SGOTM7 - Team jeffelammar

[Whomp]

I'm curious are there any special strategies with pillaging armies? I would assume resources, cutting off the core cities and bonus resources are priorities. Any thoughts on how they should move? IE pillage, move, pillage, move etc

O/T Congrats Bed Head! Getting into one of the best engineering schools is a mighty accomplishment.

 

[jeffelammar]

I'm curious are there any special strategies with pillaging armies? I would assume resources, cutting off the core cities and bonus resources are priorities. Any thoughts on how they should move? IE pillage, move, pillage, move etc

IMO - The most important thing to remember about C3C armies.
1. Pillaging doesn't cost movement.

So the most efficient pillaging strategy (in most cases) is
1. pillage the square you are on.
2. move to a square that takes 1 move to get to.
3. pillage that square.
4. repeat 2 and 3 until you have 1 move left.
5. move to a square that takes more than 2 move (added bonus of better defense)

Repeat on the next turn.
With a Knight army this could result (if the terrain cooperates) in 3 pillaged squares per turn.
Even a Pike or Musket army can do this nail 2 squares each turn. Given the Ai's weakness at prioritizing workers, this can be quite powerful.

 

[CKS]

I'm not sure if you really got my point ... But, we need to get pillaging armies on the other islands in parallel.

Nope, I hadn't understood at all. This is a terrific idea that never even entered my head.

We do know for sure that the Arabs and the Persians are on the same land mass. We can see three tiles of land border between Damascus and Pasargadae. I don't think anybody else shares a land connection, based on who knew what techs when, but we can't see for sure.

My only addenda to Jeff's pillaging strategy are, make sure to pillage resources ASAP and make sure to cut off cities completely from each other.

Can a single knight army pillage freely, or do we need to send over others to add to the army to keep it safe?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Strategic resources don't matter that much as long as we don't invade actively. Not even Luxuries; they'll have lots of MP anyway.
But food and commerce in their core must be minimized - they need to go bankrupt .

 

[jeffelammar]

Can a single knight army pillage freely, or do we need to send over others to add to the army to keep it safe?

No a single knight army will get demolished.

In order to pull this off, we will need to land several knights with a stack of pikes (muskets when we have them) to cover.

All the stack needs to do is survive the first round of attacks while still having 2 extra full health knights at the end of the counter attack.

Those two knights then join the army, raising it to the point where the AI will not mess with it. We then evacuate all units that survived the first round and the Army is off to pillage.

There actually is nothing special about AIs attacking Armies. The whole thing is based on the fact that the AI won't attack unless it has a certain % chance to win. Once the HPs on a unit (or army) get high enough, the % goes low enough that the army is ignored.

 

[Whomp]

Jeff I think what CKS meant is once that single army is filled can it go out on its own. Which you've answered.

Does it matter that it's deity level? The reason I ask is in Arab Invasion SG I had a 16/16 Anc. Cav. army that pillaged without being bothered with Inf./Cav running around.

 

[denyd]

Sorry for the delay, RL got in the way last night.

 

[jeffelammar]

Sorry for the delay, RL got in the way last night.

No prob. RL can be a real bxxxh. I've been mired down in it all week myself.

 

[CKS]

I'll be out of town (and out of touch) this weekend. Wipe out the Arabs while I'm gone, okay?

Armies need to be loaded in a town, right? That means we need a settler to go with our pillaging force.

With regard to resources, I think strategic resources do matter, even when we aren't actively attacking. The lack of iron, horses, gunpowder, or ivory affects what units they can build, and we will eventually have to kill these units. Bankrupt and only spearmen is a lot better than bankrupt with muskets and knights.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Armies need to be loaded in a town, right?

No. Armies need to be formed in a town. But once that is done, you can load whereever you want.

 

[jeffelammar]

Armies need to be loaded in a town, right? That means we need a settler to go with our pillaging force.

Incorrect. You can only turn a leader into an army in a town. Once the Army is created, you can load units into it anywhere.

In fact, having the army in a town would be almost certain destruction for the army. The AI will attack armies in towns. It is only the armies in the open that it ignores.

Edit: Sorry x-post, thats what I get for going off to read the army strat article before submitting.
It doesn't specifically say that you can load anywhere, but you can

 

[denyd]

Almost done but I have another team question

What should I do with our 2nd MGL?

