Shall we play a game?

[Pete2006]

Looks like you were ~200 years behind me on the war but were able to win the Liberalism race. Also Hatty is much more advanced in my game than yours and Fred is much more advanced in yours.

Good job.

I think I still have a chance for a domination win if I can vassalize Freddy. Does anyone know how to get a vassal peacefully?

 

[50_dollar_bag]

I've had a few peaceful vassals in my time, but I never negotiated them myself they've always come up with the offer. And the thing about it is they can pull out whenever they want(after 20 turns?) so it's never a guaranteed way to help win domination. Usually it's a weak civ that's friendly with you that'll make the offer.
Can't help you much beyond that unfortunately

 

[CivSetä]

I have been wondering what went wrong in my game and I think that game speed must had some affection. I had a tech lead over Hatty before I attacked Monty, and that's the main reason I kept producing units. I already had enough units to wipe out Monty, but I thought that I'd get grenadiers (which Hatty didn't have at that point) before war ends and I was right, I had them. But the problem is that Hatty has artillery now, which means she's not far away from rocketry. And even my CR grenadiers can easily beat rifles, they are almost useless against SAM infantry which Hatty will get soon. And my situation is not better even if I get steel soon, because of artillery bonus against other siege weapons. I have a "image" of the game in my head and it's running on marathon, hence I always have problems on faster speeds, I can't compare building and research times etc. efficiently enough.

Good luck Pete!

 

[Pete2006]

It is tough to change game speeds. I used to play marathon and it took me a while to get used to normal speed.

Since I missed Lib. I need to go for the Taj to make up for it. If Hatty or Mansa build it then it'll just put me further behind.

I think I'll take Moscow and then go after Roosevelt for the GLighthouse and then tech to free markets. That should keep me in the tech race. Washington also has a big food surplus so I can finally get a GP farm going.

Then I can return to Cathy with grenadiers. I think I'll have to wait until I have infantry to attack Hatty since she'll have cavs by the time I get to her.

 

[Pete2006]

I've had a few peaceful vassals in my time, but I never negotiated them myself they've always come up with the offer. And the thing about it is they can pull out whenever they want(after 20 turns?) so it's never a guaranteed way to help win domination. Usually it's a weak civ that's friendly with you that'll make the offer.
Can't help you much beyond that unfortunately

Then I'll just land some units next to his capital near the end of the game and capitulate him through war.

 

[Pete2006]

Short version: I hate the vassal system. It makes absolutely no sense!!

Long version: This game just got a lot more difficult...

I started off with some trades. I need guilds to get to economics. Roosevelt doesn't have horses so I should have to worry about bringing pikes or elephants when I invade. OR WILL I???

I meet Mansa and sign an open borders agreement. Hatty is more advanced than he is but he already hates me. I better switch to free religion/free markets quickly.

I marched in to Moscow and took the pathetic city. The culture was pretty strong and it quickly starved down to size 6.

I gave her peace and took some techs. No capitulation offer either. Weird.

Trade with Hatty to build the Taj. I will cancel it once I finish the wonder.

The guy has 6 cities so this should be over in 15 turns or less. No mess right? What could go wrong here?

I take the first two cities very fast and move on to DC.

I am finally able to build the HE and stick it in St PEtersberg which has a fantastic amount of food/hills. That's also where I built the Forbidden Palace.

Taj comes in. I did some chopping too. I delayed switching to free religion to keep the build bonus of org religion. I'll make the switch to free religion/free markets once the golden age is over.

Get another GG and settle him in my new unit factory and begin churning out Trebs.

Washington falls and is pretty much guaranteed to reward me with many GPs before the end of the game.

 

[Pete2006]

Monty ends this deal and I am sensing war is near.

Roosevelt is down to 1 city and it'll take me another 3-4 turns to finish him off.

BAM! Monty declares and AT THE SAME TIME HATTY TAKES ROOSEVELT AS A VASSAL AND DECLARES ON ME TOO!!

Why on earth would she abandon our decent relations to take a vassal with one terrible city and declare on the #1 civ in the game: ME???

Ridiculous.

Monty razes some crappy Russian city that only had a longbow defending.

Thoughts??

 

[CivSetä]

This is a really weird game...

 

[Pete2006]

I think as long as Hatty doesn't invade with galleons I should be ok. I'll get grenadiers soon and I have plenty of cities to pump out units.

 

[CivSetä]

Waiting for post... haven't seen such a interesting game for a long time!

