[BTS] Shadow Game: Tokugawa

[Arcanior]

Hi,

I've been following some of the forum shadow games, watching Lain's videos, etc, and would be really interested in trying one of my own. I did so a few years back, but real life caught up with me then and I had to abandon it, sadly. Now I'm more confident that I can actually actively follow through and keep it alive.

I started on Monarch, which is my usual playing difficulty, with a random Continents map, Standard size and speed, no huts, no events. As a leader I usually roll randomly, but chose Tokugawa this time, since I've heard tell he is regarded as a good leader for shadow games, as his traits don't really affect strategy all that much (or at least not as strongly as say, IND or FIN).

Attached is the start.

Spoiler :

A plains deer, together with the fog south, means tundra and ice to the south. I don't think there's any realistically interesting option apart from SiP... Maybe if I move my warrior on the sheep, I might see something that could compel me to settle 1SW, but that would have to mean VERY strong tiles, since there'd be tundra and ice in my BFC to the south, so probably not doing that. I do think that warrior move has the most chance of actually revealing something interesting (at least more than moving him 1 NE), so I'll probably do that, and if nothing interesting shows up, SiP.

Looking forward to this!

Edit: I forgot to mention tech: it seems relatively obvious to go for Hunting at first. I need it for the deer anyhow, and it opens up AH, which I will be teching sooner rather than later. Even so, I'll do the usual skipping for the first 5 turns, and then actually finish it. A start with a relatively low amount of food and forests means it's probably better to tech AH before going Mining => BW, but we'll re-evaluate once Hunting is in.

 

[Fippy]

Hiya,

Maybe if I move my warrior on the sheep, I might see something that could compel me to settle 1SW, but that would have to mean VERY strong tiles, since there'd be tundra and ice in my BFC to the south, so probably not doing that.

This line of thinking is very questionable
Some tundra tiles in your bfc are unimportant, there could be 8 and i would still take them if i get a wet corn in return (with this start).

If you see a better food tile west than deer after moving your warrior on sheep, a move would probably make sense.
You are not starting with hunting as well, so deer could be abandoned easily (as weak food tile).

 

[Arcanior]

Thanks for the feedback, Fippy! I did move my Warrior on the sheep, and saw a whole lot of nothing on the plains to the west, and so I settled in place.

Spoiler :

I'll make sure to switch to working the deer once my border pops, and start on Hunting in the meantime. I think there's mostly coast to the east, if I look at the fog... While waiting for my worker, I'll explore mostly north and northeast, to scout for potential sites for new cities. This does look like a relatively poor start, though... I'm hoping to get some horses or metals in my capital's BFC now, at least, otherwise I'm stuck with essentially two OK tiles (the sheep and the deer) and three medium tiles (the riverside grasslands). I suppose we'll have to make do, though...

 

[Fippy]

Weak start yup, but those are good for shadow games.
I guess unless you find strong AH tiles around, you should tech Hunting - Mining - BW (and mine your sheep).

 

[krikav]

What a lovely game!
I echo most of what Fippy said, hunting is the right way to go most likely, but it's not certain that AH next is best.

If I would have played, I would probably have wanted to move settler up on the wine. Would have gone E with the intent of then up on the wine.
I would then probably have spotted coast and made a run SE into the plains forest NE of the deer.
I think thats what I would have done anyway.

SiP is perfecly fine, and I suspect that there is hidden resources that will pop.
Looking forward to a overview image at T5 when borders pop, and there is time to commit to a tech!

 

[krikav]

(I would set the warrior on a NW->NW->NW path, to increase chances of meeting a AI, and also scouting along that river which looks nice.)

 

[Tobiyogi]

Judging from the opening screen, I would also SIP. Hunting --> Mining for sure, maybe pottery before BW. Three mines should be productive enough and on monarch, the happy cap allows more growth, so why not very early cottages? (one of Tokugawas benefits)
After the 3. mine, while the city will already be producing a settler at size 4, the worker could start to road a bit and then cottage. So when settler is ready, the capitol can immediately start to work the first cottage.

 

[krikav]

@Tobiyogi
If we had some floodplains, maybee I would agree, but I would not want to postpone BW (or perhaps AH) in favour of pottery here. Even if there isn't that many chops, it's important to get them early. If we are stuck between the icecap and the coast, getting expansion done earlier rather than later might be crucial.

 

[Tobiyogi]

@Tobiyogi
If we had some floodplains, maybee I would agree, but I would not want to postpone BW (or perhaps AH) in favour of pottery here. Even if there isn't that many chops, it's important to get them early. If we are stuck between the icecap and the coast, getting expansion done earlier rather than later might be crucial.

Agreed. My thinking was adapted to monarch level where AI needs much longer to build a 2. city and where our happy cap makes cottaging (instead of whipping a settler) more attractive. it's speculation from my side, maybe the earlier 2. city will bring more benefit.

