SGOTM7 - Team Wacken

[Wotan]

OK, looks good! We have taken a firm lead in the race. But we need to continue focusing on what will matter in the long run.

1. Getting the Philo bonus! With 10 turns to go at Philo we will probably have it in about 8 turns due to normal expansion. I would suggest we approach the Arabs now and trade Writing to them so we get IW and The Wheel. We take MM as our free tech and plan to meet the next AI in time to trade for a few other techs like Poly and Maths. We research Literature for future trading so we get the AI's to bulid TGL.
2. Switch Istanbul to finish a Barracks now. It will have Istanbul working as a 10spt town after the Barracks have been built.
3. Fan out into the jungle area to deny it to new Barb.Camps. We are just paying too much at present for Barbs ransacking our locations.
4. Decide on who will be our first target after MM. India, Zulu or Arabs? India would be a good choice in my opinion with MA UU. Zulu have Impis and they are a pain in the you know what if we fight them with HMs and SMs.
5. This is a bit delicate but I would like a discussion on TGL to recommence. We were leaning towards skipping it, Me, Wacken and Xevious against building it and Offa and Dman (obviously) for building it. It is a huge investment and maybe we should go for a Barracks in Izmit? Maybe wait and see what we get from trading with Arabs if that happens before a Barracks would be finished?
6. Production vs. Growth. I would like us all to prioritize growth to production when a choice is available. I agree with Wackens assessment in his post above re. Bursa. A larger location will also give you more freedom to MM it. OTOH ther are always moments when an extra shield is to prefer so it is not carved in stone.
7. I would like us to settle in the tile where the wounded Warrior is in the South.
8. Iznik to build Workers until further notice.
9. MM Edrine to produce 3 shields for two turns and them 2 shields for 2 turns or 2 shields continuosly. That way we can boost production in Bursa by giving it access to the mined BG.
10. We are hopefully less than 10 turns from MM. With a good trade with Arabs bagging us both IW and The Wheel we should have knowledge of strategic resources and start building military and prebuild Galleys. A lot to ask for but we need it so maybe skipping TGL is not such a bad idea after all.

Well guys, those are my ten commandments. Adhere!

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I would like to add some more reasons not to build TGL:

-This is a small map, low OCN. That makes the investment much heavier. In fact, we only have 3 real productional cities. The library will occupy one of those cities for 80 turns.

-With such a long build time, we will need to get the ancient age techs ourselves anyway. The only thing the library will help us with is getting from end ancient age to chivalry.
We have lots of time to have the AI build it and capture it. If they don't build it, we can even decide to build it later on. If we have it in time to get chivalry from it we are ok.

-If we build it, we do still have the risk to be beaten to it. That would be a disasterous waste.

Like wotan said, i would like to proceed the discussion on this. Grahamiam will also be back the day after tomorrow.

Other points of discussion espescially details i have no time for right now at work. Unlike most days here, i actually have work to do today !

 

[Offa]

If you are serious about not building the Library, then surely we ought to take lit as our free tech and then give it to the arabs so they will build the library +/or trade lit so someone else will build it. Therefore we ought not try to meet the Arabs just yet.

Wacken: do you really think it will take 80 turns to build the GL?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

If you are serious about not building the Library, then surely we ought to take lit as our free tech and then give it to the arabs so they will build the library +/or trade lit so someone else will build it. Therefore we ought not try to meet the Arabs just yet.

Wacken: do you really think it will take 80 turns to build the GL?

yes, i roughly calculated that. Not completely exact, so i might be off a little, but not very much. If wanted, i will calculate it exactly tonight.

 

[dmanakho]

I owe some explanation on my GLib decision and also Bursa

1. Bursa... I did work on it with +5 food suprlus. But that silly city will riot once reaching pop 4. It would require lux slider to be kept at 40% to calm citizens down. I didn't want to do it just for that one city. If i did we still would be researching writing. I didn't have any spare warriors to MP it either.
So i decided that postponing granary build a little is a lesser evil than increasing research time. I am not saying i am right, it just felt right to me.

