They might be close in power in general, but during a game, some options might be much better than others, depending on circumstances and planned strategy. Having a choice instead of random is still a meaningful advantage here.
Shoshone discussion
- Thread starter pineappledan
- Start date
pineappledan
Deity
Last thing I’ll say about this ruins bonus and then I’ll shut up.
The reason it exists goes back to Shoshone’s unique scout UU which was replaced by the encampment in Vox Populi. The unique ability to pick your ruin reward was on the UU, and moved onto the UA for all Shoshone recon units. It made more sense on a UU, because a ruins bonus obsoletes when the ruins are all gone, but that is okay on a UU because those also obsolete. Also, In vanilla you could get bad ruins, like a barbarian suddenly spawning next to you, so being able to pick rewards and never getting bad ones was a bigger benefit.
The reason Why that bonus exists at all and why the Shoshone had it in vanilla are sort of weak and a bit gross. They had a North American Indian civ, and many Indians were used as trackers and guides by white colonists. No special attention was paid to the Shoshone doing that, Sacajawea being the most famous Shoshone who guided and translated for the Lewis and Clark expedition, but she isn’t mentioned. Rather, the pathfinder stands in for every Indian who ever helped the Europeans move around the continent. The Pathfinder’s original civilopedia entry doesn’t even mention the Shoshone, but rather references the Pequot War, the Narraganset and Mohegan, drawing an equivalence between the Shoshone in the Great Basin and Algonquian tribes living on the opposite side of the continent:
So now that ruins have gone through yet another balancing pass, the ruins picking bonus is weakened again. It’s never had a particularly good reason to be here, but at this point it’s balance impact is so negligible it’s just flavour. That would be fine if it had some historical basis, but it doesn’t. So as long as no one seriously considers it a part of the UA’s power we’re still looking for a real 3rd ability to help the Shoshone out; the ruins picking can stay as long as it doesn’t get in the way of that.
That’s my opinion on the matter.
The reason it exists goes back to Shoshone’s unique scout UU which was replaced by the encampment in Vox Populi. The unique ability to pick your ruin reward was on the UU, and moved onto the UA for all Shoshone recon units. It made more sense on a UU, because a ruins bonus obsoletes when the ruins are all gone, but that is okay on a UU because those also obsolete. Also, In vanilla you could get bad ruins, like a barbarian suddenly spawning next to you, so being able to pick rewards and never getting bad ones was a bigger benefit.
The reason Why that bonus exists at all and why the Shoshone had it in vanilla are sort of weak and a bit gross. They had a North American Indian civ, and many Indians were used as trackers and guides by white colonists. No special attention was paid to the Shoshone doing that, Sacajawea being the most famous Shoshone who guided and translated for the Lewis and Clark expedition, but she isn’t mentioned. Rather, the pathfinder stands in for every Indian who ever helped the Europeans move around the continent. The Pathfinder’s original civilopedia entry doesn’t even mention the Shoshone, but rather references the Pequot War, the Narraganset and Mohegan, drawing an equivalence between the Shoshone in the Great Basin and Algonquian tribes living on the opposite side of the continent:
So I don’t actually think the recon bonus has a good thematic reason for being here either. Actually, it’s kind of essentializing and insulting.
So now that ruins have gone through yet another balancing pass, the ruins picking bonus is weakened again. It’s never had a particularly good reason to be here, but at this point it’s balance impact is so negligible it’s just flavour. That would be fine if it had some historical basis, but it doesn’t. So as long as no one seriously considers it a part of the UA’s power we’re still looking for a real 3rd ability to help the Shoshone out; the ruins picking can stay as long as it doesn’t get in the way of that.
That’s my opinion on the matter.
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Yes, my memory was blurry there, my bad. Still my point stands as in I think this mechanic is lame for an UA and could be seemlessly moved to the UI (where it already exists) to make room for a more palatable UA. But in the end that is just my humble opinion and I have no problem if people like it as it is. I'm surprised since for me that civ is by far the most boring one (with Poland in a category of its own). In Civ6 (even with the game being half baked) I liked the border blobbing mechanic of Russia (very close to Civ5 Shoshone's) alongside its other synergies. I don't bring it as in it should be an inspiration but just to make clear I have nothing against that ability per se.
To me the 20% defense is in the kit only to have a part of the ability effective for the whole game as the rest of the UA vanishes into nothingness very early.
Lol, C'mon. How is being good at scouting an insult or racist?
