SGOTM8 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

We could always rush the Great Library or another Wonder.

Yes, but we would need a city to rush it in. That means we can't give them all up on the old continent. More on that below concerning resources and lux's.

There's a lot to think about here. Here are some random thoughts (not a real plan).

Yes, there is much to consider. Our options are nearly limitless at this point. What we choose now will set the course and it might be difficult to turn the ship around.

I don't think we need to worry about trying to rebuild cities on our starting island if we choose to go this route. What I hope is that with open land to settle the AIs will send a ship and a settler over periodically and that we can pick them off with our remaining military there before they can settle a city. We'll also want to keep some workers to repair roads damaged by barbs.

The problem here is resources and lux's. The Japanese territory has Ivory in the south and Silks in the north. It also has 1 source of Iron in the extreme south and 1 source of Horses in the north. Based on the test game, if we are lucky enough to get a couple of cities in a deal, they will be small ones and those are mostly in the south. With one or 2 cities, we won't be making much gold and we have to support our military.

Can we make some money by selling some workers to help us build up a reserve?

Yes, workers normally fetch around 100 to 135 Gold and we have 9 of our own plus 2 slaves from China. So, we might be able to raise 1000 Gold or so. Our military consists of 1 Settler, 10 Workers (1 eq that we can't sell, iirc), 7 Warriors, 8 Archers, 3 Spears and 25 Horses. I think we could do without all but 2 or 3 workers and the Horses. So, we would be losing between 20 and 28 GPT depending on if we acquire 1 city or 2. With a Thousand Gold, that means we have a 30 to 40 turn cushion.

In a new city we will require a worker at 10 shields, Rax at 40 shields and then, if we have horses, 30 shields a horse. To build an army of 20 Horses requires a minimum of 650 shields. If we average 10 shields per turn (doubtful) that means 65 turns. That is a long time!!

Is there enough room in JPN territory for us to establish 4 or 5 cities from which to build a military with? If we can't get 4 or 5 cities on their island the plan won't work very well. We won't have enough gold to support our military and we won't be able to research. It would more than likely end in our defeat.

Japan is pretty loosely settled. We would want to be in the south as there are jungles to the north. Its possible to bild a 4 or 5 city area there, but it will be tight and we may start a war before we're ready because of provocative settling. Also remember that Japan should have Samurai with 60 turns or so and will we have the gold needed to upgrade Horsies to Knights. that is an expensive upgrade!

It might be worth trying just to see if it can be done.

I think everyone would have to agree to try this as I think we have to be prepared for tough times. It'll require some grit.

Should I work on an alternative?

 

[DJMGator13]

Should I work on an alternative?

By all means. I'm not saying mine is the way to go it was just something I thought up (and I was sober at the time ).

One alternative is the late IA and MA war:
We need to go on a massive library expansion in our core and switch to Republic immediately. Push the tech pace and hope the AI's do some research for us to allow us a chance at a fastest finish.

Alternative to the All or Nothing Plan let's call it Greed since gold per turn will be key:
Instead of abandoning our core cities we switch to republic and start bank rolling money as we wipe out China & Greece. We still gain the 2 off island cities from China and England and we cash rush a new army at one location then repeat procedure for the other big island. I see this as a no research and we get what we can from pointy stick research. This plan could be launched immediately. The only way to build an army off our main island is to either jump the palace or buy one. Horses would be good enough to take on either Japan or England right now. Rome would still be a little hard with horses versus legions.

I think I like this plan better than the All or Nothing one. There is no way to recover under the All or Nothing plan. This one still allows us some flexibility.

If we don't go with the All or Nothing Plan I'd like to try it after we officially finish our game just to see if it would work.

 

[Mistfit]

Hey Gator! Nice to see someone else has picked up the mantle of "head crazy idea guy" while I'm gone from the team

You guys are getting absolutely spanked in the Spam Department.

You are a distant third place! This cannot continue to happen. Spam-a'lama'ding'dong guys!!! You don't want the other teams to think that Alan was the only one who could spew forth idea after idea do ya?

Sorry for the rant...

(and I was sober at the time ).

Me....no so much

Oh yeah I found another great smillie

 

[DJMGator13]

Oh Evil one, thanks for the new title.

If you're drinking you must be Civing.

Great smiley.

 

[leif erikson]

By all means. I'm not saying mine is the way to go it was just something I thought up (and I was sober at the time ).

No, I did not take it that way. My question was more about whether we needed to do some more exploring on this option or answer some more questions that we may have thought up. I agree that it would be an interesting thing to try. We would be "flying by the seat of our britches" most of the time, imho.

