Should college/university be free?

[Taliesin]

Free university education is a socially regressive policy, because the average taxpayer is less well-off than the average university student, both at the point of attendance and over a lifetime. It's the poor subsidising the rich. Another problem is that taxpayers will tend to seek accountability from a "free" university, which might subject academic decisions to gross political influence.

The loan systems that Mise described are a much better idea.

 

[History_Buff]

Free, no. But extremely cheap, in the range of a couple hundred USD/CAD a month. Just enough to keep people from going for no reason, and taking up space.

As for those who say a student should pay for it, as they will earn more, an educated populace is a public good, and we all benifit from it. That's why the government should be paying it.

Even inflation tied, universal student loans would be nice. But up here, many kids can't even get student loans, depending on how much money their parents have. Which is great in theory, but what if you and your parents aren't on the best of terms?

 

[Elrohir]

Not on the federal level. And I think the state involvement should be limited to giving scholarships only to those who have shown great initiative and intelligence in the lower levels, but cannot afford to go to college at all without outside help.

I don't think so.

In Quebec especially, it should be more expensive, and to compensate they should give more funding to people who can't afford it.

that way richer students fund poorer ones, but it all stays within the education department.

Could you explain to me why richer students should be forced to pay for poorer students to go to college? And why stop at college? Why not car insurance, so that the poor students can get cars too? Or health insurance, or food, or rent, or....I'm sure you see my point.

 

[Rhymes]

Could you explain to me why richer students should be forced to pay for poorer students to go to college? And why stop at college? Why not car insurance, so that the poor students can get cars too? Or health insurance, or food, or rent, or....I'm sure you see my point.

Because education should be accessible to everybody, there should be no situation in which someone that wants to go to college can't do it because of financial issues.

Having an educated population is needed in order to have a prosper economy and qualified citizen.
So this covers the point as why they shouldn't pay for cars, insurance, etc...

Now how can you make it so that everybody has access to college? One solution which I don't approve is to make tuition fees very cheap. It's not a good idea for reasons mentioned in this thread.

the other option is to keep tuition fees high, and give government funded scholarships to students who can't afford it. And then arises the question: who should pay for those scholarships?
My answer to this is "the other students", I don't believe it would be right to make the taxpayers who never went to college pay for a service that they never used.

that way, everybody who wants to go to college will be able to, and this is a very solid investment in the country's economy.

 

[scipian]

I'll just say that it's really easy to go to a state university for free. My brother easily got free tuition and worked at Kroger's for a summer to pay for room and board. Once he was there, he just did some easy work at the computer lab to pay for future room and board.

 

[Elrohir]

Because education should be accessible to everybody, there should be no situation in which someone that wants to go to college can't do it because of financial issues.

Ideally, yes. But that doesn't mean the government should insure that.

Having an educated population is needed in order to have a prosper economy and qualified citizen.
So this covers the point as why they shouldn't pay for cars, insurance, etc...

And having a healthy populace is necessary for a good economy and efficient citizens. How can they work if they don't have proper nutrition, or medical benefits? You monster!

Now how can you make it so that everybody has access to college? One solution which I don't approve is to make tuition fees very cheap. It's not a good idea for reasons mentioned in this thread.

the other option is to keep tuition fees high, and give government funded scholarships to students who can't afford it. And then arises the question: who should pay for those scholarships?
My answer to this is "the other students", I don't believe it would be right to make the taxpayers who never went to college pay for a service that they never used.

that way, everybody who wants to go to college will be able to, and this is a very solid investment in the country's economy.

So your solution is to take even more money from certain students to pay for the poorer students? What? That's ridiculous. I shouldn't have to pay for another student to go to college unless I want to. That is blatant thievery, and nothing more. It would be better to have the government simply subsidize it directly with tax dollars, at least that would be stealing less from more people, rather than penalizing fewer people for more, when they could least afford it.

 

[Kosez]

Universities are free at where I live. That's cool. What is not cool is that they are extremely bad. Really. Teaching process is like 100 years old and stuff. When you graduate you know nothing about things you should learn at university. Well, virtually nothing.

I don't know, I guess quality is somewhat correlated to the question of fees. But I know it could be different. Even universities with less money could offer good education.

I don't know, I'm pretty disappointed in our universities, but I don't have $ for a proper Anglo-American one.

