Should Germany have Won WW1?

[Adler17]

No one in Germany who was in charge wanted to annex half of Poland!

1. I already said, that it might have been possible later to give Poland Posen. But that wasn't so in 1916!

2. West Prussia was ever mainly inhabited by Germans since the 15th century and until 1919. We can discuss the history for a long time. However, in 1913, when the last census took place, the majority of the whole province was German. Although, granted, that changed from district to district. After ww1 and before ww2 a great number of Germans left or were displaced by Polish population. West Prussia was a mainly German inhabited area and thus belonged to Germany. Also you can't add the Kashuns to the Polish! They are a Baltic people, which indeed mostly joined the Germans and not the Polish. They should be seperated from the others.

3. Upper Silesia: At first, it was, like you said, a Polish idea to give voices to peole, who moved to other areas after the war began. They had hoped to get more voices, well, it failed totally. Anyway, it wasn't clear from the beginning, what was really the outcome. Even the Allies didn't know. So for the Germans it was this: The majority voted for Germany. So the whole province is German. The Polish would have argued the same way. But here the problem lies: How do you depart it? If there is a city with 100.000 Germans surrounded by 50.000 Poles in villages, how shall they be devided? Sure there are more Poles surrounding, but again, a very difficult decision. So the best would have been to give it totally to Germany. It would have been the fairest and the most democratically.

4. East Prussia in Gothic and Poland in Latin is somthing to underline the the differences. Clear. But I don't have any problems with that. In Contrast. Whoever is able to read the Gothic "Old German" letters, Fraktur, is able to read Latin. That is no problem. The other way round is more problematically. So if there was a misleading the Germans could have complained. BTW, that war the Poles started. They should not complain, when they have a plebiscite then when seemingly loosing a war against the Soviets. Also the same you accuse the Germans, forcing Poles to vote for Germany, did the Poles, too! That is no reason to complain. Tu quoque!

5. The borders should have been finally drawn after the war was over. Sure, Poland would not have got everything they wanted, but they were not really willing to accept a compromise IMO.

6. West Prussia had a population in the census of 1905 of 1.590.247 people. 567.153 of them were Polish or Kashubish (the latter should not be considered as Poles, but for the sake, we can add them here). So 35,66% of the population were Poles. Indeed only in 12 of 29 circles the Poles were in majority. Indeed in 6 of them only slightly (of the other 17 only one was nearly 50:50). So please consider your position.
Your facts are wrong.

7. If you tell me a German nationalist, I can tell you a Polish one.

Adler

 

[Squonk]

No one in Germany who was in charge wanted to annex half of Poland!

Major Poland + Pommerania + Upper Silesia + Masuria + part of Congress Kingdom Germany wanted to annex...

1. I already said, that it might have been possible later to give Poland Posen. But that wasn't so in 1916!

Huh, and why shouldn't it have been given to Poland at once? And what would make Germany give it to Poland later on?

2. West Prussia was ever mainly inhabited by Germans since the 15th century and until 1919.

Uh, Germans only appeared in this area in XIV century... And You think by 100 years, they'd be a majority?

However, in 1913, when the last census took place, the majority of the whole province was German. Although, granted, that changed from district to district.

Thus it was divided in majorly polish and majorly german parts.

After ww1 and before ww2 a great number of Germans left or were displaced by Polish population.

As well as Poles in german-occupied areas...

Also you can't add the Kashuns to the Polish! They are a Baltic people, which indeed mostly joined the Germans and not the Polish. They should be seperated from the others.

What do You mean by "mostly joined Germans?
And no, they are not Baltic people, but Slavic, of lechite branch.

The Polish would have argued the same way.

Poles NEVER demanded certain parts of it.

But here the problem lies: How do you depart it? If there is a city with 100.000 Germans surrounded by 50.000 Poles in villages, how shall they be devided? Sure there are more Poles surrounding, but again, a very difficult decision. So the best would have been to give it totally to Germany. It would have been the fairest and the most democratically.

Uh, so if a party gets 60% of votes, it should get 100% of parliament seats?
Anyway, US was supposed to be divided by municipalities. German cities were exclaves. Tough luck.

4. East Prussia in Gothic and Poland in Latin is somthing to underline the the differences. Clear. But I don't have any problems with that.