Alternative to the All or Nothing Plan let's call it Greed since gold per turn will be key:
Instead of abandoning our core cities we switch to republic and start bank rolling money as we wipe out China & Greece. We still gain the 2 off island cities from China and England and we cash rush a new army at one location then repeat procedure for the other big island. I see this as a no research and we get what we can from pointy stick research. This plan could be launched immediately. The only way to build an army off our main island is to either jump the palace or buy one. Horses would be good enough to take on either Japan or England right now. Rome would still be a little hard with horses versus legions.

We are thinking much more alike here. A cash machine is what I think we need to create. We need to finish both China and Greece, getting whatever off shore cities we can, and settling our continent fully, generating as much gold as we can and some culture as well.

We can use the techniques we've discussed to create gateway cities on each continent where we can rush units, or airfields when the time comes. Once we have the gateway cities, I think we should consider creating one big, happy and peaceful world to push the tech pace. We may want to keep a Greek city around to feed techs to at change of age in order to get the free tech they receive.

We should try to take what we can but should be aware of tech pace. Once we get our continent, we should encourage a faster tech pace, and that often means peace. (Did I say that??)

Now if we could find that last civ and get their maps, we'd be all set.

 

[Mistfit]

Yup! Working on a new HoF game... Completely different for me. No quick dom this time.

I don't wanna spoil it (and it is way off topic) but if my test games work out right I should have a game and a spoiler thread to post in a week or 2 if I can find more time to drink...er I mean play civ... actually they are the same thing for me

I raise my glass of Gentleman Jack to you Guys! Cheers!

 

[leif erikson]

I raise my glass of Gentleman Jack to you Guys! Cheers!

Mother-in-Law visiting again Mistfit?

I'm ready to try Gator daring plan, but I think some Gentleman Jack would be in order. Is there a way I can get the RNG to might be more cooperative!! :shakehead

Love the new smiley, makes you feel like a ??????

 

[DJMGator13]

I'm not sure we need to wait for airports under the Greed plan. But it will hinge on how much money we can make. I think with a little refining this is probably our best bet.

Let's see what the others have to say and let's hope Willow's car was still there when she went back outside.

BTW, I'll be in Gainesville for Urban's first game as the new Gator head coach.

 

[DJMGator13]

Nemesis still hasn't been online since the 24th, I hope everything is OK.

@leif - keep studying the All or Nothing Plan also. It is tempting to try something new but it could really backfire on us.

 

[Mistfit]

Do you guys ever use MSN or Yahoo chat? It's somthing that I've picked up during my time at CDZ. It is really useful when discussing plans like this. The information can be shot back and forth much quicker than here. Getting everyone to use it and be online at the same time can be a pain in the arse but... It's a thought.

If you guys are on MSN look me up

nchtc3 <AT> chartermi <DOT> net

 

[Capt Buttkick]

As a variant of Gator's proposal:
If we get a GL to build the FP in the north of China, could we abandon all other Chinese cities and the northernmost cities of our own?
If we then jump palace to SW Japan, our old core should be closer to the new capitol than to the FP and we can then proceed with building a new core with our Japanese cities and filling in old China as we go along.

 

[AlanH]

Do you guys ever use MSN or Yahoo chat?

If you do that it would be good to see a session transcript here (edited for language if necessary ). We lurkers really do like to see the way the cogs rotate inside those skulls.

 

[leif erikson]

As a variant of Gator's proposal:
If we get a GL to build the FP in the north of China, could we abandon all other Chinese cities and the northernmost cities of our own?
If we then jump palace to SW Japan, our old core should be closer to the new capitol than to the FP and we can then proceed with building a new core with our Japanese cities and filling in old China as we go along.

Hi Capt.

I'm trying to get straight in my little mind what you mean. Are you saying that if we have a FP city in the north with no other cities around it, then we could jump the palace to southern Japan because we wouldn't be taking advantage of the remote palace corruption exploit as our old core cities would be closer to the palace than the FP? Therefore it would follow that, because we don't take advantage of the exploit, we could jump the palace without having a 5 or 6 city core established before the jump.

As I understand the free palace jump, it will be hard to make it land in Japan because the formula includes neighboring friendly cities, pop size, age and number of military. If we leave cities on the old continent, I don't see how we're going to get the palace to go where we want without the time needed to build both pop and military units to make the new site become the "top site", if you know what I mean.

We would need to use the free palace jump as we can't transport a leader to another continent.

The more I think about it the more I agree with Gator that the way to go is the greed scenario. I think it is almost time to decide. Are there any other ideas for getting military to other continents to take it to our enemies?

If not, then perhaps we should start finalizing this portion of the discussion by each player summarizing what they think we should do and then we can try to weave that into a plan we all can execute? Does this sound reasonable?

