^ That means Lib in 2t... So we have two choices: bulb/Lib or GA/MT. Should we just have a vote? I'm for Lib.
Short fun game (immortal)
- Thread starter shyuhe
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shyuhe
Deity
I vote bulb/lib.
I also tested bribing caste revolts in a different game. My vassal Mao went from military science(2) to (365) after I asked him to adopt caste system so I'm pretty sure it forces anarchy
So I think it's worth the shot since we have ~480 beakers in overflow right now.
I also tested bribing caste revolts in a different game. My vassal Mao went from military science(2) to (365) after I asked him to adopt caste system so I'm pretty sure it forces anarchy
So I think it's worth the shot since we have ~480 beakers in overflow right now.
I vote for bulb/lib, for reasons stated in a couple of posts above (mainly the hurry to get Cuirs to be able to build something useful). I also vote for making the Nat trade and Caste bribe (if that really causes anarchy, it might be different if you tell your vassals what to do instead of bribing 
or maybe I was gravely mistaken after all?).
(mainly the hurry to get Cuirs to be able to build something useful). I also vote for making the Nat trade and Caste bribe (if that really causes anarchy, it might be different if you tell your vassals what to do instead of bribing or maybe I was gravely mistaken after all?).Bribing civic changes does cause anarchy. This forum can really be a cesspool of misinformation when it feels like it. 
EDIT: I could bet a lot that the "knowledge" that it doesn't has started from people testing it on SPI Civs/Civs in GA/Civs that have Jesus Dude
EDIT: I could bet a lot that the "knowledge" that it doesn't has started from people testing it on SPI Civs/Civs in GA/Civs that have Jesus Dude
Good to know. 
Vote yes on the Nat trade.
After Lib, St. Pete needs to complete NE and start grinding again. Moscow could get University, and some of the smaller cities obviously need infra, but I'd still build research in places like Novgorod, Rostov and the 3 Y's, if it helps get to Gunpowder faster. We're really bottlenecking with research atm.
Vote yes on the Nat trade.
After Lib, St. Pete needs to complete NE and start grinding again. Moscow could get University, and some of the smaller cities obviously need infra, but I'd still build research in places like Novgorod, Rostov and the 3 Y's, if it helps get to Gunpowder faster. We're really bottlenecking with research atm.
shyuhe
Deity
Ok, I'll go with the bulb/lib + Nat trade route since it looks like we have agreement. And yes I'll go bribe Bizzy to get... busy 
shyuhe
Deity
Ok, everything went more or less according to plan.
T(0): micro to crank bpt up over 500. Bulb education. Then I realize that we go to the upper half of the leader board and Bizzy won't trade with us any more. Doh
Well, we can still do this:
Thanks Bizzy! I also make this trade:
Now we need guilds to spread to one more civ before we can trade for it from Churchill.
T(1):
Yeah right Gandhi. Liberalism still open.
T(2): Liberalism in, take MT:
Set research to gunpowder in 3 turns. I micro cities so that they don't starve but we finish gunpowder in 3 turns.
T(3): Nada
T(4): Nada
T(5):
I stop here after I set builds to cuirassiers. I didn't revolt although I think we should revolt to slavery and start whipping like mad. We don't need research for a while:
T(0): micro to crank bpt up over 500. Bulb education. Then I realize that we go to the upper half of the leader board and Bizzy won't trade with us any more. Doh
Well, we can still do this:
Thanks Bizzy! I also make this trade:
Now we need guilds to spread to one more civ before we can trade for it from Churchill.
T(1):
Yeah right Gandhi. Liberalism still open.
T(2): Liberalism in, take MT:
Set research to gunpowder in 3 turns. I micro cities so that they don't starve but we finish gunpowder in 3 turns.
T(3): Nada
T(4): Nada
T(5):
I stop here after I set builds to cuirassiers. I didn't revolt although I think we should revolt to slavery and start whipping like mad. We don't need research for a while:
shyuhe
Deity
We should keep our eyes open for vassaling Churchill peacefully - we might be able to do it if we get enough power and he's still at war with Gandhi.
Roster:
shyuhe just played
Ras - AWOL
mysty - UP
Silu (on deck)
bbp
Roster:
shyuhe just played
Ras - AWOL
mysty - UP
Silu (on deck)
bbp
Awesome! He doesn't even have it now. I guess we were stressing out for nothing?
Everything's looking good...
Gandhi will trade Theo+Cons+Drama+Map+90g for Educ. Those three techs are pretty great when we're gearing up for war. We could immediately revolt to Theo+Slavery... What do you guys think?
Everything's looking good...