Oh C-mon. It's clear manipulation.

BTW, that war the Poles started.

It's not a clear case.

They should not complain, when they have a plebiscite then when seemingly loosing a war against the Soviets. Also the same you accuse the Germans, forcing Poles to vote for Germany, did the Poles, too! That is no reason to complain. Tu quoque!

Sorry, but Poles didn't have army, or police, or landowners, or church or state officials there.

5. The borders should have been finally drawn after the war was over. Sure, Poland would not have got everything they wanted, but they were not really willing to accept a compromise IMO.

Uh, the borders Poland got WERE a compromise. If it wasn't, Poland would get entire Pommerania, entire Major Poland, entire Masuria, entire USilesia.

So 35,66% of the population were Poles. Indeed only in 12 of 29 circles the Poles were in majority. Indeed in 6 of them only slightly (of the other 17 only one was nearly 50:50). So please consider your position.
Your facts are wrong.

This was a german census, and the numbers can't be completely trusted.
Also, even according to this census Poles were majority in definite most of territories Poland got after ww1.

 

[Zardnaar]

Squonk nationalism aside Poland still hasn't really recovered from WW2 yet 60 years later has it? How bad was it being a Pole ling in German/Russian areas pre 1914 or so?

Its a bum deal and ideally Poland could have been independent but given the choice between bad and worse. Would a German victory in WW1 and Poland being incorporated into Germany or being a German puppet state have been any worse than 1939-44 under the Germans or 1945-1991 under the Russians.

My understanding (feeel free to correct me if I'm wrong) was that alot of the real problems between Poles and Germans didn't begin until after 1920 or so. In my own country there are political problems sort of between the Maori and the "white" New Zealanders but we still live in the same country togather and for the most part get along. What were German/Polish or Russian/Polish relations like before the war. Were they that bad?

What are German/Polish relations like now? Here I've read stories about how its easy for Germans to go to Poland and vice versa with Polish children attending German schools in border areas. Also I've heard that Germans buy tobacco and petrol in Poland as its cheaper or sunbathe naked on Polish beaches as tourists.

German backpackers are taking over the country here. Damn Germans

 

[Squonk]

It's not true polish-german problems started in 1920. While I do not agree with communist-time propaganda about Eternal Polish-German Conflict, Germans did have a destructionist influence on polish history, Teutonic Knights betrayal, murder of king Przemyslaw II, Brandenburg, partages etc.
But "modern" problems started I guess in XVIII century with Frederic II. With him, the state started deliberatory germanisation of polish/kashub speaking areas.
Polish was being chasen out of schools, out of churches, both catholic and protestant,
Polish refugees from Congress Kingdom were being expelled after many years, Poles didn't have right to buy land or build anything unless any German didn't want to buy it / unless he got a special permission. Of course all the officials were being chosen out of Germans. Polish organisations were being persecuted, and organisations were being established on german side for germanisation of eastern prussian provinces.
Now I guess they were doing so more to centralise the state and diminish the differences between them, and less because they "hated" Poles. But the result was the same.

 

[Squonk]

I'll answer the rest later on.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's not true polish-german problems started in 1920. While I do not agree with communist-time propaganda about Eternal Polish-German Conflict, Germans did have a destructionist influence on polish history, Teutonic Knights betrayal, murder of king Przemyslaw II, Brandenburg, partages etc.
But "modern" problems started I guess in XVIII century with Frederic II. With him, the state started deliberatory germanisation of polish/kashub speaking areas.
Polish was being chasen out of schools, out of churches, both catholic and protestant,
Polish refugees from Congress Kingdom were being expelled after many years, Poles didn't have right to buy land or build anything unless any German didn't want to buy it / unless he got a special permission. Of course all the officials were being chosen out of Germans. Polish organisations were being persecuted, and organisations were being established on german side for germanisation of eastern prussian provinces.
Now I guess they were doing so more to centralise the state and diminish the differences between them, and less because they "hated" Poles. But the result was the same.

I know about earlier Germa/Polish conflicts but how did the average man on the street think. Were Germans and Poles killing each other or did they play the same sports, or socialise togather for example.

