Sharp drop in the number of miracles

[Iggy]

Absolutely, 100%. The Genesis account is completely true.

How do you know this in order to be so absolutely certain?

 

[Masquerouge]

Absolutely, 100%. The Genesis account is completely true.

Oh, dear.

Since this is really off-topic, I won't detail my answer anymore.

 

[thestonesfan]

Bad economy, you know. Miracles aren't cheap. Unless you go to Thailand, where you can see Crazy Li survive 26 snake bites for a mere 10 US dollars.

 

[Quasar1011]

The only thing about the Genesis story is: Why would God give us free will without knowledge of good and evil? Why did we have to steal the last part? Did he not want to give it to us out of mercy, or because he didn't trust us, or what?

Okay, I have noticed a theme here: some of you are assuming that Adam and Eve, when created, did not have the knowledge of good and evil. Show me where it says that in the Bible, please. Rather, it says God planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and commanded them not to eat of it. Adam and Eve are being confused with the tree.

 

[Marlos]

How do you know this in order to be so absolutely certain?

To answer your question, there are several logical statements that I would follow to come to this conclusion. You may certainly quibble with whether you consider these statements to be 'logical', but that is why we are discussing this in the thread:

1) The universe exists
2) The universe is a complex place
3) The universe is too complex of a place to have come into existence without the direction of a supreme being (i.e. God)
4) Therefore, the universe was created

Second are statements about who God is:

5) God is perfect in every way (otherwise, how could He be God?)
6) God is holy (i.e. above reproach, since He is perfect)
7) God is all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful, and is present everywhere (after all, He did create the universe -- why wouldn't He be able see everything or go wherever He chose? )

Third, there are statements about how God would relate to his creation:

8) God wants to communicate with His creation
9) In order to communicate with His creation, He would use men and women to write down His thoughts
10) God would preserve his written word (the Bible) and make it readily available to all
11) Since the Bible is God's Word, it is perfect and holy
12) Therefore, the Bible is 100% accurate
13) Therefore, the Genesis account contained in the Bible is an accurate account of how God created the world

I hope that those of you that object to my quoting of Scripture now have a better understanding of why I (or any other Bible-believing Christian) would do so.

Why should one righteous man be exposed to the vileness of their fellow men. If I witness a thug kicking an old lady on the street and I have the power to stop him, and instead watch idly by, am I not evil?

Aphex, if you had the power to stop the thug, and did not, I would certainly think that you were cold and heartless. "Evil"? That's a little strong.

However, the essence of answering your question is that what is evil in human terms and what God considers to be evil are entirely different things. Because God is perfect and holy, what is evil in His eyes is a much larger list. Man's nature is to do evil, and man chooses sinful behavior instead of honoring God (again, the concept of free will).

 

[Timko]

9) In order to communicate with His creation, He would use men and women to write down His thoughts

Why? Surely if thoughts are written on paper they are subject to ambiguity?

 

[Timko]

11) Since the Bible is God's Word, it is perfect and holy
12) Therefore, the Bible is 100% accurate

If the Bible is totally accurate then how come there are different versions of it?

 

[Marlos]

Why? Surely if thoughts are written on paper they are subject to ambiguity?

Perhaps, but what other means were available from the dawn of creation until today? The written word endures!

Ambiguity is a primary reason why diligent study and discernment between diffrerent versions is necessary. Any group that adds anything to the original, inspired texts (Mormonism, for example) is suspect.

If the Bible is totally accurate then how come there are different versions of it?

Some versions exist to modernize the language. The New American Standard and the New International Version made the King James Version and all of its "thee"s and "thou"s into modern English.

Some versions exist that are, plain and simple, not inspired (New World Translation, Book of Mormon). These versions are those used by cults. You will ask, "How do you know this?", and I will answer that God's Holy Bible is pure and complete. It requires no additional "inspiration".

 

[Masquerouge]

To answer your question, there are several logical statements that I would follow to come to this conclusion. You may certainly quibble with whether you consider these statements to be 'logical', but that is why we are discussing this in the thread:

1) The universe exists
2) The universe is a complex place
3) The universe is too complex of a place to have come into existence without the direction of a supreme being (i.e. God)
4) Therefore, the universe was created

What makes you think the Universe is too complex a place ? Too complex for whom ? And what exactly is "complex" when applied to the Universe ? The Universe has NOT been designed.

9) In order to communicate with His creation, He would use men and women to write down His thoughts
10) God would preserve his written word (the Bible) and make it readily available to all
11) Since the Bible is God's Word, it is perfect and holy
12) Therefore, the Bible is 100% accurate
13) Therefore, the Genesis account contained in the Bible is an accurate account of how God created the world

Okay, what about New Testament ? The books composing the NT were chosen in 350 AD in the Nicae Council, among many other (the apocryphical gospels), by the then Catholic Church and emperor Constantine. Clearly, men CHOSE what should fit in NT. We have transcripts of the debates, and they were quite heated. Now why didn't God just point out the gospels he wanted to fit in the NT ? And why FOUR gospels telling the same thing ?
About OT : what is God's message in the Song of Solomon ? I'm sorry if I keep asking that, but no one really gave me an answer...
And about Bible versions : why are the OT books not in the same order in the Torah and in the Christian Bible ? If God's word was so perfect, don't you think messing with the order of the books would scramble the message ?Tell me why the Eastern Orthodox religion includes books that the others do not ? Why Samaritans only recognize five books in their Bible ? Why the Ethiopian Orthodox church has 81 books in its Bible, the Syrians have 22 books in their Bible, while the Roman Catholics and Protestants have 27 books ? What makes KJV's version the only true one in your eyes ? We're not talking about traductions, here, we're talking about entire BOOK missing or being added. Where's the 100% accurate word of God in there ?

