SGOTM4 - Team Grayarea

@Matternich: would we need MA against other civs? I'm afraid if a civ becomes too strong and is a problem for us, later in the game, because the civs we can make MA with are weak somehow.

Just to remind everyone: we're at war with Germany, Persia, Babylon and Greece. Only Greece won't talk.
 
@ KA

I am really talking about this from a diplomatic victory stance as no nation will ever become too strong. That is strong enough to defeat or worry us either militarily or through a large tech lead.
No, the sole reason for military alliances is to keep in the good books of other civs when we happen to be at war. I wouldnt go seeking an MA in peace time. Personally I don't care if weak nations are wiped out by stronger nations except for the fact that it's one less possible UN vote lost. Weaker nations do tend to be easier to make polite and gracious because of missing tech which can be gifted.

If a strong nation attacks us now but especially as we approach the UN wonder there's a chance they may MA against us which will result in everyone being annoyed with us, ruining the early votes. If we MA against that strong nation they will be less likely to attack us again and everyone on our Military side will be more likely to be polite.
Its easier to gift one civ back up to polite than 3 or 4.

Probably not worth it for wars that will have peace soon but for fresh wars a 20 turn MA with all other peaceful nations is the right course for war in general.

The problem at the moment is we dont have enough civs who we are at peace with and enough tech/gold to pay for a MA. Worth bearing in mind if we are attacked again however later in the game.



.
 
1350ad (0)
Keltoi began Magellan's
Greeks landed near Rome
1355ad (1) Rome complited Smith's
Trade ottomans our ivory and wool for 31g+7gpt+maps
Trade vikings world map for 20g wm tm
trade Keltoi World map spicees ivory for maps 40g 17gpt
1360ad (2)
1365ad (3) Greeks landed more forces near Rome.
Battles near Rome.
1370ad (4) Greeks building Shakespeare's
1375ad (5) Ottomans, Babylonians,persians are building Shakespeare's.
1380ad (6) Utica complite Magellan's - heroic epic
Greeks,babilonians,persians,keltoi swich to Shakespear's.
1385ad (7) Phisics - Theory of gravity. (10turns +4gpt)
Trade phisics to Ottomans for horses,Free Artistry, Metalurgy,World map, 101g+25gpt.
Built shakespear's in Utica. (ToG in 9 turns +1gpt)
1390ad (8) Shakespear's in Utica - Heroic Epic
1395ad (9) Nobody building wonders!!!
Some upgrades.
1400AD (10) Greeks coming from west. I move forses there.
 
It's GREAT that we built both Magellan's and Shakespeer's!!!
Be careful to NOT finish HE in the same turn as we learn ToG: we could "extend" HE for 1 more turn.

Guys, the other civs are REALLY annoyed/furious now: I think that we can say "adios" to a UN victory. Almost all civs know Military Tradition.

Greece wants Theveste for plain Peace Treaty and Persia wants Rome!!! Germany wants Chemistry for peace: we're at war with them since my previous turns...

I'd make peace with Babylon asap, and peace with Persia, Greece and Germany when it's possible.

btw: start upgrading our units; we have some horses to upgrade and also our catapults to canons.
Soon we'll be fighting calvaries and we need some more knights.
Also, we should upgrade an hoplite to musket in each city, for a start.

If needed, we could run science at 50%, so we can make the upgrades and built some knights.

Oh, don't forget to build coastal fortress in our coastal cities: it'd be frustrating if we lose an improvement because of bombard.
 
0- 1400 AD
We are short of gold and our revenue is low. Greece lands troops.

1- 1405 AD
I disband every catapult in Hippo and switch it to Caravel. Where is our Navy?? Gpt increase from 1pt to 11pt

Babylon- peace and MA against Greece then 7gpt each for wool and spices.
MA Ottomans against Greece for Banking.
Keltoi Ma against Greece for Metallurgy.
Peace with Germany for old tech. & MA against Greece with more old tech.
(NB Periodically gift Germany with old tech.)

Whatever the outcome we are now at war with Greece for another 20 turns.

Persia will now give us peace for only 40 gold. I accept. Persia is the only nation not at war with Greece.

Move tech +1 TOG in 4 turns

2-1410 AD
Palace Expansion. Take out a Greek Knight with Hop.Theveste builds settler.

