Sharp drop in the number of miracles

[Iggy]

In answer to the question why is there a sharp drop in the number of miracles I would blame both magicians and technology. Magicians prove that people can still be mystified by illusions, even in these ever increasingly enlightened times, (although they would not call them miracles these days). Unlike in the days of Jesus where he was a prophet living amongst an oppressed people where word of mouth was the main medium for communicating events, we can rely on technology to record these events and it is somewhat more reliable than receiving news fifth or sixth hand. Miracles would perhaps not stand up to scrutiny today.
At the end of the day those people who believe in religious texts written and rewritten by man and passed down the ages are perhaps more likely to accept other peoples claims on trust. I do not share their faith in my fellow man to be quite so trusting.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

Well, newfangle, we agree on as many things as an objectivist and a subjectivist can agree on

 

[Crimso]

There are relgious people vs. non-relegious people topics all over this board. Would someone just post a new thread where both sides just go at it?

OR MAYBE WE CAN JUST STOP WITH THE BLAHLBAHLBHALABHALBHALBHALBHABLAHBLAHBLABHLAHBLABHALBHALBHALBH

 

[Iggy]

@Crimso. If you dont like the topic, then ignore the thread. The clue is usually in the title.

 

[sabo]

I see little miracles every day, one that happened recently was my father recovered from what seemed terminal cancer. I have just found where to look for them

 

[Bozo Erectus]

When something good happens through apparent divine intervention, its called a miracle. Whats it called when something bad happens through divine intervention?

 

[Iggy]

When something good happens through apparent divine intervention, its called a miracle. Whats it called when something bad happens through divine intervention?

I dont know, but someone will always blame the government.

 

[Cheetah]

Couldn't someone come up with an example of a (preferably not to old) miracle, so we could discuss it, instead of us just going around the same old talk over and over again?

 

[ybbor]

When something good happens through apparent divine intervention, its called a miracle. Whats it called when something bad happens through divine intervention?

I dont know, but someone will always blame the government.

i'd call it a miracle. nothing happens is entirely bad God always had a plan and it always fits into the bigger picture, even if we can't see the big picture

 

[newfangle]

nothing happens is entirely bad God always had a plan and it always fits into the bigger picture,picture

6 million slaughtered Jews fits into the picture? The Inquisition? The Mongol Hordes? The Crusades? Rapist priests? That's a damn hard pill to swallow.

 

[Milan's Warrior]

Is it ridiculous how often atheists must prove those who believe in god that they are wrong. If you are so sure about your opinion, why do [...] some of them have more holy fervor than any christian hardcore missionary ever????

I think I have a hard time to resist the temptation to do good and put the believers on the right path

No joking now: personally, this board is probably my first attempt to confute the believers opinion. I arrived happily at the age of 31 without having to bother, but on this board there seems to be so many people who hold so many strong religious beliefs that I have a hard time not expressing my opinion.
In other words, for me I think it derives from being exposed for the first time in my life to so many believers and having a hard time believing that these people actually are seriously believing in what they say.
To make my point clearer, I just wonder whether these people are truly believer or they just happen to believe because they have never heard otherwise.

 

[Milan's Warrior]

Couldn't someone come up with an example of a (preferably not to old) miracle, so we could discuss it, instead of us just going around the same old talk over and over again?

Well I just read today (New York Times, Oct 4 "Pope Beatifies Last Emperor of Austria; Reaction Mixed") that the Pope beatified the last Austrian Emperor for the following miracles: "cured varicose veins in a brasilian nun"

 

[Halcyon]

Popie's been going for the record, though. He's beatifying everyone. Seems he wants to be remembered for something, so he's trying to triple the number of recorded saints. Daft old bugger.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Couldn't someone come up with an example of a (preferably not to old) miracle, so we could discuss it, instead of us just going around the same old talk over and over again?

I don't think this is the best example, but I kind of wanted to post this somewhere and not start a whole new thread on it.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/04/tornado.porn.ap/index.html

Some would say God had something to do with this.

I would say it was just statistically due to happen. For all the 'innocent/good' people who suffered from hurricane Ivan, a very bad person was due to suffer also.

 

[Marlos]

6 million slaughtered Jews fits into the picture? The Inquisition? The Mongol Hordes? The Crusades? Rapist priests? That's a damn hard pill to swallow.

