Should Firaxis Bring Back Stalin

[GeneralZift]

Particularly chosen Stalin because he's modern, would make for a change of pace from typical Warmongering Leaders, who are usually with exclusively early to mid game.
I can definitely understand the argument. Maybe there's a Russian or USSR leader that is less controversial that could still make for a good, modern, militaristic pick?
Obviously Civ can have other leaders than Stalin for Russia for example, or for any other Civ (like France w/ Napoleon) - but a choice like that would still be interesting.

Don't some other grand strategy games have depictions of Stalin or even Hitler? Obviously Civ is more 'made for everyone', but just wondering

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I can definitely understand the argument. Maybe there's a Russian or USSR leader that is less controversial that could still make for a good, modern, militaristic pick?

I wouldn't necessarily mind Lenin, but I wouldn't go any more modern than that personally. I do think that a UU, such as T-34 Soviet Tank, would also be enough representation for me and let the Cossack at least take a break from Russia for a little while.

Don't some other grand strategy games have depictions of Stalin or even Hitler? Obviously Civ is more 'made for everyone', but just wondering

I mean Civ 6 does in mods. Officially though if they do depict Hitler they would lose out on the German market, since he's banned in Germany, and I believe Austria as well, at least.

 

[Patine]

Particularly chosen Stalin because he's modern, would make for a change of pace from typical Warmongering Leaders, who are usually with exclusively early to mid game.
I can definitely understand the argument. Maybe there's a Russian or USSR leader that is less controversial that could still make for a good, modern, militaristic pick?
Obviously Civ can have other leaders than Stalin for Russia for example, or for any other Civ (like France w/ Napoleon) - but a choice like that would still be interesting.

Don't some other grand strategy games have depictions of Stalin or even Hitler? Obviously Civ is more 'made for everyone', but just wondering

I wouldn't necessarily mind Lenin, but I wouldn't go any more modern than that personally. I do think that a UU, such as T-34 Soviet Tank, would also be enough representation for me and let the Cossack at least take a break from Russia for a little while.

Lenin wasn't really nearly as much known as a warmonger, really, as an ideologue and radical economic and infrastructure innovator. He started by dropping out of WW1 on unfavourable terms to the Central Powers. The only two wars he led were the Russian Civil War to finish the Russian Revolution, and the Polish-Soviet War, which he actually lost.

I mean Civ 6 does in mods. Officially though if they do depict Hitler they would lose out on the German market, since he's banned in Germany, and I believe Austria as well, at least.

The German language Wikipedia pages have articles on Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, the Third Reich, the NSDAP, the Waffen-SS, WW2, the Holocaust, and what have you, including portraits of Nazis and insignia and flags that contain swastikas and SS twin lightning bolts, and concentration camp footage. There must be exceptions in Germany and Austria for purely academic reasons (or maybe all of those particular contributors are from Switzerland, Liechtenstein, and Punxsutawney), but I don't know where the line would be drawn, or if a game like Civ would count as, "glorification and apologism."

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Lenin wasn't really nearly as much known as a warmonger, really, as an ideologue and radical economic and infrastructure innovator. He started by dropping out of WW1 on unfavourable terms to the Central Powers. The only two wars he led were the Russian Civil War to finish the Russian Revolution, and the Polish-Soviet War, which he actually lost.

I more or less meant the only reasonable modern Russian leader I would go for, irregardless of being a warmonger.

The German language Wikipedia pages have articles on Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, the Third Reich, the NSDAP, the Waffen-SS, WW2, the Holocaust, and what have you, including portraits of Nazis and insignia and flags that contain swastikas and SS twin lightning bolts, and concentration camp footage. There must be exceptions in Germany and Austria for purely academic reasons (or maybe all of those particular contributors are from Switzerland, Liechtenstein, and Punxsutawney), but I don't know where the line would be drawn, or if a game like Civ would count as, "glorification and apologism."

