Shadowgame - Help me move up to Immortal!

[Peacefanatic]

Hello Civ 4 friends,

I have heard about shadowgames and it made me very interested in doing one for learning purpouses.
English is not my native language and this is my first time ever trying to do a shadowgame so please excuse me in advance for any mistakes. I'll try my best to make a good post.

Before I begin just a few things about my games. I play on Emperor and I love Pangaea map types. I hate the culture mechanics and I believe my worst skill is handling economy right. Also I like going to war a lot and I never build any naval stuff besides work boats and navy to protect my work boats. I don't know why but I always forget to pre-chop settlers/workers and usually just build them normally. I never check the financial advisor or any advisor to be honest. Is it too bad? I never check my research rate as well, I just keep it either 0% or 100%.

So with no further delay the settings of the game are: Pangea, Standard Size and Speed, Temperate Climate, Low Sea level and No tribal Villages. Random events are on because I think they add fun to the game. Additionally I have choosen random leader and random enemies. I have already played from 4000BC to 1000BC and if there are any commentaries and interest in this post I'll be really happy to play the game to the end.

The RNG system have assigned me the glorious Shaka of Zulu. Agressive and Expansive. Initial techs are Agriculture and Hunting. I am not a big fan of agressive but I love Ikhandas and Impis (for choking). Also the 25% faster worker production doesn't seem to help me a lot. Agriculture is awesome and Hunting not so much for me but I like starting with a scout.

I have not regenerated the map and this is my initial start:

Spoiler :

No food or early commerce resource on sight. Not very exciting. Since I have decided not to regenerate the map for this thread I moved my scout to the northwest to see what's happening there. I choose to move that way because to the east looked all plain tiles to me.
After moving my scout and settler I get lucky and find a cow, two ivory and one marble (all on my future BFC).

3960BC: Ulundi (capital) is founded
Tech research order is AH - Mining - BW - TW - Pottery
Build order is Worker - Warrior - Warrior - Warrior (City Size 3 now) - Settler

After some scouting I meet my two neighbours (Hannibal to the south and Saladin to the west). I plan to have 4 cities by 1000bc and beeline (kind of) Construction and HBR (elephants) to eliminate my first enemy (not decided who yet) from the game.

2760BC: BW is discovered and I find three sources of cooper near me. Since I'll have cooper really soon I decide not to research Archery. Also on this date I have an opportunity to steal a worker from Hannibal and decide to take my chances (sorry the screenshot is so bad).

Spoiler Worker Steal :

My worker steal succeds and I am able to safely travel him back to my capital.
I have learned from watching AbsoluteZero videos that when there are only 2 archers on the enemy city and/or one escorting his settler, you can choke your adversary without having to worry about getting your Warrior killed. So that's what I do and prevent Hannibal from expanding for a while.

Spoiler Choking Hannibal :

2440BC: uMgungundlovu (2nd city) is founded claiming cooper in its FC

Spoiler :

uMgungundlovu has 7 grassland tiles and one source of corn (outside my FC), so I elect it to be one of my Cottage cities that will help support my empire

2280BC: After having lots of fun choking Hannibal, stealing a worker from him and killing his scout, my brave warrior gets killed and I sue for peace. To be honest if I had been more careful I could have saved my warrior from death. Also I made the mistake of making the peace treaty instead of just ending the war and now I have to wait 10 turns to harass him again. Since by this time I was just about to have an Impi, that was indeed a bad move.

2000BC: By now I have 3 workers, 2 cities, 3 warriors, 1 Impi, 1 scout, 3 turns for 2nd settler and 3 turns away from discovering writing. I have already met 5 of 6 AIs.

Spoiler 2000BC :

From the screenshot you can see there is a gold to the west. I could have rushed and settled my first city there. But it was so far away that I have decided it was not worth it. If I was playing a creative leader maybe I would have been more inclined to take it. What do you guys think?

