Sharp drop in the number of miracles

[Marlos]

And not all evil is a consequence of an act of man (earthquakes, volcano eruptions...), how do you account for that?

Finally, if you say you do not know God and do not understand his intentions, how can you claim to know what God wants and how can you pledge your allegiance to him?

Before the entrance of sin into the world (in Eden), the world was a perfect place. Such things as earthquakes and volcanic eruptions did not take place. Mankind has brought these calamaties upon itself. Again, as I stated earlier, God is not some "eternal babysitter" that will blindly provide for all of our needs.

Secondly, it appears that I did not state myself clearly. I have professed a faith in Jesus Christ as my personal savior. As a result, I have a path to commune with God (in prayer, etc.) through which God will reveal His will to me for my life. I do not understand all of the things that occur in the world, but when God has given you a lens through which to see things, you can trust that He is in control and His plan is perfect. God's will be done!

 

[Cheetah]

Well I just read today (New York Times, Oct 4 "Pope Beatifies Last Emperor of Austria; Reaction Mixed") that the Pope beatified the last Austrian Emperor for the following miracles: "cured varicose veins in a brasilian nun"

Can't say much about that particular indident, but you are right, it is very interesting to note how many people beatified by the pope.

I don't think this is the best example, but I kind of wanted to post this somewhere and not start a whole new thread on it.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/04/tornado.porn.ap/index.html

Some would say God had something to do with this.

I would say it was just statistically due to happen. For all the 'innocent/good' people who suffered from hurricane Ivan, a very bad person was due to suffer also.

Agreed. A simple coincidense. Or maybe I should believe it is the nice and benevolent God who found it neccesarry to destroy a lot of homes and lives to punnish one "evil" man.
(Not that I don't think what he was doing was wrong, but contrary to the Bibel and other religious texts, I'm not comfortable labeling a being as evil.)

Before the entrance of sin into the world (in Eden), the world was a perfect place. Such things as earthquakes and volcanic eruptions did not take place. Mankind has brought these calamaties upon itself. Again, as I stated earlier, God is not some "eternal babysitter" that will blindly provide for all of our needs.

As I have read Genesis, the rest of the world did exist outside the garden before humans sinned. How else could it be looked upon as a garden and not as 'the world'? Of course I don't know how the rest of the world were supposed to be, or if there were plants or animals there. But if there weren't, then God created them before man was banned from the garden. Rather pointless to make it more liveable if he was going to punnish the humans.

Secondly, it appears that I did not state myself clearly. I have professed a faith in Jesus Christ as my personal savior. As a result, I have a path to commune with God (in prayer, etc.) through which God will reveal His will to me for my life. I do not understand all of the things that occur in the world, but when God has given you a lens through which to see things, you can trust that He is in control and His plan is perfect. God's will be done!

How does the devil fit into this? If God is allknowing, then he would know that Lucifer would turn evil and tempt Eva with the apple. Why did he let it happen? If it was to punnish/test humans, why put them in the garden first?

 

[Quasar1011]

In Biblical times and in Jesus times miracles seemed to be an everyday thing. Up to medieeval times miracles were still quite frequent; resurrections were also quite frequent.

Resurrections were not frequent in Biblical times. I can think of only one- the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Being "raised from the dead" can take 2 forms: 1) a true resurrection, where the person raised from the dead gains a new, immortal body that can never die again, or 2) a resuscitation, where the dead person regains life in the same body; such a person dies again at some point.

Lazarus and Jairus' daughter were not resurrected, they were resuscitated.
When the Bible talks about resurrections, it speaks of future events. Except for , of course.

 

[Marlos]

As I have read Genesis, the rest of the world did exist outside the garden before humans sinned. How else could it be looked upon as a garden and not as 'the world'? Of course I don't know how the rest of the world were supposed to be, or if there were plants or animals there. But if there weren't, then God created them before man was banned from the garden. Rather pointless to make it more liveable if he was going to punnish the humans.

One of the primary themes in Genesis 1 is that God created a perfect world. Several times, the words "and God saw that it was good" appear, directly stating that the holy God viewed his creation as acceptable. Since God is perfect and holy, he can only approve of what is also perfect and holy. Thus, the world He created was perfect.

When man sinned, God cast him from Eden. To answer your question, when I said that "sin entered the world (in Eden)", I was stating the place where sin entered, not that the rest of the world did not exist at that time.

The world before the Fall was a perfect place where God provided all of Adam and Eve's needs. Because of their sinful rebellion, the human race was cursed.

How does the devil fit into this? If God is allknowing, then he would know that Lucifer would turn evil and tempt Eva with the apple. Why did he let it happen? If it was to punnish/test humans, why put them in the garden first?

Again, the garden is the shining example of what was lost when man sinned. The example of Eden gives us the first reason why Jesus came to Earth -- to reconcile God and man.

Why did God let this happen? God gives all men the ability to be obedient toward Him, or to be rebellious. This is free will. God will place us in situations where we can obey or rebel, and lets us choose our own actions.

 

[cgannon64]

The only thing about the Genesis story is: Why would God give us free will without knowledge of good and evil? Why did we have to steal the last part? Did he not want to give it to us out of mercy, or because he didn't trust us, or what?

 

[Masquerouge]

Before the entrance of sin into the world (in Eden), the world was a perfect place. Such things as earthquakes and volcanic eruptions did not take place. Mankind has brought these calamaties upon itself.