Obviously for academic purposes they make exceptions. Picking Hitler/Nazis as a playable faction or character in games where they could possibly win and not be the bad guy seems different.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don't know what the current legal situation in Germany is: my personal experience there ended just before the wall came down, so is specifically West Germany, but in the 1970s Revell, the plastic model company, couldn't sell WWII German aircraft models in Germany with the correct decal markings, because those would, historically, include the swastika as a tail marking, and it was illegal to display the Nazi insignia anywhere. I was stationed, like most US Army units in Germany, in an old 1930s-era Wehrmacht Kaserne, and they had to send in crews to sandblast the stone arch over the front gate because when the sun hit it an an acute angle (just at dusk) the outline of the swastika that had been chiseled there was still visible. As I remember, they took off another 2 - 3 cm of stone surface (just under an inch) to make sure there was no trace of it left.
Even then, though, there was some context: Finland used the swastika as a national insignia on aircraft and vehicles in WWII, because it is a prehistoric religious/cultural symbol among the Lapps (and Navahoe, and numerous other people who have no connection to the National Socialists). Displaying a picture of a Finnish tank with a swastika on it was allowed (for one thing, the Finnish emblem was squared off, not angled like the Nazi version) - with an explanation attached explaining the origins of the symbol within the Finnish context.

 

[Zaarin]

Even then, though, there was some context: Finland used the swastika as a national insignia on aircraft and vehicles in WWII, because it is a prehistoric religious/cultural symbol among the Lapps (and Navahoe, and numerous other people who have no connection to the National Socialists). Displaying a picture of a Finnish tank with a swastika on it was allowed (for one thing, the Finnish emblem was squared off, not angled like the Nazi version) - with an explanation attached explaining the origins of the symbol within the Finnish context.

Makes me think of some of the Mishnah regulations on kashrut: e.g., you can cook meat with almond milk, but only if you make it clear to everyone it's almond milk (such as using a pitcher decorated with almonds or garnishing the dish with almonds) so you don't have even the appearance of violating kashrut.

 

[Patine]

Makes me think of some of the Mishnah regulations on kashrut: e.g., you can cook meat with almond milk, but only if you make it clear to everyone it's almond milk (such as using a picture decorated with almonds or garnishing the dish with almonds) so you don't have even the appearance of violating kashrut.

And Muslim cooks and food vendors for business, apparently, are allowed to prepare haram foods, and even liquor, but only for sale to non-Muslims. Kind of, sort of, related.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I wouldn't necessarily mind Lenin, but I wouldn't go any more modern than that personally. I do think that a UU, such as T-34 Soviet Tank, would also be enough representation for me and let the Cossack at least take a break from Russia for a little while.

Lenin should be a nice shot to lead Sovietic Union. And since the Byzantium and Rome are two civs of the same society, I don't see problems to civ 7 have Russia and Sovietic Union as two separate civs. Maybe Russia can have the Cossacks and Sovietic Union Tanks as Unique Unit.
The only problem is give overrepresentation to Russia during the Russia-Ukranian war...

I mean Civ 6 does in mods. Officially though if they do depict Hitler they would lose out on the German market, since he's banned in Germany, and I believe Austria as well, at least.

I think anyone wants Hitler as lead of Germany. Hitler was a shamefull leader to the Germans and be a civ is a honor what he don't deserves.
To Germany we should stick with Bismarck, because he was prime minister in a real Germany state, others as Barbarrosa lived in a time before Germany be a thing.

 

[Patine]

And since the Byzantium and Rome are two civs of the same society,

Please, don't pick the scabs. You're point could have been made without bringing this up again. Even if I disagree on your point of Russia being interchangeable with the USSR, perfectly, without including Georgia and any future Civ's that may fill other Soviet Republics.

 

[Patine]

To Germany we should stick with Bismarck, because he was prime minister in a real Germany state, others as Barbarrosa lived in a time before Germany be a thing.

I must ask what you mean, exactly, by a REAL German State, and who else does that arbitrarily exclude in your viewpoint?