At this time I want to settle two more cities ASAP.
To the northeast my GP farm is going to be settled, which will be my 3rd city. It has one wheat and 3 flood plains, so by working only 4 tiles I can have 18 food, which is good for 5 specialists. It also has 6 forests, which is more then enough to chop the NE with the marble in my capital.

Spoiler GP Farm :

To the south I have planned my HE city. It's not ideal but I have not found any better place with a food resource and mines. Also I am really in doubt if I settle in that grassland tile marked in the screenshot or one tile to the west so I can start working that cow right away. If I settle in the grassland tile I will have one more green tile to work a workshop once I have state property.

Spoiler HE City :

The two enemies I have close to me are Hannibal and Saladin. None of them have found any religion or Wonder yet, and since Saladin is protective and I am already with a bad diplo with Hannibal I believe Hannibal is going to be the best target to try to eliminate first.

1920BC: Writing is discovered
1840BC: Nobamba, my second city, is founded
1800BC: I declare war on Hannibal again and I steal a worker from him with my Impi. Saladin, sadly my neighbour, is the only AI pleased with Hannibal and I don't like to get -1 diplo with him again. But stealing another worker from him and all the fun from choking him is worth it for me
1720 BC: Joao II discovers Alphabet and I tradd Pottery for Archery with him, whom by the way is my other close neighbour
1480BC: Hannibal only has 2 cities and I am keeping him from doing anything. To be honest I did not made any math to see how much I am paying for my troops on his territory to decide if its worth it, but sure is exciting to do it. His second city only has one archer defending it and my axeman has 59,23% chance of conquering it. Honestly I am in doubt if I take the chance. Also I have wrongly promoted my axeman to Woodsman I, if I had waited and gave him the cover promotion my chances would be higher. Nonetheless I like to gamble and attack his sole archer.

Spoiler Gamble :

I WON!!!! I WON!!! But WTF!!! I dunno what happened and his city is automatically razed. I was not given the option to keep it. At first I get mad at the game but sincerely it was for the best, the city was too far away from my capital and I don't think the maineantance was worth it. In spite of that does anyone have any idea why I was not given the option to keep it?

1240BC: 3rd city (Bulawayo) is founded
1120BC: Math is discovered. Joao II who is the only AI with Alphabet already has it so this tech is totally worthless for trading. I start researching Currency and I can see it will take forever. When will I finally have Alphabet? My goal to have Construction and HBR to attack with Catapults + Elephants seems so far away. Also looking now I don't know why I researched Currency instead of Mansory + Construction. Maybe I was too annoyed of having a slow tech research.
1080BC: I killed one of Hannibals archer with my Axeman
1000BC: By now I have 4 cities, 6 workers, 3 warriors, 1 axeman, 2 impis and 1 archer on domestic territory. I am still at war and have only one axeman on Hannibals territory keeping him from doing anything in his sole city. Unfortunately his capital is on a hill with 3 archers on it. My odds of taking it are very low and I don't want just yet to chop 10 axeman and lose half of them to conquer his city and eliminate him from the game. I don't want as well to pay a really high maineanteance to have this far away city.
By now my research rate is 50% with one gold surplus.
There are lots of land to the west and north that are all free to take but are far away from my capital so I don't want to produce any settlers yet. Below I'll post two screenshots of them. Do you guys see any good spots?
What are your commentaries so far? What have I done wrong and what should I do by now?
For you guys, what are are the minimum desirable city size? I like to claim spots which will allow me to have a population of 10. Only if there are gold and/or silver I'll plan to have much smaller cities. Is that right?

Thanks in advance for all your help! I am looking forward to see your posts.

 

[Peacefanatic]

I could not upload more pictures on the post so below are two screenshots of the land available on 1000BC

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Pangaea]

In spite of that does anyone have any idea why I was not given the option to keep it?

If a city has never been size 2, it will get auto-razed (unless you tick for the relevant option when creating the game).

