SGOTM5 - Team Smackster

[dmanakho]

I have no idea how government and offers AIs give correlate to each other, so I can't comment and shall trust you guys.

I was just thinking about that scout we built... It looks like it's useless since we won't be able to pop from GHs any technologies...
I understand we are researching the last AA tech and you can't pop tech you are currently researching. It is not possible to get MA tech from GH, so we simple sending scout to get 25 gold from the GHs or eqWorker in best scenario.

 

[Wotan]

I have no idea how government and offers AIs give correlate to each other, so I can't comment and shall trust you guys.

AFAIK, same government gives better deals than different does. So I am afraid we might get a worse deal if we go to anarchy before peace with India.

I was just thinking about that scout we built... It looks like it's useless since we won't be able to pop from GHs any technologies...
I understand we are researching the last AA tech and you can't pop tech you are currently researching. It is not possible to get MA tech from GH, so we simple sending scout to get 25 gold from the GHs or eqWorker in best scenario.

Republic! The only tech left and one of the reasons I started on Currency. To be able to pop a government tech.

EDIT: Still asleep, Smackster?

 

[dmanakho]

AFAIK, same government gives better deals than different does. So I am afraid we might get a worse deal if we go to anarchy before peace with India.

Never heard about it, is there an article somewhere???

Republic! The onvly tech left and one of the reasons I started on Currency. To be able to pop a government tech.

Right, republic. Forgot about it. We may never use it, but it is good for trading.

EDIT: Still asleep, Smackster?

Hey, this is Sunday and this is america we are talking about here...
America population is split in two halves. Those who wake up early on sundays and head to churches and those who are asleep until noon because of drinking too much saturday night. In either case we won't see Smackster for another 2+ hours.

EDIT: Ok... Smackster is here... Here is just like me, the rare breed who's checking civfanatics forums early on sundays

 

[smackster]

No such luck, there are kids in the house here so I'm up early but not on-line. When I'm at my house, its just me so I'm on-line and in bed if its early

I'm afraid I did the first move last night, but we got four turn anarchy. Certainly the AI attitude is different based on government, but it made no difference in this case as we got those four cities. The scout popped the hut and got a map.

So we'll be in Monarchy soon. But I stopped as I realised I needed to start moving the horses to get to Karachi so needed to make that decision first.

I say go for the compromise and jump to Calcutta. Also there is a lot of unhappiness do to India unit popping, so getting that luxury hooked to the cities will really help, and it will take ages to get a road to Karachi, so another reason for that.

 

[smackster]

I'll see if I can sneak in a few turns now, and post what I get to, will finish by the end of the day.

 

[Wotan]

I say go for the compromise and jump to Calcutta.

Calcutta and Delhi are ranked equally if I understand palace jump (according to McW's article) so as long as there are more units in Calcutta than anywhere else we should be OK. My very first palace jump!!!

 

[smackster]

150BC

Japan Monarchy for Construction and 175 gold
Revolt and we get 4 turns, which is ok
France 100 gold for Construction
America 60 gold for Monarchy (don't want to help them into MA, will be attacking soon, they may be in anarchy)
Egypt 2 workers 38 gold for Construction
Scandy 4 GPT and 46 gold for Construction
England 34 gold for Construction

Now we get peace with India, nearly forgot that . 4 Cities and 37 gold. Wow

T1 130BC
Barb uprisings as the AI get Currency. There are two huts near Moscow.
Scout pops a hut and we get a map we already had.

We swap Monarchy for Currency with France, and we enter the MA. We get Mono. No other Scientific civs in this game, so no point giving anything away. We start on Feudalism.

We get 96 gold from Japan for Currency, 4 others already have it so its worth trading for good cash. None of the others have more than 12 gold, so no more trading.

Can't do phoney wars, as we are in anarchy and can't get embassies

T2 110BC
Delhi kept rioting so that it does not shrink
Scout back on galley who is going back west

T3 90BC
Horse kills a barb horse. Galley comes back round our island to the east, and sees some of the barbs that are on their way to Moscow

IBT

Arabia come threatening wanting Construction, can you beleive it. My plan had been to declare on France and get Arabia to join for techs. As our power is not great I don't want to have to pay hundreds of gold for an alliance. So I reluctantly give it up.

