBT

Utica: Magellan->USuff. Only India cascades to Smith even if Persia and Germany manage to get economics.​

1415AD (3)

Since Lahore was 21t from building Magellan, I rush USuff.
Attack Neapolis and ... [dance]

Abandon the city and send Hamilcar to Utica.
Upgrade some knights.​

IBT

A longbowman goes out of Brundisium.
Utica: USuff -> Smith​

1420AD (4)

Rush Smith.
Kill the longbowman​

IBT

Utica:Smith->Factory
Produce 2 ironclad heading for Utica.​

1425AD (5)

Disband 5 units (Mace & NuMerc) in Utica and rush the factory.​

IBT

Utica:Factory->Coal Plant, production up to 51 after corruption.​

1430AD (6)

Disband an archer (5sh), a NuMerc (7sh) and the NuMerc army (100sh), Utica can build the rest himself, no need to rush the coal plant.
Attack Brundisium and ...

Send Mago to Utica, but will keep it in reserve, probably for ToE.
Brundisium gets to live until the GL is used.​

IBT

Celt and Persia make peace.
A Celtic settler comes to take the place of destroyed Neapolis with an escort of 2 maces
Utica: Coal Plant -> Palace, production up to 68sh. groucho​

1435AD (7) -

IBT

Richborough founded.
Our silk deal expire.​

1440AD - 1450AD (8 - 10)

We lose our supply or horses and many deals giving us gpt with India and Ottoman expire.​

We are down to -117gpt and could build wealth in every city except Utica. We can also trade Industry to Ottoman & India for over 20gpt each and horses from India.

The palace will be finished in 2t. The MilAcad can be built after in 6t. We can then rush ToE, get to Electronics to build Hoover in around 12t. In that time, we should research espionage for intelligence agency. If we have time before Hoover is finished, then sanitation should be research before espionage.

We can make war with Germany and wipe Rome when the GL is used, in about 8t. We could make war with Germany earlier if we want to make sure our ivory does not get cut, but I would prefer having chances of getting GL even if it is remote.

We can trade wool in exchange of silk with Celt.

Our new 20K victory date is 1790AD.

Score: 710
Jason: 940

The Save

 

[fbouthil]

@MOTH I agree about the Palace. We will have the MilAcad as a prebuild soon, so the extra culture and decreased waste from the Palace will be very useful.

Sooner than you might think.

Roster:
TimBentley - up
MOTH - on deck
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil - just played and got very lucky with GL (2 GL in 4 attacks).

Idea: Should we sell or give techs at bargain prices to accelerate research so we have the chance of building modern wonders? We will run out of culture buildings to build in Utica in about 20t and I don't think we should keep any as wonder prebuild. IMHO, even 1cpt for the time of the IA is better than getting a 3cpt wonder 5t earlier in the MA.

 

[Bede]

Nicely done, fb.

To cement our position it may be time to foment another overseas conflict.

I quite agree that 1cpt for however long the game lasts is worth more more than 3cpt sometime later.

Keep the people smiling and the culture rolling in...

 

[MOTH]

Outstanding!

We will still have 400 shield pre-build in the form of an Army!

I'd say, yes lets get tech rolling full speed ahead with the help of all the Scientific (and even non-scientific) civs.

I should be skipped after Tim's turn as I'll be away for a funeral.

 

[TimBentley]

Got it. I will play tomorrow.

 

[Zakharov]

2 leaders = great turns

So the plan now is:

- research sci. method, then set research to atomic theory at 0%.
- rush ToE, get atomic theory and electronics for free, set research to sanitation.
- build Hoover, attack final Roman city with elites, (get another leader ).
- after sanitation, research (or trade for) nationalism and espionage.
- build hospitals and grow cities to size 20 for score and extra commerce.
- build MilAcad and Intelligence Agency in Utica. (Rush a hospital first?)
- research only required techs to get to the Modern Age as fast as possible.

Who said this game was difficult?

We are now 80 turns from victory, and this should decrease further with the next few wonders. If we can get to the modern age, we will only be able to shave a turn or two off the finish date, but that is better than nothing so go ahead with using the AI to help us. Just don't trade them electronics until we have built Hoover.

To cement our position it may be time to foment another overseas conflict.

Is this necessary? None of the AI civs are approaching domination, and a war will only slow down the tech pace.

 

[Bede]

@Zak,
You're right. I had my epic hat on when I wrote that.

 

[MOTH]

So the plan now is:

- research sci. method, then set research to atomic theory at 0%.
- rush ToE, get atomic theory and electronics for free, set research to sanitation.
- build Hoover, attack final Roman city with elites, (get another leader ).

I'm not sure what the timing is on sci method and the Palace build, but it may be possible to pre-build ToE within a few turns and then rush Hoover with the leader we have now. I'm at work so I can't look at the save and first thing after work I am driving out of state. Unless Civ Assist will show me anything...

 

[fbouthil]

Good point MOTH! Should we rush ToE or Hoover?

Research:
(1) Electricity
(7 or 8) S. Method

Production, rushing ToE:
(2) Palace -> 1cpt_____20c
(8) MAcad -> 1cpt_____14c
(9) ToE -> 3cpt________39c
(21) Hoover -> 2cpt_____2c
Total culture on turn 22: 75c

Procution, rushing Hoover:
(2) Palace -> 1cpt_______20c
(12) ToE -> 3cpt________30c
(13) Hoover -> 2cpt_____18c
(19) MAcad -> 1cpt______3c
Total culture on turn 22: 71c

Well, not a big difference, but rushing ToE gives 4 more culture. As a bonus, we are still in a position to use another GL immediately if we are lucky enough to get another one.

If we concentrate on the gold lauriel, then espionage would have to come before sanitation. At that point, we can gift the Greeks into IA in hope they get nationalism as free tech.

I would not hold on electronics if it helps us as no one can build Hoover as fast as Utica (unless they can get a GL).

Note: There is a pile of units to disband when the opportunity comes (probably hospitals) on a hill near the German ivory city. I did not know the army was 100sh when disbanded, otherwise I would have disbanded more units for the factory.

I probably built too much cav. At some point, I thought I should build some before the horse deal would finish.

We will be able to use factories as prebuild for the hospitals.

 

[MOTH]

Civ Assist is giving me wacky numbers. According to CivAssist: its 3 turns to Electricity and 16 more turns (estimate) to Scientific Method. It also lists Utica at 105 spt.

Its 2 turns until the Palace build according to the post above. We should be able to have ToE 2 turns after Scientific Method and if we use the leader for Hoover we get that 3 turns after Scientific Method.
Culture figures:

turn     leader on ToE            leader on Hoover 
0         get ToE  3 culture      -
1         6 culture                  -
2         9 culutre                  get ToE 3 Culture
3         12 culture                get Hoover 8 culture
4         15                           13
5         18                           18
6         21                           23
7         24                           28
8         get Hoover  29          33

So, if we use the leader on hoover we get 4 more culture in the long term plus we have 6 turns where we could build stuff (Hospital pre-build?) to get ready to get Battlefield Medicine.

MilAcad: costs 400 = 4 turns
Army pre-build: costs 400? = 4 turns
ToE: costs 600 = 6 turns
Hoover: costs 800 = 8 turns

Another thing, if we build 5 hospitals we can build battlefield medicine for 500 and 1 cpt. I think we should head to sanitation after Electronics and before Espionage.

Edit after fb's post: are my numbers off on how long production takes or is fb's. I was assuming that we would be able to build MilAcad before ToE.