 

[Killroyan]

Holy crap, what is happening here????????? This could make a nice plot for some absurd movie with politics running wild, backstabbing and betrayal. Almost reads like the fall of Rome. I agree with you that I hate it too that you do not get a warning when somebody becomes a vassal that you can talk about war or not with the new master. That would happen in normal life too I guess. I too have already witnessed this with Ramsess who backstabbed me totally because of this system (and he was pleased with me +9 or +10) and took 3 cities with a huge stack before I could muster enough defenses.

What you need right now is to make sure you survive the next 10 turns. If no SoD shows up from Hatty you will be all right. And ST. Petersburg will propably able to produce enough units to withstand Montezuma. If you survive his onslaught too then you will be ok. Biggest land, biggest lead. Then just take out Russia and on your way to victory.

 

[Pete2006]

Hey guys, I haven't had much time to play this is a pretty short turn set. My goal was to pacify Hatty and hold off Monty's attack. I think I succeeded.

I started by finishing off Roosevelt. Without the vassal, the master should lose interest. So far it looks like a fake war. Hatty hasn't sent in any units at all.

I finished my golden age and ran a civics switch. I really didn't run any mathematical calculations on free speech/bureaucracy. I just assume free speech is break even or slightly better at this point. Eventually it'll be much better as my civ grows and I work more and more cottages.

I was going to switch to US as well but it would cost another turn of anarchy. I think I'll make that switch when I get to Emancipation.

Mansa seemed to warm up to me once I adopted free markets. So much so that he agreed to this deal. Even if it only results in some minor border skirmishes, it'll make the two enemies and stop the tech trading between them.

Monty only attacked me with 5-6 units and I got a GG for my troubles. I settled him as an instructor in St Petersburg. Now I have 2 GGs settled there with the heroic epic. Sweeet.

Hatty invaded with a total of three units, pillaged some horses and then agreed to peace. She was never a threat.

That's the round. Sorry it is so short. I used Mansa's money to upgrade my maces to grenadiers. They're a little sore from the Roosevelt fight but are ready to take on Cathy.

In a perfect world, Orenburg would be one tile west of where Cathy settled but the AI loves settling on hills. I can't justify razing a size 9 city so I'll just keep it as is.

 

[Killroyan]

Nice set. As a Dalek would say: EXTERMINATE!!! Russia in this case You have a nice invasion army so lets get the game going. Orenberg, just keep it. The overlap is minimal but you will get gems online immediately and rice and gold soon enough. Looks like the game is pretty much in the bag after that.

 

[CivSetä]

Nice diplomacy with Mansa.

Get your army rolling, I'd suggest Russia first and then Monty-Hatty-Freddy for domination. You might have problems with Hatty if she can tech fast enough, and at least Mansa is probably impossibel target. Waiting for more!

 

[Pete2006]

Mansa appears to be teching like mad during his war with Hatty. He's still has at least 4-5 techs on me.

 

[Pete2006]

Primary goals for this round: Eliminate Cathy and prepare to invade Monty.
Secondary goal: Maintain some techs that neither Hatty nor Mansa has to bribe them into another war.

Fred is starting to get some techs on his own. That gives me some decent trade opportunities but he is demanding 2 for 1 deals. I'll give him this one so I can get the trade routes but I may stop trading with him in the future.

Finish her!

She has no troops to fight back with. Some maces and trebs are no defense against grenadiers and cannons.

This is going to be a nice troop production city. Lots of food and hills. Monty agrees to a cease fire once I nab this one.

I take Novgorod and head towards Cathy's final two cities on this continent. She has one other city just off of Fred's coast. I'll send a galleon over to finish her off when I get the chance. Not interested in a one city vassal... unlike some AI's!!

This may have been a bad idea. I'm probably his only trading partner so every time I trade with him it puts him further in the lead. Nevertheless, I need both those techs even though they obsolete both my GLs.

I was planning on going for Physics for the free GS but Mansa got there way before me.

Fred makes peace with Cathy.. Who cares... Monty declares on Cathy... Big deal... Some thing else there worth reading though.

I popped a GE in Washington and sent him to Seoul to build the SoL. He got me half way there. Must beat Mansa to it.

Here I make the switch to US/Emancipation and pretty much guarantees I take a huge production/GNP lead in the next 200 years.

Monty has a decent stack here. I paused for a couple rounds to let him take the city but he was too slow so I took it instead.

 

[Pete2006]

Now let's look to the next round.

This is what we just took.

This is what we'll take the next round.

I'll going to finish the SoL then have Seoul build a galleon and a couple cannons to finish her off. I need the peace now to quell the war weariness.

Mansa has a 4-5 tech lead and is still #1 in GNP but I've got such a huge manufacturing lead that will only increase with time.