 

[Arcanior]

I played until turn 5. Turns out krikav's intuition was right, and the coast was not a bad option, since there appears to be fish:

Spoiler :

It's impossible to get the fish in the first ring now, so that's probably not the best site to settle first. Over by the river, we didn't meet anybody yet, but there's wheat, stone, some riverside grasslands and a whole lot of desert. I should probably settle the (dry) wheat first, so I'll move my warrior away from the stone and towards the east and northeast to check out that site more. Getting the wheat and the stone in one city seems less than ideal, again since both would be in the second ring. We still have time to decide that, however.

I'll continue Hunting and then move on to Mining. I'll evaluate the decision to continue to either Pottery or BW after I finish Mining, although it's likely that BW will be the way to go. I really don't want to delay my Settler by too long, though I'll need a somewhat decent spot to settle first...

 

[krikav]

SW of wheat looks very nice. 5 forests in first ring is nice.
With wheat in sight, I would start to abandon the option of going AH early, better wait untill agri is in, for the discount.
Mining is good, to mine the sheep (and possibly another hill).
SW of wheat will not be insta-connected by the river, I would road sheep and NW of sheep.

Oh, and regarding my intuition, if it was I who played, there would be at tops a whale out there.

If I was playing, warrior would go to the forested hill 2W of the wheat, nice fogbusting location.
I think you can afford to scout more on this difficulty, I would move two more steps NW to get a view from that hill.

 

[Arcanior]

Alright, this time I played until turn 15:

Spoiler :

I agree that 1SW of the wheat is probably my best bet for a first city. I have to admit that I don't really tend to account for the number of forests in a settling site, so that's something I should probably be more aware of. I've finished Hunting and Mining and moved on to BW. That way, the first settler can be aided by at least one chop. After BW, I think Agriculture is due, since it also gives bonuses for AH and Pottery, apart from its necessity for the wheat.

With regards to worker 'micro', I realize I should build one turn of road on the grassland SE of my cap and then move on to the deer, so as not to waste a turn while moving. I will first build a camp on the deer, then mine the sheep. Then probably a road on the sheep and chopping the forest NW of the capital for the settler I'll be building by then.

With regards to my warrior: I briefly checked out the coast, which revealed... well, nothing. I did get attacked by a lion in the hills, though, so I'll put him back on the forested hill 2W of the wheat to recover and fogbust, as krikav noted. I realize that on a higher difficulty, I probably couldn't have afforded checking out the northern hills, and should have started fogbusting the second city site earlier... On Monarch, this might not have been too bad, unless I'm mistaken?

Something I'm really uncertain about: what to do with my second warrior (in 8 turns)? The area due west of the cap is most likely tundra, north doesn't look too promising either... Should I scout out the area around the stone?

 

[krikav]

Yes, forests are kind of important for a city site, especially if you go early BW. Good to keep this in mind in the future.
Also, I think you are underestimating the value of rivers abit...? Each riverside tile has 1 commerce, in effect they are 3 yield tles everywhere.

This brings me to what I would do with the second warrior, I would make sure to scout abit on the rivers eastern side, don't worry too much about the tundra, cities are at size 2-5 for most of the early game (which is the most crucial part). So tundra sites might be stellar if there are like silver/fur/deer and such.
2W 1S of the sheep would be insta-connected with capital, and would have the option to borrow the sheep from the turn that city is settled.

Cities don't need 20+ good tiles to be worthwhile, I constantly settle cities with huge overlap and with half the tiles being peaks/coast/ice/tundra/desert.
It doesn't matter at all, just as long as they have something going for them, and that might perhaps just be 3 good tiles.


You are spot on, that it would have been impossible to scout that northern region on higher difficulties. Or... the risk wouldn't have been worth it. The first warrior/scout has one prime task, and that is to find a good place to settle the second city. Once that is found, priority is to keep that area fogbusted.

Gold star for noticing the worker micro! All these small parts add up together.

 

[Fippy]

Yep the wheat area is very good actually (despite missing more resis).
I would build 1 scout here now, warrior only on deity where barbs become a problem so early.
You can scout at double speed, or savely at 1 tile/turn, there are no further away spots visible that would need warrior guarding already.

Putting your warrior 2w of wheat until settled would make sense (while the scout will unfog more land), it's close but you never know
Coast fish is very nice, i would check that area first for more seafood. Sometimes tundra and ice also have furs which would be valuable for happy.
City3 1s of deer would need a monument, but there are forests for that & a workboat.

 

[Arcanior]

I played on until BW was in, which was turn 27:

Spoiler :

I forgot to mention earlier that Buddhism and Hinduism had already been founded; Hinduism was founded pretty late at 3080 BC, which makes me think both might have been founded by the same AI.

I followed Fippy's advice and built a scout. I'm usually not much of a scout-builder, but in this scenario, I don't think it was a bad idea. I think it's good to have a unit that can scout at a somewhat higher speed now, and with a somewhat higher security once actual barbarians start spawning. My scout uncovered another river and a deer in the southwest. I know what you guys mean about not needing too much good tiles in one place, but here there's really only one decent tile available... Although I'm thinking to found a city (after the wheat city) maybe 1N or 1NE of the new deer. It would be instantly connected to the capital, which, as krikav noted, is a boon.

