SGOTM8 - Xteam

[Capt Buttkick]

Excellent turnset, Willow

Should I just regroup and then hit Greece again or should we settle this continent and let them off in a boat? I'm worried about flips...

I agree with FP placement, so far (but I'm open for discussion ). Detroit is a nice place for it. Only problem is I'd prefer a looser fit, because that way it's more probable that we can set up a core on a different continent before jumping the palace.

 

[leif erikson]

Only problem is I'd prefer a looser fit, because that way it's more probable that we can set up a core on a different continent before jumping the palace.

Yes, I was worried about flipping as well. CrpMapstat syas that Pharsalos (I assume becuase of the 2 pop and 1 resister) has a chance of 0.61 to 1.67 and requires a garrison of 6 while Athens is 0.0 to 0.38 and requires a garrison of 4. So it isn't too bad, atm.

Its early and I'm not sure I fully understand what a "looser fit" is? Do you mean around the FP, the Palace or a future palace site?

I'm torn over the fate of the Greeks. I'm not sure it would hurt to allow Delphi to survive for the time being. Their only puirpose would be to give us Nationalism at age change, although I think we can prolly get that from one of the others anyway. Opinions on Greece's fate?

EDIT - Just checked CivAssist2 regarding a change to Republic. Not to be greedy or anything, but once the FP is built, we should go and get Corinth (perhaps another GL? or pushing our luck?) and then revolt for Republic. CivAssist 2 says that building the FP will increase our Gold from 24 to 36 per turn, and then revolting into Republic would give us plus 29 GPT.

Capt., this is your specialty, building. The other question I was thinking about is how many Libraries do we need? I figured we were going to be brutes and reserach by pointy stick or trades of Gold?

EDIT2 - We are building a lot of Spears? Will we really need them as once we hit Republic, there is no MP and we'll have Horses or Knights as a mobile defense. They can't go anywhere else.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I mant a looser fit around the FP, yes. So that we're less tied up w/r to our options when jumping palace.

I'd usually have revolted to Republic a long time ago. I very rarely find it useful to wait around, even at war. I agree on waiting this time, though, since we had to fight hoppies with horses.

There won't be a lot of spears built on my watch. Unless it's in a slow growing town on another continent, we don't need that kind of defense imhso.

I just thought of another way to jump military
What if we place a lot of our military on the tip of our continent and then wait for Greece to settle and culturally expand? Could we then jump to another continent when being forced out of their territory?
Maybe that idea came a little too late?

 

[leif erikson]

I mant a looser fit around the FP, yes. So that we're less tied up w/r to our options when jumping palace.

I assume once again your talking about a "free" palace jump. It will be difficult to predict where the darn thing will go when we start to get larger cities.

I think I'll rely on the beg and plead method I used with Willow!

The next leader we need to beg and plead for is one that will allow us to build Leo's!

As soon as you secure Greece and get into Republic, I'm wondering if we shouldn't start a little mayhem with England, perhaps come up with a city or two from which we can begin buying some Knights. It might be more beneficial to gift Pharsalos and Thermopoly to the Vikings, declare on them and try ot get both Vasteros and Kalmar in the peace deal so we can go after England. We might also try for something on the Viking Island, but their cities are getting larger.

I just thought of another way to jump military
What if we place a lot of our military on the tip of our continent and then wait for Greece to settle and culturally expand? Could we then jump to another continent when being forced out of their territory?
Maybe that idea came a little too late?

See how these fit your scenario for jumping troops.

3. Unit teleportation to foreign locations by gifting or deliberately abandoning cities is not allowed. Gyathaar's "Dunkirk" retrieval option is permitted, but the situation should be carefully noted in your turn log.

and

@grahamian: I was trying to be kind, and I would think the spriit of the rule Gyathaar and I have suggested is pretty obvious. If you insist on a clear and simple rule we can make it so:

You may not teleport units by gifting or abandoning cities. You can only gift or abandon an empty city.

I'm not sure but I think it goes against the "spirit" of the rules, imho.
But keep on thinking Jeeves!!

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I'm of course willing to ask for a ruling on this, but it hasn't got much to do with those rulings, again imhso. The problem is: will there be land available on the other continent for us to land there, instead of being cast back into old China?