 

[Zaarin]

To Germany we should stick with Bismarck, because he was prime minister in a real Germany state, others as Barbarrosa lived in a time before Germany be a thing.

For the millionth time, the German civilization absolutely existed when Barbarossa was king. Bismarck was a remarkable man, but he's been in Civ enough times for a while, just like Napoleon. The only reason to exclude Holy Roman Emperors from leading Germany is some misplaced obsession with nation-states. If you want to talk about Eurocentrism, including the HRE and Germany would be peak Eurocentrism (see also: Civ4). At that rate we might as well just start divvying up the German principalities and have civs for Bavaria, the Palatinate, Prussia, Swabia, Saxony...

 

[Henri Christophe]

I must ask what you mean, exactly, by a REAL German State, and who else does that arbitrarily exclude in your viewpoint?

The real German state is the German history after the unification of Bismarck and the king Wilhelm II in the palace of Versailles.

Before that day there is no Germany at all.

If you want to talk about Eurocentrism, including the HRE and Germany would be peak Eurocentrism (see also: Civ4). At that rate we might as well just start divvying up the German principalities and have civs for Bavaria, the Palatinate, Prussia, Swabia, Saxony...

About Eurocentrism, you are right, we need to be cautelous before choice the German leader, because we need to avoid to overrepresent Germans states. But if we choice Prussia, for example, to represent Germany and not have the German civ, it will be not a overrepresentation problem. The problem will be if we have Visigodos, Prussians and Germans at the same time.

the German civilization absolutely existed when Barbarossa was king

By the german nationalism, the German society existed since the Vedas times (!). That the why the Nazi called they self Arians, the same name of the Vedic people.
Actually I'm not an expert in Barbarrosa history, but, if we want to do a Holly Roman civ we should choice Charlermagne or Otto. And a Holly Roman civ under Charlermagne should replace France and Germany at same time. Would be nice civ7 don't have strong names as France and German, just to be different a little.

 

[Phrozen]

I don't know what the current legal situation in Germany is: my personal experience there ended just before the wall came down, so is specifically West Germany, but in the 1970s Revell, the plastic model company, couldn't sell WWII German aircraft models in Germany with the correct decal markings, because those would, historically, include the swastika as a tail marking, and it was illegal to display the Nazi insignia anywhere. I was stationed, like most US Army units in Germany, in an old 1930s-era Wehrmacht Kaserne, and they had to send in crews to sandblast the stone arch over the front gate because when the sun hit it an an acute angle (just at dusk) the outline of the swastika that had been chiseled there was still visible. As I remember, they took off another 2 - 3 cm of stone surface (just under an inch) to make sure there was no trace of it left.
Even then, though, there was some context: Finland used the swastika as a national insignia on aircraft and vehicles in WWII, because it is a prehistoric religious/cultural symbol among the Lapps (and Navahoe, and numerous other people who have no connection to the National Socialists). Displaying a picture of a Finnish tank with a swastika on it was allowed (for one thing, the Finnish emblem was squared off, not angled like the Nazi version) - with an explanation attached explaining the origins of the symbol within the Finnish context.

I believe that is still the case as games like Wolfenstein are edited when released in Europe.

Reminds me of many uniformed peoples reactions when they look at a tourist map in Japan. Temples are usually marked with a manji kanji which is a mirror reversed swastika.

 

[Patine]

The real German state is the German history after the unification of Bismarck and the king Wilhelm II in the palace of Versailles.

Before that day there is no Germany at all.

Only in a purely political and Constitutional statement, and only in one iteration of the existence of Germany (and, even so, the separate existence of the Austrian Empire and the Swiss Confederation make your arbitrary declaration even weaker). No, Germany, existed for many centuries before Bismarck, and it's ridiculous to say otherwise. Among the subsidiary titles of the Holy Roman Emperors was, in fact, "King of Germany."

By the german nationalism, the German society existed since the Vedas times (!). That the why the Nazi called they self Arians, the same name of the Vedic people.