Galley with scout gets sunk by barb galley

T4 70BC
After I just started a war with France, and got Arabia to join for Currency and 120 gold

We become a Monarchy and I get no chance to look at the amount of beakers we are creating.

I got a BSOD crash, and now I have to go out, so you'll see the rest later.

To be sure about the jump I'm sending a few more troops over there. I know there is a tool out there, so I'll hunt that down too.

With Collossus Moscow is producing a lot of commerce, so I want to have a close look at that before I move it. Of course the barbs are-a-comin, so we might have to abandon it to save our gold.

 

[dmanakho]

All right.. we are monarchy and about to jump palace...
We won't be able to save Moscow from beeing sucked by barbarians and that i believe will happen soon.
I doubt we will generate as much commerce and beakers with 8 indian cities that Moscow did alone, but that will change soon...

Lets wait for the rest of the turns and I am sure Tomas is eager to jump into the game.

EDIT: This post is an example of the thread spam... while haven't said anything usefull but moved us one step forward to the Spam Laurel. I can't beat Smackster though. Even i was named the team's blabber mouth, somehow Smackster always beats me with the number of posts in the thread... . Well, after all he is the captain and he is unconditionally better player than I.

 

[Wotan]

Will we be able to save the workers waiting at "Dunkirk" or are there Barbs closing in? Hope the Galleys will have time for one more passage...

 

[smackster]

T4 70BC cont.

Iro is next to France and will join for Currency, so they are in against France.

T5 50BC

Just preparing for the jump to Calcutta

T6 30BC

T7 10BC
America come up with Republic

T8 10AD
At last the furs are hooked, up. The only reason to jump right now is, well ok there are a few reasons, No.1 is get the FP rolling, No.2 is THE BARBS ARE COMING

Jump is made, don't even do the maths. It obvious. Calcutta is our Capital. The commerce goes way down, but we need the FP. 25 turns now.

T9 30AD
Feud in 21 turns, commerce now close to pre jump levels. 2 workers bought from China for Monarchy. FP in 21.

IBT
America come threatening, for Mono, but we can't give them that, no way. War.

T10 50AD
Spain will join for Monarchy, Spain is America's neighbour. They are now at war

Our horses move to America's iron, cutting that is first objective. This may be a tough set of turns.

 

[smackster]

Technology
Don't trade the AI any MA techs until they have one that we don't have.

Wars
This American war is complex, as we don't quite have the troops we need in place. Cut their iron, and then take Boston/New York, as they are easier to take. Don't lose any cities, but don't be over defensive, hee hee, that is easy to say.

Score
Firaxis 136, we are 3rd from last. Look at the SG score graph, we have made a major jump, although with the palace jump our score will suffer.

Skips
As MjM has been absent since last played, and not returned my PM, now on auto skip. He can still play, but not without talking to us first.

 

[smackster]

dman
Wotan
smackster (just played)
tomasjj (playing)
MjM (currently on auto-skip)
Tarkeel (on deck)

As this will be tomassjj's first turn with us I request, waiting for full comment from the team and submitting a pre-game goals post, so that we are all clear about what is the plan.

Most of the challenging decisions are made for the next 10 turns, apart from managing the American war.

1) Horseman should be pulled from Karchi to help near Seattle.

2) Madras horseman should take a look north west to see if anything is coming from Seattle

3) Road is needed to Lahore

4) Army should be made available if needed. This is something the team should agree to

 

[tomasjj]

Right on.

Dont worry about any over-eager moves here.
I will just hang out here and participate in the discusson on what to do next.

I can play tonight when I get home. I wont be able to look at the save before then, so I might need some time first. I guess that will be ok as you guys in the new world are still fast asleep for some more hours.