 

[Russian Soviet]

What Do Some of You Mean WWI Won By Germany Are you Crazy Sure it May have Prevented WWII, but Lets Face It If There Was No WWII There Woulkd Be No Isreal,No EU,no NATO,No Warsaw Pact,No Vladmir Putin (Well We Could do Without Him), No Democracy and Worst of all America will be Siting On There Buts Still Waiting for An Invasion

 

[Squonk]

I can't really tell how was it among "ordinary men". I guess it depends on specific time and depends on the region.

And when it comes today, I guess it varies a lot between generations, regions etc.
I remember my friends telling me that during celebration of 50th anniversary of my school, some elderly lady started tearing down german posters (my classroom was german and latin teaching room), telling it's a polish school and no german should be allowed there. So there are some extremists. And I think ollder people are the ones that dislike Germans the most. Well, there are skin-heads, who, obviously, don't like Germans, but it's a complete margin, at least in the areas I know.
But there is a strong divide between W (NW) and E (SE) Poland. West Poland is richer, more liberal and left-wing, and eastern is poorer, more rural, more pius and more nationalistic. There's a sharp break somewhere around former prussian border from before ww1. Oh, and bigger cities even in the east are more liberal and less prone to german-bashing politicians.

Most Poles have never seen a real German in their life. Most of the german minority are not "real" germans.
An interesting matter are some of the Silesians in Opole voivodship, as well as Masurians and Varmiaks. Originally polish, they adapted many german words, were german citizens before ww2 etc, and after the war they were considered by others as Germans. And they discovered they have more in common with Germans than Poles that came from Ukraine, Lithuania etc. And now, though they speak polish, hardly or not at all speak german, have polish origin, surnames, etc, some of them consider themselves Germans. Very interesting, isn't it. It's a real shame for polish state and Poles that they let that happen. By which I mean that there was too much politics involved, not too little. Also, economy was not on polish side.

In Opole voivodship, German party is one of the ruling ones and german is auxillary language in some of it.

Anyway, as I have mentioned, no-one really knows Germans here. There are many people with german surnames and of german descent, obviously, but that doesn't mean a thing. I knew some people of recent german descent, but I don't know what if they believe they are germans themselves.
After the fall of communism, the general trend is to discover the history of the land we live in all its diversity... It applies to my region, Silesia, the most... You know, old german monuments are sometimes being re-established, local newspapers mention glorious citizens of silesian / pommeranian cities even if they were obviously german, etc.
Sometimes it is due to german minority, and sometimes it is part of discovering the land... In the west Poland, it's a third generation of people living here, and they are feeling some link with this land, also with the german part of its history. Of course, it doesn't apply to all.

But I think it doesn't look bad. It may look bad from the west, if someone listens to Kaczynskis and Giertychs (notabene Giertych is a german surname). There still is a mefiance towards Germany in many Poles, but I believe it will be less and less of it as time passes. Even some really outrageous claims by ex-leader of german minority, mr Kroll, didn't spark all that much attention. But the Prussian Trust, Centre for the Expelled etc were much discussed for 2 years or so. Now it's quiet. Also, during this time the fate of polish minority in germany was discussed, because there were some not nice examples there (first of all, since 193? germany doesn't recognise Poles as a national minority. Secondly, in the case of a divorce between a Pole and a German, they always give children to the German and sometimes even forbid speaking polish with them - sic!
In some workplaces Poles were forbidden talking polish too, and it caused much controversy too, but it was a long time ago and the topic is seemingly forgotten.

 

[Ace of Gold]

I remember my friends telling me that during celebration of 50th anniversary of my school, some elderly lady started tearing down german posters (my classroom was german and latin teaching room), telling it's a polish school and no german should be allowed there. So there are some extremists. And I think ollder people are the ones that dislike Germans the most. Well, there are skin-heads, who, obviously, don't like Germans, but it's a complete margin, at least in the areas I know.

trust me, there are more countries than Poland who still strongly dislike Germany.

Not that Germany today is a bad country, but alot of people just can not seem to forget world war 2.

 

[Zardnaar]

trust me, there are more countries than Poland who still strongly dislike Germany.

Not that Germany today is a bad country, but alot of people just can not seem to forget world war 2.