If I wasn't posting the game here I would probably just quit and call it a victory.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Pete thanks for sharing your game with us.

I gave it a try and used a more aggressive openning:

Tech order: BW-Fishing-Hunting-AH-Wheel-Potery-Writing-Alphabet-Iron working-Math-Construction-Mono-COL-Civil Service

Build order: Worker-Worker(chopped)-FB(chopped)-FB(chopped)-Worrior-Settler(chopped)

The reason for this order is because the seafood tiles give you by far the most net output (Fish=5F+3C=8 net, crab=7 net), you want to work them ASAP and you get a boost in food and science. Hence my order. 2 workers are necessary for chopping, mining and etc. I even mined pig hill before i got AH to get 2F+3H.

the first pop works Fish, as soon as the 2nd pop arrive, he works crab. 3rd pop works mined pig hill, later pastured pig hill. You should always ask "what would be the best tile for my next pop to work on given the available tech", and the answer to this question should guild your worker actions. So having 2 workers early is huge because you can work the horse 2 turns faster and 4 turns faster to work both Pig and horse (faster growth and building settler) than a single worker start.

Give this openning a try, compare to your current start, you might be surprised how powerful you grow by 1500BC.

Dont ever think "save the trees before Math", chop them whenever you need most, and that is always the early the better. Early advantages grow exponentially in this game. Besides you need to clear those riverside Grasslands for cottages . In this game, chop the hill trees(Seoul) first follow by mines, pre-wheel, this saves turns. I chopped 4 trees early, had 2 trees grown, saved 4 for later, most likely the GL.

When i got Alphabet(around 1500BC), The AIs had almost nothing valuable to trade to me, i had to research most key techs myself: Iron working-Math-Construction-COL-Civil Service. But most these techs took 6 turns or less. I set 2 scientists in captial as soon as i built liberary. Used the GS on an academy. This academy almost trimmed all subsequent research by 1 turn per tech.

I converted to Roosvelt's religion as soon as it spreads to Seoul because i need the happiness bonus, also soon switched to Organized religion for prod boost. And i know i will capture his holy city very soon.

On the war front, try take out Roosvelt ASAP as he is closest to you, you will gain his cities with a lot less maintainence costs than Cathy's. Also he has marble which to me is always top priority as you need it for GL, NE and HE ASAP.

I got open border with them early and sent out 1 chariot each to explore their lands before planning the attack.

Roosvelt does not have metal early so all you need is CR swordsman and Hewacha. I build units from all my 3 cities and soon had a force of 8 swords and 5 hewacha. Pretty much rolled over Roosevelt and took Washington by 25AD. Got 1 GG duing this war from killing hordes of his archers, and settled the GG in Seoul as instructor. Got bunch of CRIII and CRII swords and Hewach veterans as well and they are ready for Cathy.

Think I might finish this game this weekend. Great game so far.

 

[Pete2006]

My old strategy, pre chopping nerf, was worker - worker - settler chopping the whole way. I tried to continue that strategy in Warlords and it usually didn't speed things up that much so I abandoned it. Curious to see your save game.

Also, the reason I went after Cathy instead of Roosevelt is because she was so much stronger and her land was so much better than Roosevelt's. If you leave Cathy lone long enough for her to cottage all her grassland, she'll become a major power in the game. I think she was #1 or 2 when I initially attacked her.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Yes, Pete, I understand why you went for Cathy first.

Here is how I see it:

1. Roosy is weak, has no metal(archer only army), has a very nice food rich capital with Marble.

You can take him down with swords alone within 15 turns. Although I went the safe choice and waited for Hewacha since the first target is a hill city.

his cities are very close to your capital, the maintenence is very low.

You will have many CRIII and CRII swords after Roosy, which you can later turn into CRIII maces to fight Cathy.

After taking out Roosy, you can fight Cathy more freely since you have no other land threats. If you fight Cathy first and become weakened, Roosy can always backstab you from the East.

Washington is a great city with 3 Seafoods, i got Colosus and turned it into a nice GP farm/science city.

Also after Roosy, you gain another nice Production city New York to help your war with Cathy.

In my game I am on par with Mensa and Haty on Science, light bulbed part of education, should be able to get Liberalism first. And I built a large force of Maces(veterans), Trebs, Hewacha(veterans), Crossbow and pikes for Cathy, the war with her should be short and decisive. Will build the Heroric Epic in her Gem/Stone city) and will build Forbidden Palace in Moscow.

Once I have done all that, any type of victory should be forseeable.

I think this game might be worth to play a couple of times and should be interesting to see the diff results.