 

[Rhymes]

Ideally, yes. But that doesn't mean the government should insure that.


And having a healthy populace is necessary for a good economy and efficient citizens. How can they work if they don't have proper nutrition, or medical benefits? You monster!


So your solution is to take even more money from certain students to pay for the poorer students? What? That's ridiculous. I shouldn't have to pay for another student to go to college unless I want to. That is blatant thievery, and nothing more. It would be better to have the government simply subsidize it directly with tax dollars, at least that would be stealing less from more people, rather than penalizing fewer people for more, when they could least afford it.

Yes well you have to understand that in Quebec, where I live, the tuition fees are about the lowest in north america. In fact, before next year, they hadn't been raised in more then 10 years.

Now our economy can't afford more expenditures and can't support the loan/scholarship programs. So it only makes sense that we raise tuition fees, and give scholarships to those who REALLY can't afford it. That, way, we arent really penalizing the richer students, but only making them pay a fairer price for the service they get in order to allow the government to continue it's standard programs.

I'm saying this because I understood that the solution depends on the political setting around it. If the prices were already at a similar level then the national average, I wouldn't suggest this solution, but either better loan programs, or reorganizing the government's budget.

 

[Elrohir]

Yes well you have to understand that in Quebec, where I live, the tuition fees are about the lowest in north america. In fact, before next year, they hadn't been raised in more then 10 years.

Now our economy can't afford more expenditures and can't support the loan/scholarship programs. So it only makes sense that we raise tuition fees, and give scholarships to those who REALLY can't afford it. That, way, we arent really penalizing the richer students, but only making them pay a fairer price for the service they get in order to allow the government to continue it's standard programs.

I'm saying this because I understood that the solution depends on the political setting around it. If the prices were already at a similar level then the national average, I wouldn't suggest this solution, but either better loan programs, or reorganizing the government's budget.

So because your government is so socialistic that it can't afford to give good deals to the poorer students, the richer students have to pay extra money? How is that at all fair? You shouldn't penalize people for being born rich any more than they should be for being born poor.

 

[Rhymes]

Ideally, yes. But that doesn't mean the government should insure that.

Well who else could??

And having a healthy populace is necessary for a good economy and efficient citizens. How can they work if they don't have proper nutrition, or medical benefits? You monster!

.

Well we already have a health care system to redistribute wealth among people who need medical attention. One problem at a time please

So yes, every aspects of society that affects the economy should be regulated by the government, they just have to learn not to overdo it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Public high school education in America is free and generally terrible. Why perpetuate it to the college level? A college education is not suited to everyone and encouraging those for whom it is a waste of time to go is stupid. The economic benefits of a college education should come to those who actually want toearn them and are willing to make the effort. A democratic society needs (should have) and educated populace that know how to think. We have failed to achieve that with 12 years of public education. Why would anyone expect it to improve by adding 4 more years to the process?

Higher education should be for those who are willing to pay for it. NM offers free tuition for any HS graduate who can maintain a 2.0 average at a NM University. Most who use it can't maintain the grades or drop out before they finish. They are woefully unprepared for college and dumb down the experience for everyone else.

 

[Rhymes]

So because your government is so socialistic that it can't afford to give good deals to the poorer students, the richer students have to pay extra money? How is that at all fair? You shouldn't penalize people for being born rich any more than they should be for being born poor.

our government can't afford to give good deals because the previous government failed to keep the tuition fees at a fair price. Raising tuition fees to there fair value isn't penalizing rich students, it's making the system the way it's supposed to be in the first place.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

It already is free-ish.
Where i am right now at Informatics it's like this:
There are 95 spots for students.
45 of them are FREE - only IF you are in the first 45 in the admission test
50 of them are for the rest.

It is rather reasonable.

100% free ? That's INSANE.

 

[Atropos]

Those who go to a good university will, on average, make far more than the rest of population.

Tuition subsidies, therefore, work out (on average) to the poor being charged for the education of the middle classes, since the body of taxpayers is poorer over their lives than the body of college students.

 

[Integral]

Lots of good thinking on this thread. Mind if I jump in?