We had a Japanese foreign student stay at out house for 6 weeks. Ol Grandma wasn't to impressed when she found out about it. "Bloody Japs" etc etc. At least the Germans were European. She was old though and dead now.

Germans can be funny over here. My mother used to run a back packers which had alot of Germans stay there. Their favourite phrases.

" Back home iin Germany........"
" Why in New Zealand do you have so many war memorials? Every small town has one".

 

[Thorbal]

What are German/Polish relations like now? Here I've read stories about how its easy for Germans to go to Poland and vice versa with Polish children attending German schools in border areas. Also I've heard that Germans buy tobacco and petrol in Poland as its cheaper or sunbathe naked on Polish beaches as tourists.

German backpackers are taking over the country here. Damn Germans

Perhaps I might add a few impressions from the "other side".

While there are still some obvious tensions, the situation has normalised a little imho. The funny thing is that most Germans have never even HEARD of people like Erika Steinbach before her pics were all over the place in the news a few years (?) ago. I didn´t know her either. No normal German - except for the Neonazis - wants the territories which Poland was given after WWII back, which is the official position of the German government as well (2+4 treaty etc).

My personal experiences: While studying in Hanover, which is quite a bit away from the Polish border, I have noticed a lot of Poles were studying there as well. And I got along with them very nicely (we had a bit of trouble with Ukrainians and Russians sometimes, though). But, of course, as they already were studying in Germany, they probably had a relatively positive view of Germany before coming over here in the first place, so that might not be very representative. That aside, me and my friends really had no trouble at all with Poles whatsoever. And although I already think of myself as a quite open-minded person (but who does not think of himself that way), I was very positively surprised of how easy it was to socialize with them nonetheless. They even invited us to visit them in Poland one day when we have finished studying and I might say that I´ve found quite a lot of Polish friends while attending university. Additionally, I want to admit, IF WWII was mentioned, it came from Germans most of the time. We get a LOT more flak from British guys, for example. And since Poland has joined the EU and there is a lot more personal, direct contact between Germans and Poles, it seems to get better. So while there is still some tension, most people are really trying hard to overcome the old stereotypes - from both sides. But there still is a lot to be done. But it seems to me that both sides agree that it is best to overcome - not forget! - our common history and work together from now on and perhaps even become good partners in the process... becoming good friends might still be a bit too early considering some of the issues that still surface every now and then. But I believe that we´re on the right track. And the cheap gasoline over there helps, too .

" Back home iin Germany........"
" Why in New Zealand do you have so many war memorials? Every small town has one".

A friend of mine just came back from a trip to New Zealand a few days ago and the first thing she mentioned was that there seemed to be memorials all over the place ( and sheep ).

 

[Zardnaar]

Perhaps I might add a few impressions from the "other side".

While there are still some obvious tensions, the situation has normalised a little imho. The funny thing is that most Germans have never even HEARD of people like Erika Steinbach before her pics were all over the place in the news a few years (?) ago. I didn´t know her either. No normal German - except for the Neonazis - wants the territories which Poland was given after WWII back, which is the official position of the German government as well (2+4 treaty etc).

My personal experiences: While studying in Hanover, which is quite a bit away from the Polish border, I have noticed a lot of Poles were studying there as well. And I got along with them very nicely (we had a bit of trouble with Ukrainians and Russians sometimes, though). But, of course, as they already were studying in Germany, they probably had a relatively positive view of Germany before coming over here in the first place, so that might not be very representative. That aside, me and my friends really had no trouble at all with Poles whatsoever. And although I already think of myself as a quite open-minded person (but who does not think of himself that way), I was very positively surprised of how easy it was to socialize with them nonetheless. They even invited us to visit them in Poland one day when we have finished studying and I might say that I´ve found quite a lot of Polish friends while attending university. Additionally, I want to admit, IF WWII was mentioned, it came from Germans most of the time. We get a LOT more flak from British guys, for example. And since Poland has joined the EU and there is a lot more personal, direct contact between Germans and Poles, it seems to get better. So while there is still some tension, most people are really trying hard to overcome the old stereotypes - from both sides. But there still is a lot to be done. But it seems to me that both sides agree that it is best to overcome - not forget! - our common history and work together from now on and perhaps even become good partners in the process... becoming good friends might still be a bit too early considering some of the issues that still surface every now and then. But I believe that we´re on the right track. And the cheap gasoline over there helps, too .



