Shoshone

[Rekk]

Regardless of what happens to the UA, if people aren't using the UU, then it needs to be changed.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Regardless of what happens to the UA, if people aren't using the UU, then it needs to be changed.

I agree. Let's focus on the UU. I know people want other things as well, but let's start with something we can agree needs improvement.

Edit: we've been over this a couple of times so here are some of the ideas that have been proposed.

1) Comanche Riders get science on pillaging tiles

2) Comanche Riders can steal strategics through pillaging

3) Comanche Riders don't cost horses

4) Comanche Riders move earlier in the tech tree

 

[Bruhmoment]

I'd vote more for either the UA or the UI, but sure - let's do the Comanche Rider first.
My thinking sways to my opinion, because as you know - the Comanche Rider won't make the Shoshone rise up an entire tier... or will it?

 

[pineappledan]

My thinking sways to my opinion, because as you know - the Comanche Rider won't make the Shoshone rise up an entire tier... or will it?

This is the heart of my disagreement with you. Shoshone don't Need a buff of any sort, they are solid B tier already. This isn't a balance concern, this is about people not having a good mouthfeel when they play the civ. Not having much use for the UU is bad mouthfeel. The UA buffing a game mechanic that a lot of people just turn off is bad mouthfeel. There is certainly room for Shoshone to be better, since they aren't already high tier, but if we are buffing them, it should be to make them more fun.

 

[Bruhmoment]

This is the heart of my disagreement with you. Shoshone don't Need a buff of any sort, they are solid B tier already. This isn't a balance concern, this is about people not having a good mouthfeel when they play the civ. Not having much use for the UU is bad mouthfeel. The UA buffing a game mechanic that a lot of people just turn off is bad mouthfeel. There is certainly room for Shoshone to be better, since they aren't already high tier, but if we are buffing them, it should be to make them more fun.

I heard someone say the worst civs are: Shoshone, Germany (before patch), and Siam. Shoshone haven't changed, so how could they have risen up about 3 tiers?

 

[pineappledan]

@Milae ’s opinions are his own; I am not aware of any other player who would rank Shoshone as low as he did.

 

[Bruhmoment]

@Milae ’s opinions are his own; I am not aware of any other player who would rank Shoshone as low as he did.

Depending on what start shoshone get, they can either be really bad or really good. Plains are obviously shoshone's best spot, but if god of the open sky is taken, it'll be a slightly above average civ. If you have no land to expand? Even worse

 

[stii]

I don't think they are quite as bad as Milae but I think they are quite a bit below average.

Also I assume this ranking is for deity which can change thing quite a bit.

 

[pineappledan]

Depending on what start shoshone get, they can either be really bad or really good. Plains are obviously shoshone's best spot, but if god of the open sky is taken, it'll be a slightly above average civ. If you have no land to expand? Even worse

I think you're playing Shoshone wrong. You shouldn't be boosting other improvements to compete with your UI early.

The UA and the ancient era UI combined means you have lots of land to place your very strong early encampments on. your encampments give +4 yields, better than all but very best luxury tiles. Boosting pastures to compete with your encampments is not playing to your own strengths; you should be adopting some belief that boosts some buildings, or gives faith through some other method, because your encampments mean you already have strong tiles to work with good growth and production, and a source of culture.

Shoshone don't need a strong starting position, because the encampment is a solid tile that can be placed all over.

 

[Bruhmoment]

I think you're playing Shoshone wrong. You shouldn't be boosting other improvements to compete with your UI early.

The UA and the ancient era UI combined means you have lots of land to place your very strong early encampments on. your encampments give +4 yields, better than all but very best luxury tiles. Boosting pastures to compete with your encampments is not playing to your own strengths; you should be adopting some belief that boosts some buildings, or gives faith through some other method, because your encampments mean you already have strong tiles to work with good growth and production, and a source of culture.

Shoshone don't need a strong starting position, because the encampment is a solid tile that can be placed all over.

You could say that considering they can be built in snow and tundra, but they only get 2 boosts.
Shoshone don't specialize in early warfare unlike the Huns, which also have an early improvement which can be built in - Plains... (isn't shoshone supposed to have that?), meaning that the only thing that they can be used for is food and production (IIRC there's culture, but I don't think it makes a big enough difference).
God of the open sky also has a +1 faith and culture bonus for every 2 plains/grassland tiles being worked, which if used to it's fullest extent, can yield some very nice faith.
I'll agree with the production though, as if you build it in grassland you will have 4 food 1 production 1 culture tiles, but that will not scale very well later into the game.