Nationalism, as a whole phenomenon, only dates back to the start of the 1800's (and was distinct from Irish, American, French, and Spanish American - Bolivar and such - and even later, "Patriotism," starting in the late 1700's, but that's a different topic), and Nationalism, regardless of the nation or ethnicity promoted, is notorious, among other things, for historical revisionism that comes across as some of the most ridiculous and bizarre of tall tales out there. Such Nationalistic claims cannot remotely be taken at face value.

 

[Zaarin]

By the german nationalism, the German society existed since the Vedas times (!). That the why the Nazi called they self Arians, the same name of the Vedic people.

Hitler also liked sugar; therefore liking sugar makes you literally a Nazi. Nations and nation-states are not the same thing. The German nation existed for centuries (not millennia, but centuries) before Bismarck, made up of the peoples who spoke German (not Germanic languages but the German language). Of course those people had local identities and loyalties. The same was true of the English, the French, the Han, and virtually everyone else until the nineteenth century at the earliest, when national identities began to usurp local identities in the wake of massive population shifts. If Barbarossa cannot represent Germany, then either the entire premise of the game breaks down and every civ needs to be balkanized (because Barbarossa certainly has far more claim to be German than Qin Shi Huang has to be Chinese, for example), or we just turn the game into a 20th Century Simulator and restrict ourselves to nation-states. I think we can all agree that either proposition is absurd.

Actually I'm not an expert in Barbarrosa history

Then it's presumptuous to assert he should not be leading the civ he's leading, no?

 

[Patine]

Hitler also liked sugar; therefore liking sugar makes you literally a Nazi.

Or being a vegetarian and abstaining from alcohol and cigarettes. Aha! The real reason Gandhi's so terrifying in game!

 

[Urlance Woolsbane]

I don't mind having relatively recent tyrants as leaders in Civ, but I think Firaxis has good reason to steer clear of anyone from the 20th century onwards: The Civilization series has a wider playerbase than it did 20 years ago, and I think that having personages like Hitler or Stalin in a modern Civ game would risk attracting players that adhere to certain fringe ideologies. See also: Why Hearts of Iron has the worst fanbase of all the Paradox series.

 

[Patine]

I don't mind having relatively recent tyrants as leaders in Civ, but I think Firaxis has good reason to steer clear of anyone from the 20th century onwards: The Civilization series has a wider playerbase than it did 20 years ago, and I think that having personages like Hitler or Stalin in a modern Civ game would risk attracting players that adhere to certain fringe ideologies. See also: Why Hearts of Iron has the worst fanbase of all the Paradox series.

I think blaming the subject matter for the fanbase is a bit irresponsible as a general practice of game designers. I have my own reasons to oppose Hitler and Stalin outside WW2 scenario material, but I'm afraid your broad reason wouldn't be among them.

 

[Urlance Woolsbane]

I think blaming the subject matter for the fanbase is a bit irresponsible as a general practice of game designers. I have my own reasons to oppose Hitler and Stalin outside WW2 scenario material, but I'm afraid your broad reason wouldn't be among them.

What determines the fanbase, if not the subject matter? It strikes me as obvious that a Tankie is going to be inordinately drawn to any game that allows you to play as Stalin or Mao, and it seems foolish for game designers to not take that into account

 

[Henri Christophe]

(because Barbarossa certainly has far more claim to be German than Qin Shi Huang has to be Chinese, for example)

I don't think so, I think the concept of China (中国) is so ancient as Xia dinasty. 2205-1818 a.C.
The difference is the name Zhong Guo is very generic, who just means central country. That's the why any dynasty who rules the territory see it's self as China.
So the Qin Shi Huang claim to be chinese leader is very solid.
Otherwise the Barbarossa can't be a German leader, because he lived at a time before the born of germany, that is anacronic.
Barbarrosa could be leader of the Holly Roman Empire, but if the HRE become a civ Charlermagne should be a better leader.