I agree with Pinappledan here. It's an ability that exists only because we see that civ through a colonial/post-colonial prism. Any people are good at finding their ways on their homeland, so if we think the natives were that good at it, it's only because of the legacy of how the US saw them at the time. I'm sure you can find the same kind of accounts in the colonial history of Africa, it was just not as impactful in the collective memory as the frontier mythology of the US.
Plus, as I said earlier, translating that "fact" routed in 18th/19th century history into an ability tied only to the ancient era is like saying "those natives are good at walking in the wilds since the dawn of man".
PS: and that is also why I don't like the +20% defense and why I brought up (albeit wrongly) the Vanilla Ethiopia similarity. I think you could say that any culture is fighting better when defending their homeland (think Vietnam, think Ukraine, think anything but France in the 40's
). It's like that old imperialistic trick going back to Caesar "of all the Gauls, the Belgae are the bravest". If we want to keep it in their UA because it's a legacy of vanilla Civ and people like it from a gameplay point of view, it's fine for me, but it's really not interesting from a flavor point of view imo.
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Well, yeah, however we see and remember a civ impacts the flavor of it. Isn't that the point of the flavor? Like, for example, we see Germans as a productive nation, so they have UB that increase production of a city by 4% per each CS TR. It's not how it worked in reality, but that's just a gameplay implementation of the civ. I wouldn't say that being productive is racist or insulting either.
pineappledan
Deity
Tbh I’m not sure what compelled the original devs to pick the Shoshone. Their history doesn’t give a lot of material to make a lot out of.
They’re a relatively small collection of nomadic tribes, not organized into a powerful confederacy like the Blackfoot, who were expanding and pushing the Shoshone South and west into the desert when the Europeans first made contact. With the exception of the Comanches, They didn’t have major conflicts with any success against European encroachment. Pocatello led a tribe of maybe 200 people, and his main achievement is evading Mormon and US Army death squads until he could find US government representative who would rather make a deal with him than exterminate him. More of an Oscar Schindler character than a great leader of men.
It seems like more of a case where the devs shopped around for a group that would be supportive of being depicted in the game after the Pueblo civ fell through after consulting with the tribe.
They’re a relatively small collection of nomadic tribes, not organized into a powerful confederacy like the Blackfoot, who were expanding and pushing the Shoshone South and west into the desert when the Europeans first made contact. With the exception of the Comanches, They didn’t have major conflicts with any success against European encroachment. Pocatello led a tribe of maybe 200 people, and his main achievement is evading Mormon and US Army death squads until he could find US government representative who would rather make a deal with him than exterminate him. More of an Oscar Schindler character than a great leader of men.
It seems like more of a case where the devs shopped around for a group that would be supportive of being depicted in the game after the Pueblo civ fell through after consulting with the tribe.
Except that’s not what is happening here. It would be like the Germans getting a unique galleon and the devs making a write up about it that says “boy those Germanics sure made some good boats. The white man really gave those Ottomans a drubbing at the Battle of Lepanto.” Like, sure the Germans made galleons, but that is a complete and thorough dereliction of even the barest research or specificity. There were Shoshone guides and pathfinders they could have named as examples, one of which was on their Money, but they couldn’t even be bothered to do that.
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The problem is I'm not ruins on is the default setting. It seems about 50/50, and add to that the fact the AI can't use the ability at all.
I'd say that the Germans (I'm not one myself so correct me if I'm wrong) mostly see themselves as efficient industrialists, so here the (very positive by the way) view the game have on them matches their own.
I love the civ franchise but it's very Eurocentric and their efforts to bring more diversity, which is good ofc, remain often simplistic.
Once again, I don't know much about the Shoshone but finding your ways in the mountains and the desert is like civilization 101. It just stands out in our western minds because those wide unknown pieces of wilds where an obstacle to us and it created the whole far west mythology.
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pineappledan
Deity
Also fun fact: Pocatello wasn’t the leader’s real name. White people just started calling him that because it “sounded native”. His name was Tondzaosha.
Ruins on is just the default setting that the game gives you. What players do in changing the default that is given is a different thing altogether. If for instance 80% of people turn off ruins, then that should just be changed and Shoshone should get a different identity, but the burden of proof belongs to whoever wants a change.
Any of the proposals thus far that get rid of any ancient ruins affiliation lack a wow factor to me or are even actively harmful to be mishandled by the AI instead of just neutral. I think the solution would be here to teach the AI how to use it properly, instead of just discarding a unique mechanic altogether. In fact, some seem to agree that the ancient ruin rewards are so close together now, which would imply that the AI already does use it properly, because there isn't much of a meaningful difference.