Calculating palace jumps are supposed to be pretty straightforward, I saw a formula somewhere. But basically, if we have few and big cities on another continent, they'll still beat many small ones on our own continent, especially if we can get our military count up in the designated capitol.

 

[AlanH]

Capt Buttkick is right. There's no problem with trying for an eviction to jump units overseas. It isn't in any way related to the issues of teleportation by gifting cities. Of course, you do have to figure out if it will work, as well

 

[WillowBrook]

Question about FP "discs": I was under the impression (very likely erroneously) that you want a disc of cities closer to the FP than the first ring of cities around the palace for minimum corruption. In our world, that would mean cities at distance 3 or less. Hence my suggestion of the FP city build east of Detroit. Am I mistaken, or does the Detroit plan involve cities at the second lowest coruption level?

As for opinions on a few other things:
-I'd vote to keep the Greeks around for nationalism and maybe even fission. As noted, we don't need many troops to eliminate the flip probability. This may require active protection, as someone destroyed their northernmost town sometime during my turnset (they were at war with the Romans and either the English or Japanese at the time).
-I like the gifting/taking strategy for getting a foothold on the English Island. I'm wondering, though, if we should consider taking the island we already have towns on. Would a harbor connect accross the ocean to get us the resources needed? Also, I'd want to know how our troop strength compares to the English and Viking before deciding which to fight. There would probably be a lower flip risk with the Viking towns, but Berzerkers are frightening. Of course, the earlier they have their Golden Age, the better.

I may not be able to post again until tomorrow evening. (Comcast people apparently need to get into the upstairs neighbor's apartment before we'll have internet at home again. )

Good luck, Capt!

 

[leif erikson]

Capt Buttkick is right. There's no problem with trying for an eviction to jump units overseas. It isn't in any way related to the issues of teleportation by gifting cities. Of course, you do have to figure out if it will work, as well

Thanks Alan, you saved me having to send you a PM.

EDIT - The *only* reason I questioned was because it had to do with teleporting units as it seemed to me that to jump across a straight requires that you, well, teleport.

Nothing lost in giving it a try?

 

[leif erikson]

Question about FP "discs": I was under the impression (very likely erroneously) that you want a disc of cities closer to the FP than the first ring of cities around the palace for minimum corruption. In our world, that would mean cities at distance 3 or less. Hence my suggestion of the FP city build east of Detroit. Am I mistaken, or does the Detroit plan involve cities at the second lowest coruption level?

The disk size is determined by the distance of the closest city to your palace. Our ring is 4.x from our palace so the first disk around the FP will be 4.x. This is why, when I jump a palace, I try to space the cities farther in the new location as it increases the effectiveness of the FP core.

In checking things in CivAssist2, this was confirmed as our ring 1 cities have 18% corruption and both Athens and Beijing will also have 18% corruption if we build the FP in Detroit. You can try it by calling up the economy screen and setting the FP in Detroit and watch the numbers change.

As for opinions on a few other things:
-I'd vote to keep the Greeks around for nationalism and maybe even fission. As noted, we don't need many troops to eliminate the flip probability. This may require active protection, as someone destroyed their northernmost town sometime during my turnset (they were at war with the Romans and either the English or Japanese at the time).

This would be fine with me, as long as we neuter them to make sure there are no backstabs when we are actively engaged elsewhere. Leaving them in a single city should suffice, besides if theuy get off the island we could always declare war and demand their new city for peace.

-I like the gifting/taking strategy for getting a foothold on the English Island. I'm wondering, though, if we should consider taking the island we already have towns on. Would a harbor connect accross the ocean to get us the resources needed? Also, I'd want to know how our troop strength compares to the English and Viking before deciding which to fight. There would probably be a lower flip risk with the Viking towns, but Berzerkers are frightening. Of course, the earlier they have their Golden Age, the better.

By suggesting England first, I am trying to think *big*. We could prolly make some noise northeast but we can't go very far and the cities we capture will be right next to Rome and, thus, flip pressure from Rome's capital city. So the Army we pay for will languish because they have no where to go, except to act as flip resistance to Rome.