100% free college education is nearly impossible in the United States given our current budget. There are about 12 million undergraduate students in the USA, and about 3.5 million graduate students. College costs range from a low of about $14,000 per year for in-state schools, up to about $47,000 for upper-end private schools. Let's take a broad average and say that the average student pays $20,000 per year for his/her education. Thus, 15,500,000 students x $20,000 per year = $310,000,000,000 per year.

For comparison, the total defense budget is about $510 billion per year, and current total education spending (federal and state) is $600 billion per year with $108 billion of that going to higher education. Thus, at the national level, this would increase the education budget by 50% and quadruple higher education spending. I don't know what other programs the government would cut, but that's a major shift in expenses.

Free college education would be nice if we could somehow pay for it.

Integral

 

[Birdjaguar]

Lots of good thinking on this thread. Mind if I jump in?

100% free college education is nearly impossible in the United States given our current budget. There are about 12 million undergraduate students in the USA, and about 3.5 million graduate students. College costs range from a low of about $14,000 per year for in-state schools, up to about $47,000 for upper-end private schools. Let's take a broad average and say that the average student pays $20,000 per year for his/her education. Thus, 15,500,000 students x $20,000 per year = $310,000,000,000 per year.

For comparison, the total defense budget is about $510 billion per year, and current total education spending (federal and state) is $600 billion per year with $108 billion of that going to higher education. Thus, at the national level, this would increase the education budget by 50% and quadruple higher education spending. I don't know what other programs the government would cut, but that's a major shift in expenses.

Free college education would be nice if we could somehow pay for it.

Integral

Welcome to OT Integral. New ideas and input are always appreciated in every thread here.

 

[Elrohir]

our government can't afford to give good deals because the previous government failed to keep the tuition fees at a fair price. Raising tuition fees to there fair value isn't penalizing rich students, it's making the system the way it's supposed to be in the first place.

You yourself said that "the other students....should pay for those scholarships".

Let's try a little role reversal. If we were to make, say, black students pay more tuition, to effectively pay for scholarships for white students, everyone would scream bloody murder about racism and bigotry and how we were robbing the blacks and so on. And you know what? They'd be right. I fail to see a difference here.

Additionally, you never answered why it's the government's job to do this. Why can't the federal government stay out of this? The government usually screws things up when it tries to do big things, the default position should be the government staying out, unless there is a compelling reason for the government to take charge.

Lots of good thinking on this thread. Mind if I jump in?

100% free college education is nearly impossible in the United States given our current budget. There are about 12 million undergraduate students in the USA, and about 3.5 million graduate students. College costs range from a low of about $14,000 per year for in-state schools, up to about $47,000 for upper-end private schools. Let's take a broad average and say that the average student pays $20,000 per year for his/her education. Thus, 15,500,000 students x $20,000 per year = $310,000,000,000 per year.

For comparison, the total defense budget is about $510 billion per year, and current total education spending (federal and state) is $600 billion per year with $108 billion of that going to higher education. Thus, at the national level, this would increase the education budget by 50% and quadruple higher education spending. I don't know what other programs the government would cut, but that's a major shift in expenses.

Free college education would be nice if we could somehow pay for it.

Integral

Welcome to CFC OT. Good reasoning and facts.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

No, there is no reason the taxpayer needs to pay for other kids to go to college. Private scholarships, and university scholarships do a good job of helping those who are good students afford college.

 

[amadeus]

Graduates earn far more on average than non-graduates, so they certainly pay it back in taxes...

So in a way, it's a "loan" being given to students. Interesting concept.

I'm not sure how we can afford for it to be "free", without making some budget cutbacks in other areas.

Surely, the Pell Grant program and Subsidized Loans programs could be expanded. I would like to see Federal Govt. Assisstance to states in lowering state college tution, or enacting tution freezes. Even public schools are becoming more and more expensive, and students can't afford to work 30 hours a week, and take 5 classes a quarter, and expect to learn anything.

Instead of demanding the government step in and attempt to squash tuition hikes, why don't you petition the colleges? They're the ones creating asinine new courses, giving tenure to lazy professors, and undermining the ability for students to pay for their education.

If you invite the government in to solve the problem, they will inadvertently create another problem; universities will then complain that they're underfunded from the government.

Our university is notorious for this, demanding more money and raising tuition even higher. The U. treats this state like it's the U.S. embassy in Teheran.

 

[MobBoss]

I think it should be free for veterans.