 

[newfangle]

3) The universe is too complex of a place to have come into existence without the direction of a supreme being (i.e. God)
4) Therefore, the universe was created

Complexity is not defined. Complexity does not imply direction. 4) does not follow from 3).

Please don't try to use logic to defend faith.

 

[The Last Conformist]

A good working definition of complexity is that the thing complex takes alot of information to satisfyingly describe. Some parts of the cosmos are certainly very complex on this measure.

 

[thestonesfan]

To answer your question, there are several logical statements that I would follow to come to this conclusion. You may certainly quibble with whether you consider these statements to be 'logical', but that is why we are discussing this in the thread:

1) The universe exists
2) The universe is a complex place
3) The universe is too complex of a place to have come into existence without the direction of a supreme being (i.e. God)
4) Therefore, the universe was created

Circular logic isn't logical at all.

1) God exists.
2) God is a complex entity.
3) God is too complex an entity to have come into existence without the direction of a supreme being (i.e. God's mother)
4) Therefore, God has a mother.

so we can infer...

1) God's mother exists.
2) God's mother is a complex entity.
...and so on.

So as you can see, if you argue with logic, you won't make any more sense than a big-banger. And if you argue with faith, well, you really aren't arguing.

Humans just don't get it. Our best hope is to find an alien being who does, and who is able to explain it in a way we can understand.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Circular logic isn't logical at all.

1) God exists.
2) God is a complex entity.
3) God is too complex an entity to have come into existence without the direction of a supreme being (i.e. God's mother)
4) Therefore, God has a mother.

so we can infer...

1) God gets at least three calls a week from his mother, asking him why he never calls.

...and so on.

 

[The Last Conformist]

It follows that Bell didn't invent the telephone.

 

[bigfatron]

QUOTE=Marlos:
To answer your question, there are several logical statements that I would follow to come to this conclusion. You may certainly quibble with whether you consider these statements to be 'logical', but that is why we are discussing this in the thread:
1) The universe exists OK
2) The universe is a complex placeOK
3) The universe is too complex of a place to have come into existence without the direction of a supreme being (i.e. God)For the sake of argument, let's acccept this, though I don't necessarily agree
4) Therefore, the universe was createdfollows from 3

Second are statements about who God is:

5) God is perfect in every way (otherwise, how could He be God?)Why? God could logically have any moral compass or none at all. How on earth can we understand a being that exists outside time and space well enough to make this statement? In fact, is it even meaningful for a being we cannot remotely comprehend? This is just wishful thinking.
6) God is holy (i.e. above reproach, since He is perfect)As with 5, there is no logical basis whatsoever for this assumption
7) God is all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful, and is present everywhere (after all, He did create the universe -- why wouldn't He be able see everything or go wherever He chose? )the fact of creation doesn't stop the creaor being bounded - we can make a car and then not be able to see inside the piston blocks while the pistons are in motion...

Third, there are statements about how God would relate to his creation:

8) God wants to communicate with His creationthis does not follow logically, it is simply an assumption
9) In order to communicate with His creation, He would use men and women to write down His thoughtswhy not write them on the side of mountains? cuts out the middle man, prevents misinterpretation, and He CAN do it, so why not?
10) God would preserve his written word (the Bible) and make it readily available to allIf so minded....
11) Since the Bible is God's Word, it is perfect and holyBig 'since' there - lots of books claim to be God's holy word and a maximum of one of them is right
12) Therefore, the Bible is 100% accuratemaybe god doesn't want it to be accurate?
13) Therefore, the Genesis account contained in the Bible is an accurate account of how God created the worldwell, accepting the nine preceding assumptions then this one is actually logical!

I hope that those of you that object to my quoting of Scripture now have a better understanding of why I (or any other Bible-believing Christian) would do so.



Aphex, if you had the power to stop the thug, and did not, I would certainly think that you were cold and heartless. "Evil"? That's a little strong.

However, the essence of answering your question is that what is evil in human terms and what God considers to be evil are entirely different things. So how do you know God is what you call 'perfect'? you ackonldege you can't even begin to understand what a putative God considers good and evil, yet you circumscribe His moral outlook in human terms!

Because God is perfect and holy, what is evil in His eyes is a much larger list. Man's nature is to do evil, and man chooses sinful behavior instead of honoring God (again, the concept of free will).[/QUOTE]maybe - or maybe the bible story is a fable put together by generations of priests to secure a passive populace and an easy life....

 

[CurtSibling]

Absolutely, 100%. The Genesis account is completely true.

Interesting assertion.

I politely ask you to present a disbeliever some proof of your claim.

Speculative musings like you posted previously do not count.

If this is too 'off topic', then please make a new thread.

.

 

[thestonesfan]

Uh oh, Curt's found some fresh meat.

 

[CurtSibling]

I am fresh from punishing zealots and islamists from another site, so I am ready for some civilised debate.

But on another thread if needs be!

 

[CurtSibling]

The only thing about the Genesis story is: Why would God give us free will without knowledge of good and evil? Why did we have to steal the last part? Did he not want to give it to us out of mercy, or because he didn't trust us, or what?

If we are made in this god's image - But have the capacity for 'evil'...

Is the god you worship capable of 'evil' also?


.

 

[Mauer]

Luke 10:11 The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.