2. GLib. After reading the re-make of War and Peace you guys put together I still didn't have a clear picture on GrLib decision.
So i started it anyways but Izmit is so low on shields at a moment we can always switch to barracks now and no shields will be lost.
Looks like Offa and I are strong proponents of building it against three of you.
Lets hear what g-man will say, but i will go with the team and won't insist on building it if you guys feel strongly we won't need it.

3. Iznik looks like a good location for FP with 2 cows after it builds few workers.

4. Let's do the best out of Philo trading. What exactly we get will depend on situation in 8-10 turns. I have a second thought on giving writing to AIs now.
As soon as we give them writing they will start research MM and i'd rather postpone that until a little later when we have more units.

5. I second with Wotan. Lets settler where the southern 2hp warrior is. Settler was moving to that exact location and warrior can move into jungles for barb hunting.

6. I was thinking getting another settler of istanbul before barracks. I want to settle either on top of spices or one tile south of it. That will make a buffer city between Edrine and jungles infestates with barbs.

Well... That's only the thoughts i can add to what you guys have already said.

 

[Wotan]

If you are serious about not building the Library, then surely we ought to take lit as our free tech and then give it to the arabs so they will build the library +/or trade lit so someone else will build it. Therefore we ought not try to meet the Arabs just yet.

Please do not take Lit as the free tech. If we do we postpone any warfare by at least 12-15 turns until we have researched MM. Lit is 333 beakers and MM is 400 so it will be cheaper and quicker to research it and we can take the war to our enemies that much quicker. This is by far the most important argument for MM IMO.
Maybe wait for Philo to finish before meeting the Arabs though... It all depends on how far the Zulu advance during your turnset since I am sure Arabs and Zulu are in contact. We should be able to get an idication of Arab tech level by observing what happens to the Zulu.

Even if it takes only 40 turns to build TGL (unlikely since getting 10 spt in "I" would require 15 spt in gross production) it is the alternative cost that has me questioning this choice. As Wacken pointed out, we are talking about 13 1/3 HMs/SMs here. We can do an awful lot with them, including capturing GWs.

 

[Wotan]

1. Bursa... I did work on it with +5 food suprlus. But that silly city will riot once reaching pop 4. It would require lux slider to be kept at 40% to calm citizens down. I didn't want to do it just for that one city. If i did we still would be researching writing. I didn't have any spare warriors to MP it either.
So i decided that postponing granary build a little is a lesser evil than increasing research time. I am not saying i am right, it just felt right to me..

I might be of a different opinion here. Better to go at full fpt and when the city is about to riot put a citizen on "scientific work". The city will drop from +5 to +3 fpt but will give +3beakers!!! and still grow faster than the +2fpt city. When the city grows again convert the scientist to an enetertainer and get the production from a citizen working a tile. All in all we win by doing this.

3. Iznik looks like a good location for FP with 2 cows after it builds few workers.

I guess I am hoping we land a few MGLs in this game, one of them should build the FP.

6. I was thinking getting another settler of istanbul before barracks. I want to settle either on top of spices or one tile south of it. That will make a buffer city between Edrine and jungles infestates with barbs.

Would prefer to go Barracks first since this will make Istanbul a 10spt location. The Settler will be ready 3 turns later but we will be better off doing this IMO.

 

[Wotan]

Depending on the availability of Iron and Horses we need to discuss what instrument of warfare to use. I am always in favour of Horsemen over Swordsmen. The lower Attackvalue is more than compensated by the retreat ability of the Horseman to make him available to fight another day after recuperating.

 

[Xevious]

6. I was thinking getting another settler of istanbul before barracks. I want to settle either on top of spices or one tile south of it. That will make a buffer city between Edrine and jungles infestates with barbs.