On the English Island, we have space to jump our palace and set up a larger core that we may derive more benefits from. This could also happen on the Viking Island, so if we're concerned about marauding Berserks, then perhaps we should start with the Vikings. The only problem I see is that the two cities they are likely to give us for peace are on the English Island.

Good luck Capt.

EDIT - Sorry Willow, forgot to answer your question on Harbors. They function as they normally do. We are currently trading dyes and gems to Rome for furs, iirc. So, they are working fine!!

 

[Capt Buttkick]

"Got it."
I'll try to play tomorrow evening or Sunday morning.

 

[leif erikson]

Have fun!!

And good hunting and favorable luck!

How about another leader?

EDIT - Forgot; beg, plead, grovel!!

 

[WillowBrook]

Thanks for the clarification, Leif!

Now was someone going to write us a spoiler so we can see what the other teams did? I'd volunteer, but I don't think I'll have time until, well, not sure when. But if people can wait about a month, I could probably do it.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks for the clarification, Leif!

Now was someone going to write us a spoiler so we can see what the other teams did? I'd volunteer, but I don't think I'll have time until, well, not sure when. But if people can wait about a month, I could probably do it.

You're welcome Willow. It took Alan about 6 games to get me straightened out on the inner workings of the FP! He has the patience of Job...

If no one says they'll do a spoiler by tomorrow, I will give it a try. I won't promise anything until Sunday night or Monday at the earliest.

EDIT - Just checked the score graphs and I think Team Wacken may be finished. Their last entry is 1160 AD and if you look at their territory graph, they've definately had a major war. The line goes nearly straight up. Must have been a blast!

 

[DJMGator13]

Looks good. Nice discussion.

I like Capts troop jump idea. But it might be very hard to setup.

We need more cities for our gold machine to work. I agree with Capt on switching to Rep right away.

If we feel we can finish the game without helicopters than there is no need to research past chivalry and there is no need to keep Greece in the game.

 

[DJMGator13]

Double post (making up for none yesterday )

Looking at Wacken's territory graph I think they researched to helicopters and then went crazy in a last 20 turn flurry of warfare. They doubled their territory over that time period.

Do we need to rethink our Greed plan, or do you think we've already stunted the tech pace in our game with all the oversea wars?

If we're staying with Greed I think we need our second gold core up and running and we need to start on England ASAP.

BTW, I haven't looked at the save yet.

I'm off to Gainesville for the Gator game, just a small tuneup before the real season starts next week when Tennessee comes to visit The Swamp.

Good luck Capt. It's time to push hard towards victory.

 

[leif erikson]

Double post (making up for none yesterday )

Looking at Wacken's territory graph I think they researched to helicopters and then went crazy in a last 20 turn flurry of warfare. They doubled their territory over that time period.

It must have been a free for all!

Do we need to rethink our Greed plan, or do you think we've already stunted the tech pace in our game with all the oversea wars?

I think we are committed. May as well give it a try and see how far it takes us?

If we're staying with Greed I think we need our second gold core up and running and we need to start on England ASAP.

I think you're right. We have only 100 turns until we hit Team Wacken's date. Doesn't sound like much time, atm. I would think we are behind in the tech curve. Thankfully, Willow got a Leader so we can build a FP this time.

I'm off to Gainesville for the Gator game, just a small tuneup before the real season starts next week when Tennessee comes to visit The Swamp.

Hope you enjoy the game.

Good luck Capt. It's time to push hard towards victory.

Good Luck Capt.
I think Gator's right, we need to get moving.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Turn 0 - 50 AD Set sci at 80% and hire a few scientists for Engineering next turn. Rome has it, but noone else so essential to get it for trades. St Louis get a few more workers instead of taxmen. We get 2 spt after waste. Change all spears to Rax except for Macao and Tientsin.
I'm a bit concerned at the amount of workers we have, mostly because we're going for the greed approach and we've got a lot of jungle to clear. Aim for the turn set will be to get worker count up.