I'll say it's hard to already be able to say if it still feels as great to be able to choose with the new ancient ruins rewards balance before having played with them.
It's probably fair to say the best first ruin pick is Reveal Tiles, which basically gives you Trailblazer 2 and free run of the map. I think the second ruin might have some contention, I usually rush Upgrade because the +1 sight on scouts is pretty good that early in the game (and it keeps them safer from barbs), but I think there's plenty to be said for any of the economy options (free tech/science is always good, production and gold have niches for rushing either buildings or wonders). So even if it was boiled down to AI choosing Reveal on ruin 1, that would be better than random choice.
But that still seems like a lot of effort to perpetuate a "bonus" that 1/8th of civs will get by chance anyway.
But that still seems like a lot of effort to perpetuate a "bonus" that 1/8th of civs will get by chance anyway.
The AI could probably make use of something like
"begin the game with all ancient ruins revealed"
More vision quest than great expanse.
On the way people play...
If the default option is wrong, it should be changed by congress supermajority vote.
(I wonder how many people play with events on?
)
But if this is like 50/50, maybe it is better just to remove and replace with something else.
Having said that, new balance to ruins might change the ratio.
(btw am I right in thinking ruins don't DC multiplayer games anymore?)
"begin the game with all ancient ruins revealed"
More vision quest than great expanse.
On the way people play...
If the default option is wrong, it should be changed by congress supermajority vote.
(I wonder how many people play with events on?
)But if this is like 50/50, maybe it is better just to remove and replace with something else.
Having said that, new balance to ruins might change the ratio.
(btw am I right in thinking ruins don't DC multiplayer games anymore?)
pineappledan
Deity
If you look at the ruins changes:
It really does seem like the goal was to eliminate any standouts, thus making the choice of ruins not matter w.r.t. power, and only maybe w.r.t. timing.
the map reveal is reduced from 61 to 37 XP, along with the accompanying reduction in tiles, so I'm not so sure it's the absolute bee's knees like it used to be. The rebalance nerfs some of the best choices like free tech, faith and gold, and buffs some of the weaker ones like production. He also plans to disable free tiles for Shoshone entirely1. List of ruins:
2. Rebalance some types of ruins:
- Population: +1
to the nearest city. Cannot be chosen if empire is unhappy or player has no cities.
- Culture: +15
to empire, scaling with game speed and era, multiplied by (number of policies excluding free ones / 2) (min. 1). Affected by unit type and promotions.
- Pantheon Faith: gain amount of
required for pantheon (50 in standard), scaling with era. Affected by unit type and promotions. Cannot be chosen before turn 20, if player has founded a pantheon, or if any player has founded a religion.
- Prophet Faith: gain amount of
- Gold: +
to empire. Amount is 50, 55, 60, ..., 145, with 5% occurrence for each, scaling with game speed and era. Affected by unit type and promotions. Random amount is fixed for the same ruin on the same turn.
- Map: reveal a random unrevealed city within range 10 (heavier weight for farther away cities), and all tiles within range 4 of it. Can only be chosen if a recon unit claims the ruin. The unit gains 1XP per revealed tile (up to 61XP).
- Tech: gain a random Ancient Era tech that's not currently being researched but can be researched. Cannot be chosen if there's no tech available to pick from. Random tech is fixed for the same ruin on the same turn, but switching research can affect the result if you really want to abuse it.
- Upgrade Unit: upgrade the unit claiming the ruin. Cannot be chosen if the unit has already upgraded by a ruin before, cannot be upgraded, or the ruin is not claimed by a unit.
- Production: +30
to the nearest city, scaling with game speed and era. Affected by unit type and promotions. Cannot be chosen if player has no cities.
- Golden Age: +200
to empire, scaling with game speed and era. Affected by unit type and promotions. Cannot be chosen before turn 30, or if player is already in a Golden Age.
- Tiles: the nearest city gains 4 neutral tiles, as if it naturally grows 4 times. Does not increase next border growth cost. Triggers instant yields from Spain UA, but not from other sources. Cannot be chosen if player has no cities. CAN be chosen if there are no tiles available to grow.
- Experience: +20XP to the unit claiming the ruin. Does not scale with game speed or era. Affected by unit type and promotions. Cannot be chosen before turn 10, if the unit is a recon unit, the unit cannot gain promotions, or the ruin is not claimed by a unit.
- Worker: gain a Worker on the ruin tile. Settler difficulty only.