It is a hard pill to swallow. Even as a Christian, it is difficult. However, God is an eternal, unchanging God. Because he is God, he is perfect in every way. If he were not perfect, he would not be God.

God is in control of all things. ALL things. All events. His allowance of certain events may be distasteful, but He is still in control.

Secondarily, man is a corrupt, vile being. Man will serve his own needs and desires. Just becuase Adolf Hitler, a perverse and twisted man, led a country that sought to exterminate Jews, does not make God any less than what he is.

Finally, God is not some "eternal babysitter" that will provide us with everything that satisfies our desires. We cannot look at an event like 9/11 and say, "See! God should not have let that happen!" God's purpose in events is not always revealed to us -- perhaps it will never be revealed to us.

If you do not know God, it is impossible for you to understand His ways. However, I do not profess to know them all myself. As a Christian, I follow God and through my obedience His will is revealed to me.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I see little miracles every day, one that happened recently was my father recovered from what seemed terminal cancer. I have just found where to look for them

Which raises another point - exactly what is a miracle? If it's a divine intervention violating the laws of physics, it's very tough to be sure one has ever occured - how do we know that our knowledge is complete enough to say that it indeed was against said laws? If we just mean some unexpected and inexplicable good happening, they happen on a daily basis.

When something good happens through apparent divine intervention, its called a miracle. Whats it called when something bad happens through divine intervention?

Smiting.

 

[Moss]

It is a hard pill to swallow. Even as a Christian, it is difficult. However, God is an eternal, unchanging God. Because he is God, he is perfect in every way. If he were not perfect, he would not be God.

God is unchanging? I seem to detect a very drastic change from the old testament to the new testament of the bible. In one he is an unforgiving strict God who asks for sacrafices and the such...in the new he is much more forgiving and kind. Yes, Jesus is a cause for this, but God still changed.

 

[Longasc]

Lets talk about real miracles:

1.) The current German Government has been elected twice, even if nobody was really content with them.

No miracle at all, the opposition was not more trusted either

2.) George Bush probably gets re-elected

No miracle at all, Kerry is seen as even less trustworthy as someone who does so many stupid things and is made fun off, plus starting a war in Iraq.

3.) It is always the Governments fault

This is a miracle. There are few things that cannot be related to a failure of the government. These are obviously miracles.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

It is a hard pill to swallow. Even as a Christian, it is difficult. However, God is an eternal, unchanging God. Because he is God, he is perfect in every way. If he were not perfect, he would not be God.

God is in control of all things. ALL things. All events. His allowance of certain events may be distasteful, but He is still in control.

Secondarily, man is a corrupt, vile being. Man will serve his own needs and desires. Just becuase Adolf Hitler, a perverse and twisted man, led a country that sought to exterminate Jews, does not make God any less than what he is.

Finally, God is not some "eternal babysitter" that will provide us with everything that satisfies our desires. We cannot look at an event like 9/11 and say, "See! God should not have let that happen!" God's purpose in events is not always revealed to us -- perhaps it will never be revealed to us.

If you do not know God, it is impossible for you to understand His ways. However, I do not profess to know them all myself. As a Christian, I follow God and through my obedience His will is revealed to me.

You say man, I say I. Why should one righteous man be exposed to the vileness of their fellow men. If I witness a thug kicking an old lady on the street and I have the power to stop him, and instead watch idly by, am I not evil? And not all evil is a consequence of an act of man (earthquakes, volcano eruptions...), how do you account for that?

Finally, if you say you do not know God and do not understand his intentions, how can you claim to know what God wants and how can you pledge your allegiance to him?

 

[Marlos]

God is unchanging? I seem to detect a very drastic change from the old testament to the new testament of the bible. In one he is an unforgiving strict God who asks for sacrafices and the such...in the new he is much more forgiving and kind. Yes, Jesus is a cause for this, but God still changed.

God is perfect -- he always has been. Why would he need to change?

As far as Jesus being the cause of God "changing", you are contradicting yourself. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit have all been present since the beginning. Jesus didn't come along later, and God "changed" as a result of Jesus' life on Earth.

(I would quote Scripture to back this up, but I am trying to avoid doing this only because earlier in this thread, someone took umbrage with my use of the Bible to demonstrate the character of God. Let me know if you would like me to do so )