3- 1415 AD
2 Greeks (hop and swordsman) die. Is this all we have to face from the rest of the world? Greece will offer peace but it is important that we say no until every MA has expired and is not renewed.

4- 1420 AD
2 Greek mercenaries are dispatched.
Trade wool to Persians for Furs and 21 gpt. Pays back that 40 g for peace and then some. TOG next turn.

5- 1425 AD
Keltoi supply of silk + 2gpt for wool ends. I can renew for 6gpt but go for a straight swap.

This is the year. At last we are a tech ahead and can start to trade for big bucks.

Trade TOG with Persians for a MASSIVE 107 gold per turn.
TOG – Ottomans 54 gpt & Military trad
TOG- Babylonians Mil trad (it was this or 4ogpt- might have been better to go for the extra 40gpt now I think about it.)
Democracy to Germany 1 gpt + 9 g.

Now we can play the tech lead/bleed game.
Magnetism in 6 turns.
Where to build Newton’s ?? Utica I think as heroic epic has been a nice prebuild. Heroic epic can be next. Then Universal suffrage from a MA prebuild perhaps.,

6- 1430 AD
Not much.
7- 1435 AD
Hippo build caravels navy grwoing bigger. Onto caravel. Disband a couple of knights queue a couple of cavalry- slowly upgrade. Take tech slider -1 mag still in 4 turns.

8-1440 AD Not much
9-1445 AD Cav built more of same.
10- 1450 AD That’s it all done.


http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD1450_01.SAV

Conclusion/Suggestions

Push tech slider high.
Bleed AI of gpt by selling new tech to fund future research.
Keep an eye on when AI gpt deals end to sell on that turn where applicable.

Mag in 1 turn- Tech route could be Steam, Medicine, Elect, Scient theo.
Trade these for nationalism & Industrialization etc as AI learns them.
From there probably either no tech or corporation untill TOE is built then let that give us AtomT & Electronics for hoover dam. After that Radio- let AI go for the other tech and trade for it.

Keep popping out settlers/workers – sanitation is just around the corner.
Workers will soon be needed with steam too.
 
@Matternich: are you sure that we shouldn't go for Industrialization after Steam? We could also trade it for huge gpt if we learn it first and also begin factories in our cities.
Thing is that we'll know when to start our pre-build in Utica for US as is a Wonder that gives 4cp and we don't want to lose it: I'd say that we could also see if we could rush a factory in Utica and build the US sooner(we could change a palace/Wonder pre-built to factory) and then go for ToE also in Utica.

Medicine is a tech that the AI goes for, Sanitation also(for hospitals and more poweful cities for our science) and we could trade for them, as well as Nationalism.
 
@KA
Yes indust after steam is good. I tend not to go for it just to make sure that ToE is achieved quickly and definitely but you're probably right about the prebuild being easier to measure for USuff. As for gpt as long as we have new tech it doesn't matter too much but the 2 free tech from ToE tends to put us beyond what the AI can afford anyway. Often end up waiting for gpt deals to end before selling unique new tech.

As for medicine being an AI tech choice I have to say I have rarely found this to be the case, at least not in vanilla civ (on emperor and deity). Other civs seem to make a beeline for Communism and Espionage and/or Steam and Industrialisation (esp scientific civs like Persia Babylon etc who usually get Nationalism free) but with these new civs like Ottomans, Vikings, Keltoi I have no idea. Although of these PtW civs only Ottomans are capable of researching competitively at the moment in this game.
I think India likes to go for medicine now and again though.

.
 
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD1500_01.SAV

Pre-turn
Made upgrades.

IBT
Greece and Vilkings sign Peace Treaty.
Keltoi start Newton's.
We learn Magnetism >> start Steam Power in 10turns at 100%(+45gpt).

1455AD (1)
Persia, Babylon and Ottomans know Nationalism.

IBT
Greece and Keltoi sign Peace Treaty.

We had a deal with Keltoi: they gave 17gpt for Ivory + Spices. I'll not renew the deal since I want to trade our luxuries elsewhere if and when we can(I'll check).
Keltoi don't know Magnetism and they'll pay someone else for it since all the other civs know it.
So, I trade Keltoi Magnetism for WM +14g(all their gold) +23gpt.

Our Wool + Ivory deal with the Ottomans ends: I give Ottomans Wool + Spices for WM + 117g(almost all their gold) + 5gpt.