After the Scout I produced another warrior. I was considering slowbuilding a settler at size 2, but I decided not to do it, especially since BW wasn't in yet, so I'd have to wait before being able to assist with chops. In two turns, I'm at size 3 though. I'm still uncertain whether to start slowbuilding then, or wait until size 4 and consider 2 pop-whipping it. This is what I usually do, although with a relatively food-poor start... I don't know. I think I'd probably let it grow and 2pop-whip it.

On the way back to the sheep, my worker finished the (not extremely useful, but free) road. I mined the sheep, and am now debating whether to start chopping into a settler immediately or road ahead to the new city. I think starting chopping sooner rather than later is the best move here, though I'm eager on your input.

Tech-wise, Agriculture seems like a given. Afterwards, there's either Pottery or AH, or perhaps even Mysticism if I would go for founding a city near the fish. Since we didn't have any bronze near the capital, I'd probably go for AH and hope for horses. Early granaries sound important too, though... What do you guys think?

 

[Fippy]

There are 2 good sites, wheat and fish
You can send your new warrior south and check if more stuff is around there, but i would already plan for myst, fishing and pottery after Agri.
Not sure if you looked at the ice but it's unimportant, fish city can grab some river tiles from Kyoto and turns into a must-have place on this map.

Early barb defense is not needed on Monarch (horsies), has time until you estabilished stuff like cottages.
Eventually a monument (and myst) can be skipped if you are lucky and get more seafood with first ring possibility (seafood often comes in bunches), and settle for a library there (with 1 or 2 chops + whipping) instead, which takes more time but will be needed as "2 scientists city".

 

[Arcanior]

@Fippy: Just for clarification, with a "2 scientists city", do you mean a city that runs basically ONLY (or nearly only) 2 scientists?

If the fish site takes priority over the second deer site, I definitely should tech Mysticism first, as you say. With help from one or maybe two chops, I could then get out a monument and workboat, presumably in that order.

What would you guys do regarding growing the city to size 3 or 4 before building a settler?

 

[Fippy]

Not only, but seafood cities are often the best places for creating great scientists.
Just an idea, finding a first ring seafood would make it possible to delay that border pop, and wait for a library instead of monument.
Looks like myst would only be needed for 1 city so far.

I would suggest a size 3 settler, and mining the wine tile next.
4 + 1 are worth improving imo, and perfectly fine while building settlers or workers.
Finishing the sheep road first, hmm..one of those borderline decisions. Fits well as connection between Kyoto and wheat city, guess i would do so.

Whipping looks bad here, with only +4.

 

[Arcanior]

I continued playing until T35, when Agriculture popped. I sent my warriors to go fogbusting in the south, using my scout to actually, well... scout.

Exploration-wise: Hurrah, extra seafood in the first ring! There's a crab 4S1E of the capital, which makes settling that spot all the more attractive.

Spoiler :

That means that, as said, it's probably better to postpone Mysticism for now, since I can start on a workboat once that city is settled. Even so, I'll settle the wheat site first, and the crab city only second. There's also fish 3S of the crab, but unfortunately there's no way to get it without ruining the first fish.

Tech-wise, I'm on the fence between Pottery and AH. Pottery means earlier granaries - I don't know how smart it would be to cottage the riverside grasslands in Kyoto, rather than farming them at some point, though. Furthermore, AH would get me a +2 food in the capital with the Sheep pasture, and possibly reveal horses (I mean, there have to be SOME strategic resources out here, right?). Being honest, I do think granaries are just too important, though, especially on this map.

I still haven't met any AI's, by the way, which is starting to get weird. Maybe there's just very few of them on this continent, or none south of the inevitable jungle around the equator? We'll see.

What do you guys think regarding the next build in Kyoto? I think a worker would probably be a good idea to assist with chops for settlers (and a granary in city 2). I could then build a settler afterwards, still keeping Kyoto at size 3. Alternatively, a settler first for the crab-fish site, followed by my second worker. I think worker first is better, though; it could arrive at about the same time as Pottery and actively start chopping for settlers and infrastructure.

 

[krikav]

Feedback for the BW checkpoint:

I would not whip this capital, slow-build at pop3 is likely the best way to go.
Growing to size 4 takes a looong time, and then growing back to size3 at least would also take a long time.
During this time of growth and re-growth, the capital will generate alot of hammers and it's unlikely that they can be put to good use. (No granary or library build yet)

Situation is totally different with a 1hammer city center, growing on say, a wet corn and two unimproved floodplains.

Really difficult to advise regarding road/mines, thats small decisions that you consider every turn, but I think I would mine sheep, then road the two tiles toward the wheat city, or perhaps even 3 tiles, so that that city can be insta-settled (Settler walking on 3 roads all the way), after that I would probably chop one forest and then mine the grassland hill.

Grow to size 5 eventually with the aid of deer+sheep+lake+grassland hill, then stagnate at size 4/5 for a few thousand years more or less only slow-building workers and settlers.