The main benefit with shadow games is to get advice before you play a turnset. Then more advice after. It's a back-and-forth process where you take in information and then try to play with that in mind. This thread is more like a write-up of a game already played. Think I would suggest to roll a new save and post that here, and use that map instead for an actual shadow/learning game. Too much has happened by 1000BC. Those early turns and decisions are crucial.

 

[Peacefanatic]

If a city has never been size 2, it will get auto-razed (unless you tick for the relevant option when creating the game).

I did not know that. Thanks for the info.

The main benefit with shadow games is to get advice before you play a turnset.

I totally misunderstood the mechanics of shadowgames, I apologize. So I should create a new save and play from the beginning with the adivce from other players?

This thread is more like a write-up of a game already played.

Did you read how I played my game so far? If so what did you think?

Think I would suggest to roll a new save and post that here

I will do that as soon as I get home from work.

Thanks for your answer Pangaea.

 

[lymond]

Oh..wow..you did not know about size 1 auto-raze?

After moving my scout and settler I get lucky and find a cow, two ivory and one marble (all on my future BFC

Ha..I would not necessarily say you were "lucky". At least cow is grass and there is lots of green. Ulundi can still be cottaged.

Yes, shadow games are getting advice before you play and then playing short turnsets...rinse/repeat.

However, you seem to be doing fairly well so far. I don't have much criticism of your decisions so far...granted I'm missing some details since you've played quite far without advice. But your city placement seems okay. Harassing Hannibal with IMpis also good.

My one comment is I'm not sure I'd be thinking about HE and NE cities right now. I mean it's okay to have some idea of what you want a city to be but you don't have to commit to it. Not sure I like cow city at all for HE and...well...HE has to be unlocked (granted your choking impi will probably get the point or that axe just did taking the city at that odds) I tend to use HE for lots of fail gold if I have marble..you can get tons of gold this way. Eventually completing it somewhere. NE too. But point is you don't always have to commit to those NWs or even build them.

The gold is desert gold and a bit far away. Probably like to see that area scouted a bit more to see if more food there. May settle it at some point soon.

At four cities right now and ivory, I'd be putting most of my focus on getting Elepults online asap and reaking havoc on the known world.

0% or 100% is the way to go for much of the early game until you get good beaker modifiers setup and can get gold.

Oh.I'd say the one thing here is an earlier library with scientist running for academy or maybe even maths bulb to get elies online faster.

But yeah, certainly play this one out, but post a new game for shadow. Really when it comes to Civ IV the critical stuff is the early game decisions...that's what gets folks most when moving up levels.

 

[sampsa]

Things you could improve on:

• food to the 1st ring! Having unclaimed 5 tile so close to the capital by T75 seems wrong to me. 3W of cap is a good spot.
• worker management. Improve food, chop, cottage, connect in this order will get you very far. Mines are very situational and the one in Bulawayo is redundant. You have 5 useless roads (NW of cap, 3 towards Nobamba as it's connected via river and one on southern cow) while chopping would have generated 5 per turn.
• granaries. Expansive granary is a very powerful building and you should've built them asap in every city, grow and whip (mostly settlers/workers).

I think currency is not a great choice now as an elephant war would be a very powerful play. You have lots of forests to burn and can swiftly gather quite an army. All in all you are doing good, but could be doing even better with heavy early chopping.

 

[sampsa]

T75

Spoiler :

I didn't bother to go with worker stealing which certainly puts me a bit behind on OP's game. Food on the 1st ring, granaries asap and now growing and working cottages (10 worked cottages already). Saved a lot money while building a library and now going math-masonry-constr-HBR. Probably starting the attack without elephants. Building up melee already and will chop out some cats at construction. Cities are growing into unhappiness, which is not an issue at all. That pop is very useful for whipping later. Now roading to both Sal and Hans for foreign trade routes and the possibility of trading for -resources. Hannibal will certainly be the first victim.