1460AD (2)
I trade with Babylon: I give 1 of our excess Ivories for WM + 35g(all their gold) + 10gpt.

We can lower our science to 90%, Steam Power in 9, 310g, + 91gpt.

1465AD (3)
Nothing.

1470AD (4)
Nothing.

1475AD (5)
Utica: Newton's University >> Heroic Epic.

1480AD (6)
We drop science to 80%, Steam in 5, + 113gpt.

IBT
Our horse deal ends: I offer Babylon WM +15g + 9gpt for horses.
It's better to pay them gpt, so they don't even "think" of making an MA against us in the future.

1485AD (7)
Looking at the diplo screen(as usual) every turn, I see that Persia learned Steam Power, and because they're the only ones that know it, they won't trade for anything.
We need 4 turns for Steam.

1490AD (8)
Lower science to 60%, Steam in 3, + 135gpt. No one else but Persia knows Steam.

1495AD (9)
Nothing.

1500AD (10)
Nothing.

Summary
1) Nobody has Steam except Persia. We learn Steam next turn and then go for Industrialization. Check out if anyone is paying good money for Steam, although I don't think that they can give much gpt, because Persia would have already sell it to the other civs.

2) Utica should begin Military Academy as a pre-built for USuff or as a pre-built to factory(the USuff is always made sooner with factory as it is very expensive), while we learn Industrialization.

3) Rome is set for one more worker as it grows and makes the worker at the same turn. Let's hope that, at least, we'll have coal(unless "someone" wants to make it hard for us ;) ).

4) Our deal with Keltoi ends in 4 turns(they give Silks, we give Wool): renew it. I also have Spices(in reserve) to trade for the Silks if they're too expensive.
We can also give Germany Spices for the same gpt as Keltoi give, if the later don't have money to pay it. Wait and see.

5) As for the tech path after Industrialization, go for ToE and "check" the path in the science screen.

6) Railroad the tiles that our city work, first, and then go and connect our cities(connect West and East), and then everything else.
 
1 KA - Just played
2 Gray - Playing next
3 Sir Ortin - Get ready
4 Alex top
5 Matternich

Got it, will play tomorrow night.
 
Pre-flight

Not much to do :)

IBT

We learn Steam and on to Indust

Rome Worker > Cavalry

1505AD (1)

Ended our MA with Babylon.
General Railroading!

IBT

Babylon wool for 7gpt renewed for 9gpt.
Ottoman MA cancelled.
Carthage Cavalry > Cavalry
Hippo Cannon > Worker

1510AD (2)

Sent Cavalry to replace Hoplite for upgrade.
Moved merc onto worker position to free up worker.
General Railroading!

IBT

Swapped maps with Ottomans.
Heroic epic is ours. Pre build Military Accadamy
Theveste Cavalry > Worker

1515AD (3)

General Railroading!

IBT

Theveste Worker > Cavalry

1520AD (4)

General Railroading!

IBT

Keltoi renews silks+7gpt for wool+spices
Persia renews Furs+19gpt for wool
Persia declares on the greeks.
Rome Cavalry > Worker
Hippo Cannon > Worker
Greece give peace+10gpt for peace.
Ottoman give world map+46gpt+19 for Steam
Greece gives Incense+5gpt+20 for silks
Greece gives 15gpt+5 for coal

1525AD (5)

General Railroading!

IBT

Carthage Cavalry > Worker
Rome Worker > Cavalry
Hippo Worker > Cannon
Persia gets medicine1

1530BC (6)

General Railroading!

IBT

Greece and babylon sign peace treaty
Babylon asks for map+73, tell him to take a hike and they declare!
Carthage Worker > Musketman
Vikings and Babylon sign mpp and embargo
Theveste Cavalry > Worker

1535AD (7)

General Railroading!

IBT

Theveste Worker > Frigate
Hippo Cannon > Worker

1540AD (8)

General Railroading!

IBT

Greece asks for world map sawp, I say yes.
We learn Indust move on to medicine
Carthage Musket > Worker
Rome Cavalry > Worker
Hippo Worker > Factory

1545AD (9)

General Railroading!

IBT



1550AD (10)

Greece gives nationalism+world map+39gpt+80 for indust
Persia gives horses+54gpt+190 for indust

Score 783

I did not cave to the babs because I thought that they would probably declare anyway due to the large amount of cash they demanded. Thoughts?