Gandhi will trade Theo+Cons+Drama+Map+90g for Educ. Those three techs are pretty great when we're gearing up for war. We could immediately revolt to Theo+Slavery... What do you guys think?
shyuhe
Deity
Bizzy probably stopped researching liberalism once the free tech went away. The AI tends to do that with its freebie beelines.
I'm ok with the trade with Gandhi. We might as well get the most we can out of these guys before we go grind them up. Is theo+slavery a one turn revolt? If so, I'd go for it.
I'm ok with the trade with Gandhi. We might as well get the most we can out of these guys before we go grind them up. Is theo+slavery a one turn revolt? If so, I'd go for it.
Nice set Something went our way for a change! Though maybe this means that in the next set everything will go to hell again.
I'd like to raise discussion about Slavery<->Staying in caste until the next GA at least (ditto for Theo, we'll have 2 promos either way). The GA is about 13-15 turns away (St. Pete can get the next GP in 6 turns). 1 turn revolts hurt a lot more in Quick than Normal, we have a lot of workshops and the possibility to make them even better pretty quick with Guilds and Chemistry. St. Pete's would be the only city where liberal whipping would be efficient, our cities are so damn big That all added to the frustration of whipping on Quick, the builds are always at 0 hammers or close to done already. Our happy cap speaks for whipping but I'm not sure it's overall more efficient than saving the turn for now and cranking units with workshops.
I think we should change EP to Biz to try to focus even a single city revolt - going for him takes a while so there's time to accumulate and he has the Chicken Pizza to boot (or did Gunpowder units ignore that def as well? I forget...).
Churchill doesn't seem to have Gold after all so could renegotiate that I guess. I got too fancy about reading the BUFFY UI I guess.
I think we could go Guilds next with all our workshops (and work towards Rifling), there's no telling when we will get it in a trade. Gandhi trade is OK, no reason to wait since of the techs we want he could only get Guilds and if he does we get it from Churchill.
Something went our way for a change! Though maybe this means that in the next set everything will go to hell again.I'd like to raise discussion about Slavery<->Staying in caste until the next GA at least (ditto for Theo, we'll have 2 promos either way). The GA is about 13-15 turns away (St. Pete can get the next GP in 6 turns). 1 turn revolts hurt a lot more in Quick than Normal, we have a lot of workshops and the possibility to make them even better pretty quick with Guilds and Chemistry. St. Pete's would be the only city where liberal whipping would be efficient, our cities are so damn big
That all added to the frustration of whipping on Quick, the builds are always at 0 hammers or close to done already. Our happy cap speaks for whipping but I'm not sure it's overall more efficient than saving the turn for now and cranking units with workshops.I think we should change EP to Biz to try to focus even a single city revolt - going for him takes a while so there's time to accumulate and he has the Chicken Pizza to boot (or did Gunpowder units ignore that def as well? I forget...).
Churchill doesn't seem to have Gold after all so could renegotiate that I guess. I got too fancy about reading the BUFFY UI I guess.
I think we could go Guilds next with all our workshops (and work towards Rifling), there's no telling when we will get it in a trade. Gandhi trade is OK, no reason to wait since of the techs we want he could only get Guilds and if he does we get it from Churchill.
shyuhe
Deity
I'm split about caste/slavery. Slavery is definitely more powerful for most of our cities since they mostly take >2 turns to build cuirassiers. Moscow and Novgorod shouldn't get whipped for obvious reasons. I'd like to build an army in 10-15 turns and I don't think that's feasible without whipping (or a golden age). I'm open to suggestions of course.
EP on Biz is fine.
If we're going to stay in caste, then yes we want guilds next. If we're going to whip, then going PP while hoping for a guilds trade is probably better.
I re-negotiated some of the trade deals on the last turn of my set.
EP on Biz is fine.
If we're going to stay in caste, then yes we want guilds next. If we're going to whip, then going PP while hoping for a guilds trade is probably better.
I re-negotiated some of the trade deals on the last turn of my set.
^^ Well, I'd probably do that in a solo game, but I have a general tendency to really undervalue Slavery. I haven't really studied the save too carefully or given it much thought, so I won't really argue for either right now...
Off the top of my head:
I think Theo still has a lot of value, since we're going up against 100% cities without siege - it opens up a third promo asap, which should significantly up the odds and, therefore, survival rate? The other thing is that Quick really shortens any tech advantage and that the AI can really rush defenders. I feel we should be blasting through Mao's south cities asap (before we would even get to a GA) and then going after Gandhi before he gets much stronger (caps Churchill with Cuirassiers or even gets to Rifling). Any turns shaved in this phase are good, IMO...
I don't know. I need to think through this a bit first. Let's say I'm in favour of Slavery for now, but still open to Caste/Workshop with some more argument.