Wotan has already commented on getting the barracks first, which I agree with. The other thing I wonder about is if we settle one south of the spices, that puts the border of that city right next to Baghdad's border. Won't that give us contact on the next turn? Or do they have to "see" one of our units to make contact?

 

[Wotan]

The other thing I wonder about is if we settle one south of the spices, that puts the border of that city right next to Baghdad's border. Won't that give us contact on the next turn? Or do they have to "see" one of our units to make contact?

AFAIK the spices are out of our reach until we want to establish contact with the Arabs.

 

[Xevious]

Depending on the availability of Iron and Horses we need to discuss what instrument of warfare to use. I am always in favour of Horsemen over Swordsmen. The lower Attackvalue is more than compensated by the retreat ability of the Horseman to make him available to fight another day after recuperating.

Again, I agree with this. If we can't get our win in ancient age I would much rather upgrade to knights than MI. The big thing, I think, will be finding and pillaging iron resources so the opponents can't build pikes.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I owe some explanation on my GLib decision and also Bursa

1. Bursa... I did work on it with +5 food suprlus. But that silly city will riot once reaching pop 4. It would require lux slider to be kept at 40% to calm citizens down. I didn't want to do it just for that one city. If i did we still would be researching writing. I didn't have any spare warriors to MP it either.
So i decided that postponing granary build a little is a lesser evil than increasing research time. I am not saying i am right, it just felt right to me.

2. GLib. After reading the re-make of War and Peace you guys put together I still didn't have a clear picture on GrLib decision.
So i started it anyways but Izmit is so low on shields at a moment we can always switch to barracks now and no shields will be lost.
Looks like Offa and I are strong proponents of building it against three of you.
Lets hear what g-man will say, but i will go with the team and won't insist on building it if you guys feel strongly we won't need it.

3. Iznik looks like a good location for FP with 2 cows after it builds few workers.

4. Let's do the best out of Philo trading. What exactly we get will depend on situation in 8-10 turns. I have a second thought on giving writing to AIs now.
As soon as we give them writing they will start research MM and i'd rather postpone that until a little later when we have more units.

5. I second with Wotan. Lets settler where the southern 2hp warrior is. Settler was moving to that exact location and warrior can move into jungles for barb hunting.

6. I was thinking getting another settler of istanbul before barracks. I want to settle either on top of spices or one tile south of it. That will make a buffer city between Edrine and jungles infestates with barbs.

Well... That's only the thoughts i can add to what you guys have already said.

1. sounds pretty reasonable, i think we should really look for an MP though to put in there.

2. I do strongly feel so feeling stronger about it every hour as the plans to work without it get better and more detailed.

3. Indeed

4. I am not really afraid of their attacks, at least not if we don't build the library and invest in military . If we give them writing and philo 10 turns from now, they will take another 15 to research map making, andother 5 to build a galley since they dont prebuild. By that time we will be a super power.

5-6 Haven't thought much about city placement lately. I do however still stand by my dotmap for the eastcoast since i dont want to need culture in order to get acces to all tiles.

Tonight i will exactly calculate the cost of the library.
Also will i start thinking more detailed about how to research and trade the needed techs, how much money we can gather to upgrade warriors and when we can have our attack force ready.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

About the sword / horsemen thing:
In battle, they are roughly equal in losses to suffer when attacking a city.
(i did calculations on this some while ago, it is different depending on what the target is (hills, walls etc) in one situation the horses will have less losses, in another the swords will lose less)
The difference is that you need more horses than you need swords to have the same chances.
I prefer a combination of both. Upgrade some warriors to swords, and build some horses from scratch. They should of course not be used in the same attack stack as then the advantage of the horses mobility is lost. I would probably start an attack with the swords while producing horses and have the newly produced horses defend home until we have enough to mount another attack with them. That is how i normally do it anyway.

Of course, we need money to upgrade for this plan.

If it turns out we cannot gather enough money for an upgrade, we should be producing other things than warriors asap. Therefore, as i said i will think about the future plans in more detail tonight.