I forgot to change utica to factory BTW.
 
Good job Grayarea.

It's good that we have 2 coals!!!

Here's some points:

1) Change Utica to factory, RUSH it(it completes in 2 turns, but rush it anyway), and railroad Utica's terrain ASAP(the tiles that are worked).
Take the workers from Hippo and Carthage, so you railroad Utica's tiles faster.

2) Greece will pay WM + 1g + 36gpt for our Wool + Ivory, so take it: Greece is in war many turns and will pay so much gpt because it probably has serious unhappiness issues.

3) Check the science slider every turn to see when we'll be able to drop it a bit, but we'd learn Medicine in the same turns as before.

4) When Babylon agrees for Peace, take it.

5) Don't connect our cities through the mountains but through the grassland and the hills. We can railroad everything later.
And remember to railroad first the tiles our citizens work.

6) Change Carthage, Rome and Theveste to factory: wait first for Carthage and Rome to pruduce the workers they build.

7) 1 musketman goes for the unoccupied hill, 2 tiles west from where he is(there're 2 muskets on that tile). Take him there, and, PLEASE, DO NOT MOVE OUR OCCUPATION UNITS from where they are, so no other civ will try to land and settle there.

They can "see" the mountains and the nearby area, so we don't need to have other units in the mountains.

8) Upgrade our maskets fortified in cities to Riflemen(only 20g each with Leo's).

We can build a couple more cavalries/canons, but we almost have the military we want to protect ourselves, and now, with the rails, we don't need to produce many more units.
 
@Gray area

USuff is abbreviation of Universal Suffrage.

You should have given Bab's what they wanted. Not so much that it prevents Dip victory its just that they could pay us good cash for tech, and a map and 73 gold is pittance (especially now economies are growing) in comparison to what we will miss by being at war. I don't think they would have declared war on us anyway especially as they're are closer to weaker opponents for them to pick on. A good way to measure if a civ will declare after a demand is refused, is to check their military. Is it stronger? and by how much? Not to worry. If we can pick off a couple of their troops or possibly send a few caravels their way they might go for a quick peace. If not it could be a while before they agree to sign.

On the plus side we are now at peace with Greece who will help fund our research once they also become buyers of our new tech, as and when it is learnt.

.
 
Got the game, will play tonight.
 
In my diplomatic screen I don't have icons for Germany or the kelts?

I really only noticed this last night when I was selling indust around. How do I fix this?

BTW Rome and Theveste have rails on all worked tiles now, I am moving the workers up towards carthage.

That doubled up musket is on the way to the empty square in the mountain region. I moved the worker as the musket will be there next turn.
 
Grayarea: about the icons, I don't know if there's a way to fix this in Vanilla Civ.
I check it from the trade advisor(F2?) screen, where you can see how many luxuries you have, what you currently trade, etc... In the right, where you see the names of the other civs, if you click the name "Germany" you'll talk with them.

As for the musketman, I don't know where you send him, but we must occupy the hill-tile, so no one can try to land and settle there.
 
[/lurk]
@Grayarea:

The images that show up in the F4 Diplo screen are stored in the folder \Art\Advisors\, and the software tracks them down by reading a file called pediaicons.txt in the \Text\ folder.

The Keltoi image is special to GOTMs, so it's conceivable that this is missing if you haven't installed the GOTM mods correctly, but I suspect there would be more problems than this if so. If you want to check the image file is \Art\Advisors\BR_all.pcx.

The German image is part of the standard out-of-the-box installation, so it's unlikely that this is missing from your setup. It's at \Art\Advisers\BS_all.pcx if you want to check.

So the more likely problem is that your pediaicons.txt file is corrupt or incorrect. Here's a copy of the pediaicons.txt file I use and distribute with the Mac installers. It *should* be good for all GOTM and non-GOTM games in vanilla CivIII. Find your Civilization III\Text\ folder, rename pediaicons.txt to, say, pediaicons_old.txt and then put a copy of my version in its place.

HTH
 

Attachments

@ Gray area

At the bottom right of the screen (along the right hand edge of the information box) there is a vertical row of 3 or 4 small letters.
Click the letter D and all available civs can be contacted via the pop up.

The diplo screen was buggy on the last vanilla SGOTM. Its annoying mainly because there's no other way to tell what civs have trade embarogs or mil alliances.
 
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