Curious to see what kind of army the americans have...

jj

 

[Wotan]

Good turns, Smackster. And nice to be at war with America. One very minor MMing issue; turn the Tax Collector in Lahore into a Scientist and we shave a turn off Feudalism.

Priorities:

1. New York
2. Atlanta

Probably 2 american spear in each of these so 4-5 horsemen should be enough. Turn the 3 Iron cutters south together with the straggling Horseman and the Lahore Horseman should do it. Using the hill east of New York as a gathering point for the attack will make them able to react to any American counteroffensive from Atlanta. Move across river and attack from NE to avoid river defensive bonus. (overkill to say that, right? )

3. Seattle

When the 3 remaining units retreating from the ruins of Moscow make it across to our new lands, substitute the two 1MP units for the two Horsemen in Delhi and send 3 Horsemen together with the Horseman in Madras to take Seattle. Then move the HMs towards Boston.

4. Washington

Probably not during your turns jj but next on the list. As long as America focus on GWs we have little to fear. 3 GWs built now in Washington, New York and Philadelphia.

I would rather have us leave Chicago as a battlefield for Spain/America until we have cleared the remainder of America. So Boston, Miami, Philadelphia, Houston and Frisco first.

At this point Buffalo should have outgrown St.Louis and be the new American Capital. Sue for peace and grab St.Louis in the deal.

I all but finished India, now jj it is your turn to finish off America...

EDIT: Army: I would prefer to wait for Chivalry and Knights before we "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war".

 

[dmanakho]

Ok, I’ve loaded the save and here are my suggestions:
Move units from galley to the city in adjusting tile before your 1st turn, that way galley will be ready to go back to pick up 3 units we've left on the main island.
Increase lux. slider to 20% and get horses out of Delhi to help fighting America, once you transport warrior and archer from our original island use those as MPs in Delhi and bring slider back to 0%
Mil. Advisor says we are weak comparing to Americans.
I’d rather postpone taking American cities until we have barracks build and start pumping horses to supply frontlines with backups.

I suggest we MUST CUT AMERICAN IRON. And once you cut it, it is easy to keep it disconnected - all you need to do is to show up with a horse or two 2 tiles away from the iron once every few turns, AI workers will stop road the iron and hide in city, just make sure your horses are not in danger when doing that trick. Once iron disconnected and they can't produce swords America will start producing horses instead, but there is no easy way to disconnect their horses.

Don't wait for American archers and swords to attack, attack first with horses, you will do more damage. Once barracks are built do not build defensive units, start pumping horses.

Improve land around Bombay and Calcutta. Calcutta can be a powerhouse with all the sheep it has. Try to improve Calcutta's land so it produces 15gpt to build horses every 2 turns. (won't happen during JJ's turn but we should work towards it)
Make sure Delhi never riots (or any other city for that matter), we can not afford wasting time on FP turns

At this time this war should last until we get a deal similar with what we have with India. We must not destroy America completely, but rather keep them around weak and use them to fill spaces with cities we can take over later.

 

[Wotan]

Increase lux. slider to 20% and get horses out of Delhi to help fighting America, once you transport warrior and archer from our original island use those as MPs in Delhi and bring slider back to 0%.

Not sure about that. It depends on how many beakers we lose, getting to Knights ASAP is another priority. See my plans in my previous post, The Delhi HMs can wait for the units from Moscow before moving into action.

Mil. Advisor says we are weak comparing to Americans.
I’d rather postpone taking American cities until we have barracks build and start pumping horses to supply frontlines with backups..

No reason to hesitate now. We are playing a "Regent" game. America will not have more than two units in any city except Washington and as long as W. is <7 in size it will probably have 4 units. If there are more units they are there because they have just been built but 3 units should be an exception. 4-5 Horsemen in place vs. all cities but W. = ATTACK!!! Every turn America owns a city it will produce gold, pop and shields we need to destroy their economy too. There were 2 units in all Indian cities I took but Delhi and only 3 there... America will not have more. We need to be aggressive if we are to win this game!