 

[dmanakho]

AFAIK the spices are out of our reach until we want to establish contact with the Arabs.

I don't see a problem here.
If we switch Istanbul to barracks and postpone settler build. Then it will take another 5 turns for settler to get to spices it will be exactly the time when we will want to meet arabs

EDIT: In most situation i prefer horses. My main reason to use horses - their mobility in addition for retreat chances.
But since this is a small map mobility is not a big issue and swords can conquer the world with just about the same speed as horses.
I'd love to have horses on our home land to protect against invasions though.
We will need less of them to cover all towns.

 

[Wotan]

I don't see a problem here.
If we switch Istanbul to barracks and postpone settler build. Then it will take another 5 turns for settler to get to spices it will be exactly the time when we will want to meet arabs

You are absolutely right about this!

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Ok, i started with the easy part. The granary duration:
corruption = 33%

at size 2, it can get 5 shields. 3 after curruption.
at size 3, it can get 7 shields by using both BG and the goats. 5 after corruption
at size 4, it can get 8 shields. 5 after corruption.
at size 5, it can get 9 shields. 6 after corruption.
at size 6, it can get 12 shields by using 2 bg, 1 goat, a irrigated plain and 2 forest. 8 after corruption.

It currently has 24 shields.
It has 8 turns to go in size 2. (9, but at growth it will benefit from the next citizen already)

So that makes:

in stock = 24
(2)8 x 3 = 24
(3)10 x 5 = 50
(4)10 x 5 = 50
(5)10 x 6 = 60
(6)24 x 8 = 192
------------------
total 400

total 62 turns from now if we give it all resources including the goat that will be needed for the worker factory.
with 11 turns invested already making 73. (i hadn't planned to use the goat for the library in my 80 turn estimate)

A worker join 8 turns from now would reduce it by 4 turns, 6 if we do it right now, but that is not reasonably possible IMO.

 

[dmanakho]

Ok...
I have only one reason to go for Gr.Lib.
Won't it help us to actually have a bigger army in a long run?
I know that now we can have more units for all those shields Gr.Lib provides
But if we have it 60 turns from now and then quit all research we can actually use cash rushes to build units and therefore build more horses and swords. I think we will recoup all those "lost units in no time.
If we don't have Gr.Lib we will have to do all the research ourselves and won't have money neither for upgrades nor for cash rushes.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Yes, that could be true if the AI will not at all build the Glib. We of course hope to capture it.

Also resources now have a higher value than resources later on in the game.

 

[Offa]

I will play later tonight.

60+ turns for the Library is too long. We shouldn't start a build like that just now so I will switch the Wonder city back to a barracks. We could build it later I suppose.

Any suggestions are welcome, especially locations for cities.

Shouldn't somewhere make some boats?

I don't think we can sensibly work out a target yet, as an ironless, horseless foe would be preferred.

After mapmaking I would probably learn lit at min to save some cash for upgrades. I rather favour swords over horses, at least to start with.

 

[Wotan]

Any suggestions are welcome, especially locations for cities.

River estuaries, under the wounded Warrior and near Baghdad when we are about to contact the Arabs. If we can get a road down there maybe go for the Arabs first?

Shouldn't somewhere make some boats?.

Somewhere close to where we want to land, maybe? Building Curraghs for upgrades could be a good idea. OTOH we need a few "attack" units to send with the upgraded boats too. If you can pull a rabbit out of the hat on this and build both I will be impressed!

I don't think we can sensibly work out a target yet, as an ironless, horseless foe would be preferred.

That would be us, right? No seriously, I guess we could go anywhere really. Zulus would take away the pressure on Uskudar and the distance between Uskudar and Hlobane is so short we can shuttle new units between them with ease. But they have Impis.

After mapmaking I would probably learn lit at min to save some cash for upgrades. I rather favour swords over horses, at least to start with.

Let's hope we get Iron then... OTOH before we have HMs we need both The Wheel and HBR... so maybe Swordsmen are the first go into action no matter what we want.