EP should be on Biz, I agree. It was on Gandhi before my set, and I switched it to Churchill towards the end of the set. Stupid. Just that I was really wanting to know what he was researching at the time for some reason...
EDIT: x-post with shyuhe.
Off the top of my head:
I think Theo still has a lot of value, since we're going up against 100% cities without siege - it opens up a third promo asap, which should significantly up the odds and, therefore, survival rate? The other thing is that Quick really shortens any tech advantage and that the AI can really rush defenders. I feel we should be blasting through Mao's south cities asap (before we would even get to a GA) and then going after Gandhi before he gets much stronger (caps Churchill with Cuirassiers or even gets to Rifling). Any turns shaved in this phase are good, IMO...
I don't know. I need to think through this a bit first. Let's say I'm in favour of Slavery for now, but still open to Caste/Workshop with some more argument.
EP should be on Biz, I agree. It was on Gandhi before my set, and I switched it to Churchill towards the end of the set. Stupid. Just that I was really wanting to know what he was researching at the time for some reason...
EDIT: x-post with shyuhe.
Yeah, this is what I was thinking, too.
^ I forgot to mention that if we revolt now, our next GA is postponed by a lot, and I mean a lot, probably 30-50 turns more at least. Taking that into account staying 15 turns more in Caste suddenly looks a bit more enticing.
I agree with the above arguments about hurrying to get the choo-choo-kurasääri train going, but Mao isn't going to get any fancy defenses anytime soon either. That in mind we could think a bit more about our hammer output in the long term (next 50 turns or so) instead of the next 10 turns.
The slavery revolt is probably the textbook play here, I mainly wanted to open some discussion to not get in a backbone-induced rut (same with the Edu+Lib/straight MT discussion a couple pages back).
I agree with the above arguments about hurrying to get the choo-choo-kurasääri train going, but Mao isn't going to get any fancy defenses anytime soon either. That in mind we could think a bit more about our hammer output in the long term (next 50 turns or so) instead of the next 10 turns.
The slavery revolt is probably the textbook play here, I mainly wanted to open some discussion to not get in a backbone-induced rut (same with the Edu+Lib/straight MT discussion a couple pages back).
That's fair enough.Silu said:
I think we should try quantifying these things. This is Caste, without accounting for city growth, Guilds or anything:
Spoiler :
That's not too bad at all, I guess. I'm too busy right now, so maybe someone else could quantify Slavery. We most likely wouldn't whip Moscow or Novgorod at all, and I'm not sure what St. Pete would do under a Slavery scenario.
Note: I think we should send a chariot (maybe out of St. Pete), into Mao's territory asap to scout. The visible city isn't well defended at all. I think we can probably start as soon as 20+ Cuirassiers, and keep sending them out as we go?
EDIT: I'm not advocating either Caste or Slavery at this point... Need more thinking.
3 player rosters 4tw! My TS will probably be a thousand and one Cuirassiers, the big decision is the civicism now. Quantifying Slavery for the next 16 turns for comparison is very misleading as I already said, since 1) stacking whip anger makes it much less efficient after that 2) the GA will be postponed indefinitely. I'm a big fan of Caste here as Mao isn't getting any showstoppers soon, but I can be persuaded to follow a whipping plan, that is also very good but with a bit different upsides. I do think it would be better to go Slavery if our target would be Biz or Churchill, but with Mao I stand with Caste, 20 Cuirs in 11t doesn't sound half bad TBH, with a GA and Slavery 5 turns away after that With Slavery St. Pete would be aggressively whipping while grinding 2-3 specialists. This is a bit muddy also as we'd want to grind 2 different GPs and there are only slots for 2 scientists and 1 engineer IIRC.
Agree with about 20Cuirs->DoW on Mao. I don't think there are any big Qs except the civic and the tech path that depends on the civic choice. Guilds if Caste, maybe PP (and try to work towards rifling with optimal trades) with Slavery as suggested by shyuhe.
With Slavery St. Pete would be aggressively whipping while grinding 2-3 specialists. This is a bit muddy also as we'd want to grind 2 different GPs and there are only slots for 2 scientists and 1 engineer IIRC.Agree with about 20Cuirs->DoW on Mao. I don't think there are any big Qs except the civic and the tech path that depends on the civic choice. Guilds if Caste, maybe PP (and try to work towards rifling with optimal trades) with Slavery as suggested by shyuhe.
shyuhe
Deity
I'll try to look at the slavery numbers this weekend but I agree, that's really the only point of debate. If we stay in caste, we obviously want guilds first, if we go slavery, then PP (hoping for guilds in trade) then onwards towards rifling.
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