IBT: Engineering --> Mono
Boston Market --> Horse

Turn 1 – 70 AD Get Mono for Engineering and 70 gold from Greece. Research set to Chivalry due in 16 turns at 50% sci and +20 gpt.
You say you want a revolution? Beatles rule so yes, please

Turn 2 - 90 AD Rush FP in Detroit.
New Orleans founded, starts Worker. Baltimore founded, starts worker.

IBT: Detroit FP --> Worker

Turn 3 – 110 AD Not much.

Turn 4 – 130 AD Denver founded, starts worker.

Turn 5 – 150 AD Rome has invention. Japan and Greece are at war.

IBT: We are now a republic

Turn 6 – 170 AD MM all towns. Sci rate down to 30% so we can start saving up gold while keeping steady pace for Chivalry. 10% lux to keep our major citites growing. Income: 72 gpt. Move horses in strike range of Corinth.

IBT: Shanghai Settler --> Worker.

Turn 8 – 190 AD Battle for Corinth:
Elite horse* Curse-breaker 5/5 vs. elite hoppie --> Horse wins with 2/5 left
4/4 horse vs. 3/3 hoppie --> looses no damage
4/4 horse vs. 3/3 hoppie --> looses, hoppie promotes to 2/4
4/4 horse vs. 2/4 hoppie --> retreats
4/4 horse vs. 2/4 hoppie --> looses, hoppie promotes to 2/5
4/4 horse vs. 2/5 hoppie --> looses, hoppie 1/5
5/5 horse vs. 1/5 hoppie --> wins, no damage, no leader, but that may have been too much
We take Corinth Start worker.
We have iron online
Embassy in Japan for 79 gold. Get alliance vs. Greece and Silks for Dyes, Gems and 7gpt. This means lux can stay at 10%, even with the recently aquired WW.

IBT: Beijing Worker --> Worker.
Wash Horse --> Horse.
Atlanta Market --> Duct.
Buffalo Worker --> Worker.
Tientsin Spear --> Rax.
Macao Spear --> Harbour. Once we get Astronomy (one way or the other, we have a trade route to this island with a harbour).
Detroit Worker --> Duct.

Turn 8 – 210 AD Cincinnati founded, starts Market. Move horses towards Delphi.

IBT: An elite horse retreats after being attacked near Delphi.

Turn 9 – 230 AD Move horses even nearer Delphi.

IBT: Beijing Worker --> Market.
Sparta Worker --> Harbour.
Miami Settler --> Worker

Turn 10 - 250 AD Early hand-off cause I've got lots to do before I need to turn in and it's my turn to get the kids up early tomorrow.


Notes: I'm thinking I'd like to fortify the horses on the mountain and wait for the Curse-breaker and the other healing horse outside Corinth to join up. Might possibly move another horse from Thermo to join the party. I think we should take out Greece now, they're not much use with the route we're taking now.

Firaxis 703, only beaten by Rome at this stage. Jason 451.

 

[leif erikson]

Excellent work Capt.!!

We've got a FP, Iron and we're moving along!

Roster:
Nemesis - UP
Gator - On Deck
Bluebox
Leif
Willow
Capt. - Just Played!

Guess I'd better go work on a spoiler?

 

[WillowBrook]

Has Nemesis been around? Probably Gator should be ready to claim the game as soon as 24 hours is up.

So what's the next strategy? Foothold in England, right? How soon to we want to declare on either the Vikings or England? It could take a while before they'll give us peace and a town. And which one do we do we declare on?

As for England itself, I agree it looks like a good target. The only iron is in the south and may not even be connected. Problem is there are no size-1 towns on that island of any civ except, of all possibilities, Rome.

I must also comment one more time on the location of our FP. Detroit? Of all US city names, Detroit is not the place for a palace of any sort. I move that we rename the city to something more appropriate. Unfortunately, I have no brilliant ideas at the moment. But I'm certainly open to suggestions.

 

[DJMGator13]

Has Nemesis been around? Probably Gator should be ready to claim the game as soon as 24 hours is up.

Not since the Aug 24th according to his profile. I'll still wait to officially grab it to give him a chance and to allow us some discussion.

I agree with leif in that we are committed to the Greed plan based on the tech pace in our game.

I'll try to look at the save and post some comments later today.