Short fun game (immortal)

[mystyfly]

I will get to play tmr (sat) morning. I'm sorry for the delay.

 

[mystyfly]

Nothing much unexpected happened... Short report:

I'm curious abt what that WB is for... and why that south... there's no more scouting possible due to ice.

I think the consensus is to trade for MC now... I do that:

620AD CS is in and I kick off the GA

Also note how philo now definitely is available in trade AND how gandhi is willing to talk again.

Gandhi also is willing to trade us calendar, we need it for bananas and sugar so I go ahead and get some gold as well.

As I expected this didn't add any WE -ves whatsoever.

Make the switch

Get us some gold and more

Note: We don't really need the ... we should generally renegotiate our trades soon anyway...

I teched masonry and mono... and got us city #9:

... without any losses, got us another lvl3 unit (CR3 axe) as well as 3 workers . Mission accomplished I'd say

You may have noted the little orange fist in gandhis column. That's why:

Yup, churchill declared on gandhi... As I expected...

I end my set 710AD as we have a few things to discuss:

• We have a deal available... go or no-go? It would give both us and churchill maces; might be good so he doesn't get crushed by gandhi's army of missionaries . Also we can broker machinery to gandhi the next turn, get partially researched philo from him.
  
  
  
  
  
• As you can see we can tech paper in 1 turn. Also a market finishes in 1t in moscov. I think we should up the slider for 1t (been running 0% eversince I started the GA) to get paper and maximise yield from the market.
  
• I am building chichen itza in novgorod instead of wealth. Don't accidentally finish it please
  
• IMO we should make some demand from gandhi (like some gold) in order to get a 10t peace treaty during which none of our future hindu friends can push us into that war.
  
• I have a scouting chariot near the english-indian border.
  
• I have not yet accepted hinduism as our state religion to keep the culture bonus up as long as possible, eventually get an AI to ask us to convert (+1 ) and to not yet piss off gandhi and mao.
  
• We have way more than enough axes and swords especially since we're planning on using 2MP units on the attack. Our army more than suffices to keep any possible threat at bay.
  
• Worker priority #1 now is to chainirrigate our northern cities. Also, Novgorod and Yeka are working forests... With lots of riverside plains unworked.... Machinery enables watermills...
  
• Forges are up everywhere I think.
  
• We have one more city to settle, near the iron.
  
• St. Pete has been completely focusing on GPP.

Empire overview:

Save:
View attachment Short quickie AD-0710.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[babybluepants]

Nice set, mysty.

Haven't looked at the save yet, but it's looking really good now. Not sure I like the Machinery trade... We'll have Education very quickly now, so I guess the next set is mainly about getting Unis up asap... I'll have a look at the save later today and comment more.

WB: Just forget it's there. I built it 'cause exploring north seemed like a good idea (someone hinted at pre-Optics reachable civs), but then completely forgot what tf it was for when complete...

 

[shyuhe]

Looking at the layout, I wish we had the military to go dogpile on Churchill He's small with a vulnerable iron source and good land. But alas. That being said, I'd go ahead and trade CS for machinery - we don't want Churchill getting crushed here (although it's probably unlikely given that he's protective).

I'd finish paper then get literature before proceeding through education. I would also convert to Hinduism and adopt OR while we're in a GA. We can sell MC to Mao to make sure he doesn't drop to annoyed. I'm not too worried about him anyways.

I wouldn't rush to build Oxford - we need to start preparing cities for the military grind that's to come soon. We can use a GS on education so that leaves 1/2 of edu, nationalism, gunpowder as requisites for liberalism--MT. There's another AI out there with a good GNP - I'm guessing it's Roos, probably in a GA.

Yaro needs some culture buildings to fight back against Mao. I'd cancel the Bismarck deal and set it up with copper if we have the chance. Not that WE will be hard to kill (especially with cossacks) but no point giving more than necessary.

Roster:
shyuhe
Ras - AWOL
mysty just played
Silu - UP
bbp on deck

 

[mystyfly]

Hehe well then we either may leave it on go-to (north) or just delete it

I don't like building unis before our renaissance war, especially since we'll most likely be starting with cuirassiers. I'd rather get the infra (enough , rax/stables, forges, CH, etc) up and build wealth instead. By the time the unis (and oxford) will be done we'll have our techs, probably nearly rifling so we won't need many more beakers anyway. I'd rather have our cities properly prepared and maybe a few units prebuilt and reach MT a bit sooner to make our war(s) even easier. I wouldn't bother with unis until after the first few waves of horsies

Trading for machinery means we can't bulb lib... I think we should bulb at least edu once and lib once so we get faster to the techs...

 

[Silu]

No chance to look at the save yet, looking good. Though did you read the whole discussion? The Bismarck trade should have been for Copper instead of Ivory. Not that big of a deal though.