- Settler: gain a Settler on the ruin tile. Settler difficulty only. Likely the only way Venice gets a Settler.
- Pantheon Faith: reduce amount of faith to 60% of a pantheon. Now it merely helps you towards founding a pantheon rather than immediately enabling it, if you delay Shrine.
- Prophet Faith: reduce amount of faith to 25% of the next Great Prophet cost, and stop scaling with era. Religion founding shouldn't be too random.
- Gold: remove random part, give constant 100
- Map: reduce reveal radius to 3. XP reduced to 37 as a result.
- Tech: removed. It's too random and too strong.
- Production: increase to 50
- Golden Age: removed. It's undesirable to have a Golden Age on turn 30.
- SPECIAL NOTE: If any of the proposals that affect the cost of the initial Golden Age are passed, the golden age ruin will NOT be removed.
- Tiles: cannot be chosen if player has a trait that benefits from buying/naturally gaining tiles, or if the nearest city has no tiles available to grow.
- Science: NEW, +35
, scaling with game speed and era. This gives ~60% of an early Ancient Era tech, similar to the Culture ruin which gives 60% of the first policy.
It really does seem like the goal was to eliminate any standouts, thus making the choice of ruins not matter w.r.t. power, and only maybe w.r.t. timing.
The AI could probably make use of something like
"begin the game with all ancient ruins revealed"
More vision quest than great expanse.
On the way people play...
If the default option is wrong, it should be changed by congress supermajority vote.
(I wonder how many people play with events on?
But if this is like 50/50, maybe it is better just to remove and replace with something else.
Having said that, new balance to ruins might change the ratio.
(btw am I right in thinking ruins don't DC multiplayer games anymore?)
Yeah events was the first thing I though of, no one seems to mention them so I assume most have them off. I only see them when I reset and forget to turn them off. But they are the default.
The slow MP game currently going on was with ruins on so they seem fine, and this was from a patch quite a while ago. Events did however crash it...
Ah, I did forget the radius nerf was going to be pretty big. Although 37xp is still TB I + II on standard. Epic still needs 45xp if I remember for level 3.
Events I always want to turn on, but after the first handful of games they were so repetitive, and didn't always make that much sense. A lot of the time I was left feeling "well sure, if I hadn't spent my gold reserves last turn I might go for a Harbor... ..." and just having to pick neutral choices no matter what. Or the whole idea around needing a farm/lumber mill/whatever near the city to proc events, but if I never build farms, then I never starve. What? No sense.
Events I always want to turn on, but after the first handful of games they were so repetitive, and didn't always make that much sense. A lot of the time I was left feeling "well sure, if I hadn't spent my gold reserves last turn I might go for a Harbor... ..." and just having to pick neutral choices no matter what. Or the whole idea around needing a farm/lumber mill/whatever near the city to proc events, but if I never build farms, then I never starve. What? No sense.
They named an achievement after her!
No, they don't benefit from buying/naturally gaining tiles.
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Shoshone ideas:
Ability 1: Timbisha (Death Valley)
Repaired tiles gained +1 +1 
. Upon adopting a social policy, 5 tiles around each city are pillaged. (selection can either be random or based on spy sabotage logic)
Ability 2: Timbisha 2!
Gained 55 whenever a tile is repaired, scaling with era. Upon adopting a social policy, 5 tiles around each city are pillaged.
What do you think about the concept? I'd like to see the Shoshone become more econ-focused, with a niche that interacts with pillaged tiles. While most civ gained benefits to pillage others, the Shoshone interact in reverse, gaining benefits from getting pillaged tiles.
Ability 1: Timbisha (Death Valley)
Repaired tiles gained +1
+1 . Upon adopting a social policy, 5 tiles around each city are pillaged. (selection can either be random or based on spy sabotage logic)Spoiler Reasoning :
Ability 2: Timbisha 2!
Gained 5
5 whenever a tile is repaired, scaling with era. Upon adopting a social policy, 5 tiles around each city are pillaged.Spoiler Reasoning :
What do you think about the concept? I'd like to see the Shoshone become more econ-focused, with a niche that interacts with pillaged tiles. While most civ gained benefits to pillage others, the Shoshone interact in reverse, gaining benefits from getting pillaged tiles.
usadefcon1
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2016
- Messages
- 595
Just Brainstorming here
The Great Expanse:
Unimproved tiles give yields as if they were improved. Unable to use specialists if they would cause Urbanization.
The Great Expanse:
Unimproved tiles give yields as if they were improved. Unable to use specialists if they would cause Urbanization.
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