 

[Gumbolt]

City placement is my big issue here. Corn and pigs nearby and you have not settled to include them in inner ring. Sampsa city placement looks much better. You want food resources in first ring. Probably why your 1000bc progress is slower.

Get used to using binary research. E.g 100% tax or 100% science.

I assume you switched to slavery?

 

[sampsa]

Dunno if OP is continuing his game, so I'll post an update after first war.

T104

Spoiler :

Attack T94 with 5 cats + 6 melee, which is easily enough to take Hadrumetum and walk straight towards capital. He is stacking his forces in Hippo and I hope to lure them to my territory for easy pickings.

He didn't move out of Hippo, but as it lacks cultural defensive bonus taking it was easy at the cost of 1 or 2 cats. 10 turns later he is knocked out. The war was so easy that it makes me wonder if choking him really is better than capturing 4 decent cities later? Just switched to HR in order to keep whipping and ETA on feudalism ~10 turns. Maybe start a golden age to switch to vassalage, but mostly feudalism is for the ability to take vassals. Engineering is the next key tech, but of course it's a bit far away and I think I can just capitulate everyone even without it.

Joao just declared on Saladin and I'm undecided on which one to attack first.

 

[Peacefanatic]

Oh..wow..you did not know about size 1 auto-raze?

I had no idea
It happened in my games so rarely and only in Barb cities that I always thought it had something to do with being a barbarian city

However, you seem to be doing fairly well so far.

I'm happy you don't think I suck. What are your thoughts on all the land to the west? Also do you think it's worth pursuing The Oracle when you start with marble? To be honest I never try to build The Oracle. I'm not much of a Wonder guy.

My one comment is I'm not sure I'd be thinking about HE and NE cities right now. I mean it's okay to have some idea of what you want a city to be but you don't have to commit to it.

If I have marble I always like to plan ahead those two cities. But if I am able to go to war early and grab a better spot I'll definetely move it. You don't like planning those two cities?

Not sure I like cow city at all for HE

But how can I have a high hammer city without food to support it? What am I missing here? How are your HE cities usually?

Oh.I'd say the one thing here is an earlier library with scientist running for academy or maybe even maths bulb to get elies online faster.

Good advice. Thanks again lymond!! You are always of great help

food to the 1st ring! Having unclaimed 5 tile so close to the capital by T75 seems wrong to me. 3W of cap is a good spot.

After reading your advice I am never doing this again unless I'm playing a creative leader.

Mines are very situational

Don't you think they are essential in the early game? I always try to build a city that is able to have at least 15 in the early game. Is this wrong?

I think currency is not a great choice now as an elephant war would be a very powerful play. You have lots of forests to burn and can swiftly gather quite an army. All in all you are doing good, but could be doing even better with heavy early chopping.

Thanks again for all your advice. I downloaded your game and you are doing way better then me.

I assume you switched to slavery?

Thanks for your advice Gumbolt. I always switch to slavery very early and usually keep on that for most of the game

Dunno if OP is continuing his game, so I'll post an update after first war.

I just opened your game in Civ and you are doing really well. 8 cities 275 BC and lots of land to settle. Also I see that Joao II and Saladin are in war against each other, that's great for you since they are your two close neighbours. Did you bribe one of them on doing that?

Also what are your plans now? To play peacefully or to keep warring and declare on someone else?

 

[Peacefanatic]

Dunno if OP is continuing his game, so I'll post an update after first war.

sampsa what are your thoughts on all the land to the west?

The other day I was reading an article about helper cities that are only built to help work cottages from other cities. Do you do that? I never do that. Is it good? What do you do with those cities when its uselless to work other cities cottages?

 

[sampsa]

After reading your advice I am never doing this again unless I'm playing a creative leader.

Yep, creative is awesome as it allows you to place your cities more "optimally".

Don't you think they are essential in the early game? I always try to build a city that is able to have at least 15 in the early game. Is this wrong?