If we don't plan on Unis then is it really better to go for Lib instead of straight MT? Maybe if we want to burn bulbs it's a bit better but it feels people usually just shut off brains and go for Lib instead of considering the alternatives at all There's also a small (tiny) chance of losing lib race to the big dog on the other continent.

More comments when I'm at my computer.

 

[shyuhe]

Good point Silu, but I think it's faster going liberalism if we properly farm scientists. We finish paper, part research philo and trade paper for philo and adopt Hinduism + pacifism. Moscow and Nov can crank then out two scientists pretty quickly (I think around 12-15 turns for the two). In the meantime, we can tech nationalism while building barracks/stables/wealth in the other cities.

edit: on second thought, there are LOTS of techs we need to clear out to unlock the liberalism bulb. So grinding out two great people for a golden age is just as good for me.

 

[babybluepants]

bbp on deck
bbp (?)

So, what is my status?

With a single bulb, Paper-Edu-Lib is the same price from here as MT, and it has much better trade value. There's also quite a bit of teching left to Rifling (and probably beyond), which is obviously easier to do with Oxford (especially given our awesome bureau cap)... I still have to look at the save, but I'm dubious about this at best. Losing the Lib race is a valid concern, though. We're not exactly racing through the tech tree here...

 

[Silu]

^ Yeah, I guess Edu is way better actually... I somehow forgot we need to unlock Gunpowder and that doing it the "way of the warrior" would require getting Feudalism, Machinery and Guilds here.

About using a bulb for Lib, that would mean a detour to get Compass which I feel is a useless detour right at this point. Either a single bulb or double bulb on Edu should be more efficient?

In the save, were we only supposed to GACasteSciGrind in 1 city? I was thinking it would be a no-brainer for at least Novgorod to be grinding one as well. Not that we need those GPs that bad on the other hand. Anyway this setup only gives us a single bulb before Lib so I guess that's settled Nevertheless I wouldn't make the Machinery trade at this point. Or should I go for 2 turns of GACasteSciGrind in Novgorod still?

As for the WB, actually it's fine since it's currently spawnbusting a couple of tiles that could give barb Galleys that would wreck Ye-Fish's Fish.

So, tentative plan:

- Switch to Hindu&OR&Slavery in 2 turns
- Tech is something like Paper->Edu->Aesth(x)->Lit(x)->Philo(x)->Nat->Music(x)->Lib&MT->GP , where the (x)'s denote techs we hopefully can trade for for some of them?
- Try to get a HBR trade off somewhere and fit Stables into the ques, pretty fast actually since cities are running out of sensible builds
- Settle the Iron filler when Ya-Copper gets some chained irrigation
- Main emphasis is on vertical growth

Anything I missed?

EDIT: Fixed brain fart in tech order

 

[shyuhe]

I'd prefer pacifism over OR right now but otherwise agree.

 

[Silu]

I'd prefer pacifism over OR right now but otherwise agree.

I didn't even remember to consider that a possibility, seeing how we don't have Philo and there's no trade for it. However it takes 1 turn to tech(!) so we could go for it. I don't like that though mainly because if we go other stuff first we might get it in a trade for "free" (say, with Paper&Aesthetics). Also we don't really need extra GPs that much and we would have to revolt out of it when we start getting our military up.

(Q1) ^ What do the other guys think?

(Q2) Also, we could sell Gem Corn for 7gpt to Gandhi, is that worth opening borders? I guess not.

(Q3) I would also like to cut 2 forests in Moscow (river grass and grass hill); with that kind of food I don't think health is an issue and it's running out of workable tiles. Ok?

(Q4) The Novgorod to-GP-or-not-to-GP issue for the next 2 turns. Opinions?

 

[obsolete]

LOL, yesterday when I looked at your save, I was blown away at first at how you could research half of paper in just one turn. Then I quickly remembered it was QUICK speed

It looks like the English are about to capitulate very soon to the indians. Then you may have a problem. He's already at a 2-1 disadvantage in a total # of cities. Other than that, this one LOOKS like it should be easy.

 

[Silu]

LOL, yesterday when I looked at your save, I was blown away at first at how you could research half of paper in just one turn. Then I quickly remembered it was QUICK speed

It's even funnier than that, currently Paper is at 0 beakers and the first half is overflow

EDIT: About Church capping I'm not sure about that, the powers are 0.7 vs 0.6 and Church has the tech edge with PRO Xbows. This brings into mind, should we after all trade CS/Ivory to him so he gets Maces/Jumbos? I don't think that's necessary though but it's a possibility if it looks like his war is going badly.

 

[babybluepants]

I didn't realize it was at 0 beakers either.

I like OR, because I'd rather trade for Philo right now then waste -100gpt on it.

No trading with Gandhi IMHO.

I don't care about the forests in Moscow for health reasons anymore, but we could also keep them for a major build - what's going there next?

I'm not expecting Church to cap here. Definitely give him a boost if it starts going south, but we can wait a little bit... I'll have a closer look later at their power ratings. I suspect Gandhi's is totally inflated due to empire size and tech.