In turn 9, an Elite Archer killed a wounded Immortal and an MGL was born. I have a 3-Knight Army in the Zulu lands pillaging already. From what I've seen the Zulu & Indians might not be connected. We will be getting Theology & Invention in the IBT, should we wait for muskets to fill this one or knights? I'm pretty sure he should form an army, though both the Heroic Epic & the FP are available. BTW: We don't have a knight to load in the Army at the moment. I currently have research at 0%, should I start gunpowder at the max we can afford in case Education comes in before gunpowder?

I can finish this tomorrow afternoon and be posted by 6pm PDT.

I'll check back around 9am PDT to see what the opinions are.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Yes on researching Gunpowder. Maximum sustanainable (no negative gpt).
Yes on another Army. Just keep it around, we can fill it later. Knights or Muskets, both are fine. The existing army should be able to confirm if India and Zulu are connected or not.
India is a special case, since their UU requires no strategic resources; so they're harder to cripple unit-wise. Still, if we have a pillaging army there as well, we can nicely concentrate on Arabs/Persia.

Guess the FP can be built in like 15 turns easily, and the HE as well; both are too cheap to use a MGL for. Pentagon is an alternative, once we'd need more cities for armies anyway.

on those leaders, denyd!

 

[Whomp]

Sweet! Nice going denyd!!

I'd think it would be best to wait and see who's connected to who. The Indians have AC's too. They will be a pain.

It seems both armies have their advantages. I would think a knight army could do some damage offensively at some point but a musket army would last well into the IA's for covering a SOD. I would slightly lean musket army myself.

 

[denyd]

Turn Log 3

Turn 0 – 150 BC – Looks like I won’t be building very much during this set

IBT: Persia lands a Spear/Warrior combo in the desert

Turn 1 – 130 BC – Catapult wounds Indian Warrior – Elite Swordsman (3/5) kills Indian Warrior and Orhan is born (1st MGL) – Orhan moves to Edrine and forms an Army – Wake Artemis (Elite Archer) and send him to get the new invaders – Veteran Knight moves to Edrine and loads in Army and Army moves to position to attack invaders – Galley heads towards east

IBT: Lots of Galley movement – Zulu’s start Knight’s Templar – Persia builds Knight’s Templar in Persepolis

Turn 2 – 110 BC – Catapult 1 for 2 against invaders – Knight Army (3/4) kills Reg spear – Other military move to surround remaining invader (Reg Warrior) – Hire a 2nd clown in Bursa

IBT: Hector (3/5) defends against Warrior – Heroic Epic message

Turn 3 – 90 BC – Send Army & 2 Knights & Galley east to visit the Zulu - Other troops moving to defend the rest of the island – Sinop hires a taxman

IBT: AI Galleys circle – Now 2 AI have engineering

Turn 4 – 70 BC – Galley & knights & Army heading east – Other troops moving to central location for defense

IBT: Persia lands Pike & Immortal new Antalya – Engineering from Great Library (Persia & Vikings)

Turn 5 – 50 BC – Troops move to repel boarders

IBT: Persian troops turn towards Antalya – Indian Galley prepares to drop off invaders – Complete revolt to Monarchy

Turn 6 – 30 BC – Cats go 2 for 3 against invaders – MDI (3/4) kills Pike – MDI (5/5) kills Immortal and promotes – Knight Army & 2 Knights in Zulu land

IBT: Zulu approach army – Other galleys move away – Uskudar aqueduct->pike

Turn 7 – 10 BC – Move homeland defense to central location – 2 Knights join the Army and it heads off to pillage the Zulu – Upgrade final veteran spearman to pike

IBT: Persia lands 2 Immortals in the SE – Bursa library->barracks

Turn 8 – 10 AD – Troops head to meet Persian invaders – Army pillaging the Zulu – Send a couple units east to check out a Zulu & Indian Galleys

IBT: Persia starts Sistine Chapel – Vikings start Leonardo’s Workshop – Both Theology & Inventions next turn

Turn 9 – 30 AD – Cats go 2 for 3 against invaders – Sword (5/5) kills Immortal – Elite Archer (4/5) kills Immortal and Murad I is born (2nd MGL) – Murad I moves to Edrine and forms an army

IBT: No new landings – Theology & Invention from Great Library – Research Gunpowder at 40% (due in 45 turns) @ -1gpt – Uskudar pike->knight – Vikings start Sistine Chapel

Turn 10 – 50 AD – Hire a scientist in Bursa to prevent rioting – Army II is fortified in Edrine – Army I pillages in Zulu land and captures a Zulu slave

I’ve kept our attacking units in the center of the island and dispatch them when an AI landing seems imminent. There is an empty army in Edrine waiting for something to load it with. I’ve been rethinking our attack plans and the Zulu might present a better first target for the following reasons, both the Indians & Persians have an active UU that could trigger their GA and both will present difficulties for our current military. Secondly, if it turns out that the Zulu are alone, then all we’d face ont their island is archers & Impis, which our knights should handle easily. Attacking either the Arabs or Persia will allow the other to arrive in force with a land based SOD. One other thing, we’ll soon need to reinforce our coastal cities with Berserks on the board. It looks like the Vikings aren’t able to reach us with galleys, but soon they will have caravels.