Mines are not essential, but can be OK under some circumstances (if there is nothing better). Whipping is often better than stagnating and working mines, just because of the way the whip works (i.e. you get 30 per pop and growing a size costs way way less assuming you have a granary). So working a cottage might bring as much than working a mine, but brings significantly more , too.

Thanks again for all your advice. I downloaded your game and you are doing way better then me.

Yes, mostly due to emphasizing food and whipping.

I just opened your game in Civ and you are doing really well. 8 cities 275 BC and lots of land to settle. Also I see that Joao II and Saladin are in war against each other, that's great for you since they are your two close neighbours. Did you bribe one of them on doing that?

Also what are your plans now? To play peacefully or to keep warring and declare on someone else?

Didn't bribe. I think I can win the game on this level by just attacking closest AIs with cats+elephants+melee and taking capitulation immediately when available and move to the next victim. Longbows don't stop 20cats+20units. Sadly I have no time to play for a week or so.

sampsa what are your thoughts on all the land to the west?

The other day I was reading an article about helper cities that are only built to help work cottages from other cities. Do you do that? I never do that. Is it good? What do you do with those cities when its uselless to work other cities cottages?

"We'd rather win the game, thank you". So I don't think I should be expanding to that land, since I can take mature cities from AI. If I went peaceful, I could settle a few more if they claim strong -tiles and resources that are useful for the whole empire.

Some overlap with your capital is good, since capital can take all those cottages later (at bureaucracy since it's a huge bonus) and other cities can be whipped. So to an extent it is a good idea.

 

[lymond]

sampsa what are your thoughts on all the land to the west?

The other day I was reading an article about helper cities that are only built to help work cottages from other cities. Do you do that? I never do that. Is it good? What do you do with those cities when its uselless to work other cities cottages?

Well, I think the land to the West is something that can be explored eventually, especially around the gold. Not sure I see anything special otherwise until you explore. Again, my priority if I were playing would be Elepults asap.

The deal on mine is that your primary production is coming from food and chopping, so growth is more important early. Yeah, eventually you are going to build some mines, but far more important things early.

Yeah, sure it is okay to have some idea where one might build NE or HE. My point was not necessarily commit to those ideas so early. You may very well capture much better cities for the purpose. Like your NE city idea is not that appealing to me. And the HE idea is marginal at best, but not bad if all you got.

Helper cities are about tile sharing and overlap with the cap. Often these cities are still pretty good on there own, but I've settled an overlap city that on occasion is not much good other than growing cottages for cap early...but may get better later game. You still want to settle good cities, but overlap is a good thing for more than one reason.

And sometimes a cap start with too much food anyway, so sharing it with near cities is good.

 

[Pangaea]

The other day I was reading an article about helper cities that are only built to help work cottages from other cities. Do you do that? I never do that. Is it good? What do you do with those cities when its uselless to work other cities cottages?

Haven't followed this thread very carefully, so this is a more general comment. Helper cities like that can be good around the capital. Especially if they have their own food source, or can (at times) borrow food from the capital. These cities then help to grow cottages for the capital, and when you have more happiness and the capital can grow, the capital will gradually overtake the (now fairly mature) cottages. That way you get more bang for your buck for Buro, as that boosts both hammers and commerce.

Especially on higher difficulty settings, one shouldn't underestimate the maintenance aspect either, especially in the early game. Settling cities far from your capital will be expensive, so if you can settle 2-3 cities 3-4 tiles from your capital, your empire will be pretty efficient.

Beginners tend to think that all cities must be able to grow massive, and ideally have all its 21 tiles for itself, maybe imagining a patchwork of BFCs around the map with no overlap. But until the very, very end-game, few cities will be big enough to work all these tiles, so overlap is good. Some tiles will also be crap and not worth working, and you can of course hire specialists instead of working a farmed plains or something like that.

It's a good tool to have in your toolbox -- whether it fits in this particular map or not.

 

[leif erikson]

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