Edit:
Gandhi has by far the top GNP in the game, and Tao was founded on our continent, so I'm sure we won't lose Lib to Roos. We just have to stay ahead of Gandhi. Should be easy enough with a bulb, he'll probably side-track at least one tech.

Given that we're not staying in Caste, I wouldn't bother with gpp in Novgorod. It'll take forever to get a GP, and the wonder gold build is hyper-efficient. Just max out hammers, I think.

 

[shyuhe]

I'd chop the hill and riverside forests in Moscow - we're ok with health for now.

OR is fine with me, although we should look out for a good philo trade if possible. Let's just watch what Gandhi techs to make sure he doesn't beat us to liberalism.

I would stay in caste for now. We don't need to whip for some time still.

 

[mystyfly]

I thought about running scis in nov but I didn't consider it worth it seeing as we only have max +2 food per tile and I preferred focusing on infra (read CH and forge)... that city could build the settler however I'd like to partbuild as much of Chichen Itza as possible... The ironfiller city is not a big priority imo.

I agree with not bulbing lib.

However I would like to bulb edu twice... I don't see lack of GPP as much of a problem... There are so many other things we can tech instead right now and we can always run 0%... I think that is best... What about beelining guilds for workshops?

I don't like pacifism as we have quite many units (compared to my other games) and mainly we don't have many good specialist cities... I'd rather help building the infra faster (those cities then can build wealth). Plus OR helps spreading hinduism to our cities that still lack it...

I wouldn't have a lasting trade (like OB or resource) with gandhi either.

And I don't care much about the forests in moscov however I'd like to spend them on something useful and not just chop them so they're gone.

BTW I doubt as well that churchill capitulates (just yet) but still I'd like to give him some kind of boost... like phants... or the machinery trade... but I'm really not sure abt that trade...

 

[Silu]

^ Beelining Guilds is definitely off the table since we're going Edu, can't take 3 expensive techs just to get better workshops if we're racing for Lib and 2move warfare (except with trades obviously) Teching the Nat line first means we forfeit the opportunity to trade for Philo, but we gain the opportunity to trade Nat around (we probably don't want to take a shot at Taj, or even if we do it's probably a nice chip after that). This is probably a good choice actually since if we go Edu we won't have a tradeable tech for a long time.

Since Edu isn't that far off I guess the forests go towards an Uni in Moscow (which is contributing like 75% of our research). I guess it can run scientists or something until then.

New round of questions before I can play:

Q0: Shot at IND-Taj with Moscow forest help? Our empire is so big that GAs are quite nice at this point already and there's not that much to build, and even just IND helps a ton with Taj.

Q1: Okay to delay Edu in favor of sth like Paper->Aesth (hopefully trading these 2 for Philo) ->Lit->Philo->Nationalism while trying to get the 2nd scientist to 2xbulb Edu? Going fast Edu doesn't really help us in any way except the bit earlier Moscow-Uni and panic-Lib tech in case someone conjures up Edu&Philo from their back pocket.

Q2: Slavery or Caste? Since we delay Oxford whipping isn't so essential at this point actually and we have some nice workshoppable land (read: lack of hills) I'm liking the Caste idea that shyuhe brought up. Will also quicken the 2nd scientist for the tentative 2xbulb edu plan.

For my previous round there seems to be an agreement: no GP in Novgorod, no Gandhi trading, chop Moscow woods when there's something sensible to use the hammers for, adopt OR.

 

[mystyfly]

Well, my suggesting guilds was more meant like "tech towards guilds if we have to wait for a GS to arrive"...

Not sure abt Taj... I don't like it too much however with a few forests and ind we should get it quite quickly. Aest isn't well-known iirc and might be some use (sell for cash) as well as literature... Probably a good move but I have no strong opinion considering that question.

I guess we can stay in caste for now mostly because else the 2nd GS will take quite long... However, slavery would benefit especially our newer cities... If we build the Taj we can switch back to slavery then if we want... Not sure as well abt that but I'd probably stay in caste for now...

 

[babybluepants]

Yes to Taj. We can use free civic switches and a production boost right then to gear up for war. Also, with IND+forge+OR we get 2:1 gold ratio in failure, so that's fine, too. And, we won't have much to build anyway in the main cities, if we're not rushing to Oxford.

Do we really need to double-bulb? I mean, sure if we can, but I don't see it as necessary. I like getting Edu pre-Nat in case Gandhi speeds up towards Lib.

Caste is better. Good suggestion, shy. I totally just assumed we'd stick with Slavery...

Should we ditch some of the lower promo units? We're paying quite a bit of maintenance on them. If there's some CR3's or something, maybe better to up them to maces later...

 

[obsolete]

Also, with IND+forge+OR we get 2:1 gold ratio in failure, so that's fine, too.

Since each hammer is technically worth a little more than 3 gold, you are still getting short-changed