 

[WillowBrook]

Okay, back on line for a few minutes. And I took the bus today, so no risk of losing my car!

So it looks like there are three possible strategies:

-All or Nothing abandon home island, leaving behind military to keep off the AI, start over elsewhere. I think this is too risky. But once the game is over, I'd love to hear about an attempt to do it, if I don't have the time to do it myself.

-Greed switch to republic, get lots of gold, cash-rush military in off-island cities to conquer and do pointy-stick research

-Tech-Race go to republic, make peace, and push the tech as fast as possible to air travel

Please correct any mis-perceptions of the strategies!

IMHO, Greed has a better chance of leading to an earlier victory, but it could fail and we wouldn't win until air travel, which would come later under this plan than the Tech-Race.

My vote is for the Greed strategy, though, as always, the devil is in the details....

Now back to my chieftan 100k attempt (well, 80k since I'm on a small world)

 

[leif erikson]

Okay, back on line for a few minutes. And I took the bus today, so no risk of losing my car!

Glad to see you got some time to wade through all our stuff without having to worry about your car. Good summaries!

Now back to my chieftan 100k attempt (well, 80k since I'm on a small world)

Good luck!!

 

[bluebox]

Good summary, Willow!!

I think we should include a palace jump somewhere in our plan. We don't need a palace in our homeland once we are conquering other continents. I'd like to suggest a greed plan where we start cashrushing a little army on another continent and jump the palace there once we have a sufficient foothold there. I'd prefer going to Japan first and later conquer Rome with the power of a new core.

Question is what to do with a FP. Maybe build it in our homeland to provide a constant gold supply.

Attempts to conquer England could run parallel as a 2nd target. If we were very lucky we could built the FP over there and have 2 cores on separate continents.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks Bluebox

I don't think we intend to spell out a plan that will take all events into consideration and lock us up as to what we can and can not do. I hope that what we will come up with is more of an outline that we can change as events happen. Flexibility is the key, imho. But if we agree on a general goal to work towards, I know it'll help me play more effectively, I hope!!

If it becomes clear that we would benefit from a palace jump, then we should do it as long as we meet the requirements that Alan and Gyathaar have set out for us.

 

[DJMGator13]

Greed is good.

Whether we incorporate a palace jump into the plan can be decided later. A FP on our home island will aid the gpt numbers so we could wait to start it until we get a GL or we could start hand building it in our core and plan on a future palace jump.

I'd be leery of jumping the palace out of our economic core. Once we have a suffiecient army to finish off China and the Greeks than we should focus on economics. I'd build marketplaces and courthouses to maximize our gold. A palace jump to another island will only hurt our economy. We're planning on buying an army, not building one.

If we switch to Republic now and drop our research to 0 we can start acquiring gold. As for the next target I still think we may want to let Rome and Japan beat on each other before we go against either of them, so England may be a good choice but we can decide that as we near the end of cleansing our island of the water loving savages. Next target may also hinge on who builds the Great Library.

EDIT: Bluebox's idea of a second core in England would also allow us to build some troops there and save us money towards taking on the more difficult ROM/JPN island. But it will take a GL to be able to build the FP there.

 

[Mistfit]

Oh Evil one, thanks for the new title.

Right back at ya Oh amphibious one!

 

[leif erikson]

Greed is good.

If we switch to Republic now and drop our research to 0 we can start acquiring gold. As for the next target I still think we may want to let Rome and Japan beat on each other before we go against either of them, so England may be a good choice but we can decide that as we near the end of cleansing our island of the water loving savages. Next target may also hinge on who builds the Great Library.

I agree, greed is GOOD! I will try to play tomorrow evening. My goal will be to eliminate the Chinese, getting Tientsin in the deal, and starting on the Greeks. Once Athens is secure and I think I have enough Horsies to take Corinth (where Greece is building The Great Library), I will plan to revolt to get to Republic. Should a leader emerge, I will most likely stop and ask what we think we should do with it.

EDIT: Bluebox's idea of a second core in England would also allow us to build some troops there and save us money towards taking on the more difficult ROM/JPN island. But it will take a GL to be able to build the FP there.

The beauty of locating the palace in English territory is that the landform would allow us to spread out the city ring, say 5 or 6 and 8. This would allow the FP to be more effective. I agree we need to see how it goes. I'll try to get as much of Greece out of the way as possible and start on Marketplaces, which is due in 3 and I plan to complete. We may be able to use that to get peace with Rome.

So, we have another 24 hours, more or less, for comments before we get going again. It has been an interesting exchange of ideas.

BTW - I played Theoden's Quick Game based on GOTM 43. In the space of 10 turns, I got 2 leaders!! I sure hope luck is changing!!
I sure hope I didn't use up my odds??