Please tell me you don't believe that literally.

Anyway, if volcanoes and earthquakes did not take place before the Fall, and were brought into being directly because of Man, then why are there volcanoes and earthquakes on planets where man never went ?

 

[The Last Conformist]

(Not that I don't think what he was doing was wrong, but contrary to the Bibel and other religious texts, I'm not comfortable labeling a being as evil.)

What distinction 'tween "evil" and "wrong" are you maintaining here?

Anyway, if volcanoes and earthquakes did not take place before the Fall, and were brought into being directly because of Man, then why are there volcanoes and earthquakes on planets where man never went ?

Because we might one day go there, one assumes.

 

[Masquerouge]

Because we might one day go there, one assumes.

Wow, so the Red Storm of Jupiter is in fact waiting for us...

 

[bigfatron]

Nah - God isn't a politician.

The prophets were top-notch at the political game, though. Absolute masters of scare tactics ("Oh, sure, you COULD go and play on Sabbath...if you want the Babylonians to conquer us!"), among other things.

The notion of God just happened to be a convenient figurehead for their politicking.

Way to go Oda!

Priesting - best employment around, inside work, no heavy lifting, three square meals a day. Compared to the other two 'oldest professions' it involves far less pain than soldiering and is much more open to men than becoming a person of negotiable virtue! Besides, in both other cases there is far more exposure to B.O. involved....

Let's be serious, religion was an absolute slam-dunk 100% guaranteed necessary consequence of an ability to communicate and evaluate opportunity - up there with speech, rape and murder.

Religion is about obtaining status and goods for certain articulate and intelligent individuals without recourse to pain or work - churches of ALL religions throughout the ages have been about maintaining the political status quo whilst overpowering any competing religions.

Of course, it is possible that in all this welter of self-interest God should actually have divinely inspired one particular sect, chosen a specific tribe to aggrandise, carried out miracles - mostly violent - on their behalf, etc. thereby rendering one of this multitude of religions valid.

But given the political and social pressures in all societies toward development of a religion (I believe there is no record of any distinct society existing without some form of religious belief) it is stretching one's credibility....

On topic, when our local priest's daughter's party was nearly washed out by rain which stopped at the last minute, he said it was a miracle showing God's response to his prayer. When her friend died of leukemia a year later, despite prayers of everyone, believers and non-believers alike, he said it was God's will. How can you believe in a God that keeps vicars' kids' parties dry but lets little children die in pain? Maybe God had the telly up loud those weeks and couldn't hear us....

Hypocrisy? Of course not! Give me strength....

 

[Stile]

The widespread availability of the Bible rendered miracles obsolete.

 

[Clito]

Oh, I'll get back on this one... !

 

[Iggy]

The widespread availability of the Bible rendered miracles obsolete.

As more people are educated and have freedom to think for themselves I would have thought that miracles should be produced on a higher miracle to disaster ratio. It would make jolly good PR.

 

[Clito]

As more people are educated and have freedom to think for themselves I would have thought that miracles should be produced on a higher miracle to disaster ratio. It would make jolly good PR.

Miracles, the politics behind the scenes

by Iggy

Get it first on amazon.co.uk

 

[Clito]

Yikes, look at that! ^^^

 

[Iggy]

Miracles, the politics behind the scenes

by Iggy

It does have a certain ring to it.

 

[CurtSibling]

There are several debates about God (or Gods or Goddesses or no Gods) so I want to ask to the christians (and possibly people of other religions too). How do they explain the sharp drop in the number of miracles.

In Biblical times and in Jesus times miracles seemed to be an everyday thing. Up to medieeval times miracles were still quite frequent; resurrections were also quite frequent.

The closer we get to modern days the fewer miracles we see. I don't think we had claims of big miracles (such as the parting of the Red Sea) in centuries.

How do you explain that?

Being an atheist I explain it with the fact that now people just don't believe in these things anymore

We have more people less likely to be fooled into believing fabled junk like miracles.
Rather than religion, they have turned to TV and intoxicants to escape the reality of their mediocre lives.

That said, there are still plenty of hopeless cases who gather in bleating droves
every time a crack in a window pane resembles some mythical christian icon.

People! -

 

[bigfatron]

Look out, Curt's back!

 

[Marlos]

Please tell me you don't believe that literally.

Absolutely, 100%. The Genesis account is completely true.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

The only thing about the Genesis story is: Why would God give us free will without knowledge of good and evil? Why did we have to steal the last part? Did he not want to give it to us out of mercy, or because he didn't trust us, or what?

The two are undiscernable from each other. Consider this: is a wolf capabile of evil things?

 

[Aphex_Twin]

Before the entrance of sin into the world (in Eden), the world was a perfect place. Such things as earthquakes and volcanic eruptions did not take place. Mankind has brought these calamaties upon itself. Again, as I stated earlier, God is not some "eternal babysitter" that will blindly provide for all of our needs.

If my parents did something regretable, why should I be held accountable for it? Adam and Eve, had they sinned, they themselves should have paid and not their offspring.

And you avoided the main question: "If I witness a thug kicking an old lady on the street and I have the power to stop him, and instead watch idly by, am I not evil?"

If the word "evil" is too ambigous, do feel free to present a definition