Edit: Sorry I forgot a picture - I'll see if I can post a screenshot when I get back later today.

 

[Whomp]

I got it.
Thoughts on:
1. Denyd's plan. Seems like an easier target and we haven't seen much in the way of their forces lately.
2. What do we put in the other army.

If we take denyd's tact then the 2nd army could pillage one of the others.
I will wait a few hours and see if anyone posts.

 

[Whomp]

I won't be able to play tonight (Cubs-Red Sox game ) so if someone wants to slip in please do.

A few things for clarification....
There was a chop due 2 and rax due in 3 at Bursa with a scientist however I could get the rax in 2 instead of 3 by moving the scientist. Should I change it to a market for the chop?
There were a lot of jungles being cut. It seemed like there was still some development needed in other cities. Why the jungles now?

I plan to load the army with knights since we are still a ways away from muskets.
I think taking it to Arabia makes sense since it can get what looks like two countries for pillaging.
We could really use another lux. We're running 30% lux now.

 

[jeffelammar]

1. For who to attack.
If we decide to attack Zulu or India, then definately pillage on the Arabian/Persian continent.
The Zulu do look ripe for picking. I wish we'd know that before we took the army there
I'm waffling here, but I think that Deny's plan makes a lot of sense.
If we do this, we need to make sure that the next army pillages India, they are getting a bit ahead of where I would want them.

2. Given that we will be researching like mad for a while, I don't know how much a Market helps us, With the current build, we should get the Rax in 2 with the chop, I would lean towards sticking with that. (check the shield count first though)

3. As for the Jungles, I know I was going after them in my turn set to get our cities growing. I went after them with stacks instead of singles, but that is more a matter of style. Is there any other improvement that you think is important. The jungles seem like the priority to me.

Any other thoughts anyone?

 

[CKS]

Nice to know about loading armies, not that I'm often in a position where I have armies before railroads. (My thoughts had been more along the lines of, build the town, load the army, abandon the town. The army wouldn't have stayed in town to be slaughtered.)

The Zulu are going to remain a tempting target as long as they don't have gunpowder. If we delay a little while, we'll still be safe. Taking out the Zulu does make a lot of sense, but I think we can keep them pillaged to Impis and longbows for a while. Zimbabwe can't trade, since it isn't coastal. What we can see of the terrain doesn't suggest saltpeter deposits, and we can keep the land pillaged anyway. Until riflemen, the Zulu will have big problems. For this reason, I'm inclined to go for the Arabs or the Indians first.

Pillaging Arabia and Persia with our next army does give us a wide range to pillage. Taking out the roads would also keep Persia from getting to us quickly when we do invade, reducing the amount of time we need to spend actively engaging both of them.

These lead me to believe that India should be our next target. If a third leader falls into our lap, however, I'd send army 3 to India and then invade the Arabs, following in the footsteps of our pillaging army.

Jungles: Most of the cities with other unimproved land aren't working the tiles that aren't improved, because they have better choices. The jungle will give us good land once it is clear, and several jungle cities are working poor tiles. I think now is a good time to clear it.

Bursa: Bursa is 21 shields from the barracks, gaining 10 per turn. If the chop comes in 2 turns, we'll lose 9 shields - not so good. (I haven't checked; are we sure the chop will go to Bursa rather than Edrine or Uskudar?) I'd rather get a courthouse there than a market, though.

 

[Whomp]

1. I will wait for consensus on this.
2. I will check but I think it would waste some shields on the chop because moving the 1 citizen got it in 2 vs. 3 turns without the chop and the chop is due to finish in 2 turns. The chop was inside Bursa's city window.
3. I don't think there were any citizens in the core cities working undeveloped tiles like cks said and the workers not on jungles could work on non jungle maintainence. Sounds likes it's best to let the solo workers to finish their work chopping jungles.