I suggest we MUST CUT AMERICAN IRON. And once you cut it, it is easy to keep it disconnected - all you need to do is to show up with a horse or two 2 tiles away from the iron once every few turns, AI workers will stop road the iron and hide in city, just make sure your horses are not in danger when doing that trick. Once iron disconnected and they can't produce swords America will start producing horses instead, but there is no easy way to disconnect their horses..

Only if America send Workers to the Iron no need to show ourselves unless that happens. RE. AI Horsemen, in my experience AI tend to build Archers before HMs. I have no idea why but I seldom meet AI HMs, unless the tribe has a UU that is a HM derivate.

Don't wait for American archers and swords to attack, attack first with horses, you will do more damage.

Yes, but make sure you chose the battle ground! Wait until they are in open terrain if possible. Calcutta have a perfect defensive position in this regard, no hills, swamps or other terrain w. defensive bonuses next to it!

EDIT: America has 11 cities = probably 23-24 garrison warriors/spearmen. We have 14 units add americas "freelancing" units (Archers and a few Swordsmen) and they have more than 2-1 ratio. BUT, the majority will only come into action when we decide it since they are city garrisons. All but 2 of our units are HMs they are up against a similar number of american units, but a few of those americans are probably fighting the spaniards. SO, all in all, ATTACK!

 

[tomasjj]

Yes, but make sure you chose the battle ground! Wait until they are in open terrain if possible. Calcutta have a perfect defensive position in this regard, no hills, swamps or other terrain w. defensive bonuses next to it!

I hear you. D-man and you argue attack, which is logical here.

That however makes it more difficult to choose battleground, unless you are talking about the american counterattack (being a regent game I cant see that happening in a large scale).

Aren't we going for New York and Atlanta/Boston? Then we won't be fighting a lot outside of Calcutta?

Increase lux. slider to 20% and get horses out of Delhi to help fighting America, once you transport warrior and archer from our original island use those as MPs in Delhi and bring slider back to 0%.

I will look at this in regard to Wotans thoughts in relation to science rate.


Say, when we get the yank cities are we building horsemen or what?

jj

 

[Wotan]

That however makes it more difficult to choose battleground, unless you are talking about the american counterattack (being a regent game I cant see that happening in a large scale).

Aren't we going for New York and Atlanta/Boston? Then we won't be fighting a lot outside of Calcutta?

More of an observation, I agree the fighting will be minimum on our turf. Just a discussion before your first turns on the team... I am sure you are well aquainted with Civ but it is better to be safe than sorry. Your comments signal it loud and clear! You are no rookie, I am sorry if I came across as patronizing, not my intention as I am sure you understand.

Say, when we get the yank cities are we building horsemen or what?

Would like to have rax before building HM. No reason to build regulars.

 

[tomasjj]

More of an observation, I agree the fighting will be minimum on our turf. Just a discussion before your first turns on the team... I am sure you are well aquainted with Civ but it is better to be safe than sorry. Your comments signal it loud and clear! You are no rookie, I am sorry if I came across as patronizing, not my intention as I am sure you understand

Dont worry, mate.

I would rather have you guys continue with the details. Its still useful for me, even though I have played some civ.
Always small details there to consider

I guess we should have more time for discussion, with smackster taking part, before I play later on tonight.

Also, I want to look carefully at the save first.


JJ

 

[smackster]

I think we are all agreed on the way to proceed, 1) cut the iron, 2) take New York.

I can't see the full map right now, but I'm sure Wotan has the right mix of troops movement suggestions. Note these are all just suggestions, obviously you have to play it as you see it, based on what America does.

Note that I did get an alliance with Spain, so peace with America is not so easy. It actually occured to me that I might have been hasty with the Spanish deal, but its what I would have done in a solo game, and I felt that we needed that with the impromptu American war. I felt it is an absolute priority to slow the AI so don't give them any MA techs.

Right now alliances are expensive as we are weak. If we make peace with America I think the price of future alliances will go up. However, it might be something that does not matter. Once we are strong enough, we will have the cash to get those allianes, and once we have Knights, we probably don't need any alliances.