 

[pineappledan]

It's 211, which is very strong in ancient, and then tapers off. As I said, I am not opposed to one of the tech boosts being a bit stronger. You were talking about early game and pantheon choices though, and Open Sky is just a bad pick.

 

[chicorbeef]

Open Sky is still a good pantheon for Shoshone, you need to put Encampments on flat land and Plains/Grassland have the best base yields compared to other flat land tiles.

Anyway, I think we should come to an agreement on the Comanche Rider before anything else. Imo, I think the best buff would be having it available at Rifling instead of Military Science: Rifling already has extra incentive as Shoshone as it buffs Encampments, and it's a key warmonger tech anyway as it unlocks Field Guns, so getting your UU at the same time would make Shohsone's industrial push stronger.

Flavor wise, you could probably say it represents how Shoshone quickly adopted using American rifles for their own purposes, and not having a formal military so not needing military science would make sense.

If we want to make room for another unique promotion, I say we should remove the chance to withdraw. Shoshone already have mobility bonuses so it's not really that necessary and personally I kind of dislike this promotion because of its RNG nature.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I really like the chance to withdraw but I understand people's frustration with RNG so I'm not going to protest too greatly.

I'm glad we are at least talking about the same subject for the moment. Moving Shoshone Riders earlier is something I would be fine with!

 

[Rekk]

Could someone explain while withdraw vs melee is bad on this unit? Surely 70% chance to move and avoid large amounts of damage is better than being wiped out? They aren't meant to be used as movement blockers so they don't really have a position to be forced out of

 

[azum4roll]

Could someone explain while withdraw vs melee is bad on this unit? Surely 70% chance to move and avoid large amounts of damage is better than being wiped out? They aren't meant to be used as movement blockers so they don't really have a position to be forced out of

It overlaps with Camel Archers, for one.

 

[stii]

Generally by this point in the game both human and AIs have quite a lot of units. So withdraw often won't work because the unit ends up blocked in.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Regardless, chance to withdraw isn't negatively affecting the unit. What do people think about ways that we can improve the Comanche Rider? For example moving it earlier in the tech tree.

 

[eldouderino]

Not sure if it's doable code-wise, but could it become available after any known civ reaserches rifling for example ? It would definitely make it available way earlier, without having to beeline the bottom of the tech tree. Sounds a bit random though

 

[Rekk]

I definitely think a boost to the rewards for pillaging would be good. Production to the unit's city of origin or science.

The Comanche rider isn't for conquering and it's not for defense, so I think it should further incentivize raiding.

 

[Stalker0]

Let me add this in an alternative idea. this idea would be an addition to the shoshone's current suite, not a change.

When founding your capital, two ancient ruins appear.

Here is what I'm thinking:

• Shoshone's balance and interestingness is heavily influenced by whether ancient ruins are on or not, and I would argue this setting is off more often than many other options (for example I would bet a much greater % of people use spies than ancient ruins). However, by guaranteeing Shoshone two ancient ruins (whether the feature is on or not), would give Shoshone some consistency regardless of setting.

• Shoshone lacks a real power spike. Encampments are "nice", more terrain is "nice", comanche riders are "nice". But I would argue none of these generate a true power spike for the civ, and I think that's one of the reasons they feel lackluster. Ancient Ruins are in theory their power spike but others have noted that ruin balance is decent and so the Shoshone aren't necessarily getting more power than anyone else. However, if we ensured they got a couple of ruin bonuses beyond anyone else....that gives them an early game power spike that they can enjoy.

Shameless requoting myself to get this at least a little visibility.

On the Comanche, I think PAD's strategic pillage idea is really cool (now I'm assuming its just a copy, I think a true "steal" would have too many issues or other ramifications). It creates a very unique and distinctive playstyle for the Shoshone.... you can actually engage in late wars strictly for the purpose of boosting your aluminum and oil through pillage tactics. I certainly don't think its OP....I mean compared to Russia its going to take a LOT of pillaging before you get to those strategic resource levels.

I will echo that the withdraw on melee is "nice" but it comes up less often than you would think. Between not enough space to withdraw, or the simple fact that if I'm skirmishing correctly I shouldn't be hit in melee anyway. Generally if my skirmisher is taking melee damage its because I wanted it to (aka I sent it in as mobile beef to hold a key spot for a round or something, which skimishers on open terrain can do alright).... in those cases I don't want the unit to move!!!


Another option might be to give them Survialism III.... auto heal and such would be pretty cool abilities for them to have.