A friend of mine just came back from a trip to New Zealand a few days ago and the first thing she mentioned was that there seemed to be memorials all over the place ( and sheep ).

Most small towns have a memorial. New Zealand had some of the heaviest casualties per capita in both WW1 and 2 (for frontline soldiers). Our army always seemd to get the crap jobs or suffer from British screw ups (Galipoli or Monte Cassino).

We only had a little over a million people in WW1 and in WW2 we sent 60000 soldiers to the war from a population of less than 2 million and a few thousand of them didn't come back. There was also a memorial building frenzy oin the 20's and most small towns lost people to the war. Back then New Zealanders thought of themselves as British more or less and we were also one of the 1st countries in the world to declear war on Nazi Germany due to timezones.

 

[Thorbal]

Most small towns have a memorial. New Zealand had some of the heaviest casualties per capita in both WW1 and 2 (for frontline soldiers). Our army always seemd to get the crap jobs or suffer from British screw ups (Galipoli or Monte Cassino).

We only had a little over a million people in WW1 and in WW2 we sent 60000 soldiers to the war from a population of less than 2 million and a few thousand of them didn't come back. There was also a memorial building frenzy oin the 20's and most small towns lost people to the war. Back then New Zealanders thought of themselves as British more or less and we were also one of the 1st countries in the world to declear war on Nazi Germany due to timezones.

I see. Some author I read (I can´t recall who it was) claimed that the two world wars can be considered as a part of a "founding myth" for Australia and New Zealand - with both countries successfully entering the world stage etc. Would you agree? I remember reading that and being a bit sceptical if the people down under really see it that way,

Anyway, perhaps I should print out this information and make a little readme file that will be sent to everyone of the next 10 million Germans relocating there beforehand . Something like:
"WARNING: New Zealand has a seemingly disproportionate amount of war memorials/square kilometre in comparison with Germany. Discretion (or just keeping your f****** mouth shut completely) is advised!"

 

[Pieman]

What Do Some of You Mean WWI Won By Germany Are you Crazy Sure it May have Prevented WWII, but Lets Face It If There Was No WWII There Woulkd Be No Isreal,No EU,no NATO,No Warsaw Pact,No Vladmir Putin (Well We Could do Without Him), No Democracy and Worst of all America will be Siting On There Buts Still Waiting for An Invasion

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that the deaths of tens of millions of people would have been worth a bunch of regional alliances and an almost perpetual regional hotspot? And HOW exactly would there be no democracy in the world?

 

[Zardnaar]

I see. Some author I read (I can´t recall who it was) claimed that the two world wars can be considered as a part of a "founding myth" for Australia and New Zealand - with both countries successfully entering the world stage etc. Would you agree? I remember reading that and being a bit sceptical if the people down under really see it that way,

Anyway, perhaps I should print out this information and make a little readme file that will be sent to everyone of the next 10 million Germans relocating there beforehand . Something like:
"WARNING: New Zealand has a seemingly disproportionate amount of war memorials/square kilometre in comparison with Germany. Discretion (or just keeping your f****** mouth shut completely) is advised!"

Its a definate influence and started to open peopes eyes I think and hte people here started to see themselves as New Zealanders as opposed to English people in a different country.

The veterens brought back stories and their war diarys. They were shocked at the appearence of alot of the Eglish troops who were pale and sickly looking in comparison (bit more out doors based lifestyle ere and better fed). There was also the ANZAC's at Galipoli.

The 2 wars also formed a few opinions that haven't changed to much over the years about our allies.

British. Fight like hell poorly lead.
Americans. Idiots with guns. Feared more than the Gerans due to friendly fire.
Australians. These guys can fight.
Germans. See Australians.
Italians. Useless but nice people when taken POW.
French. See Italians but minus the nice bit.

A British general complained to Freyburg in WW2 in the desert. NZ troops didn't salute British officers and he complained about discipline. He was told to wave to them and they will wave back.

Plenty of war stories over here about our soldiers getting thrown in the way for the Germans to pound on them, like in Crete and the desert. most of the soldiers were farm boys as NZ was very rural back then. On Crete they killed alot of German paratroops which was described as like shooting ducks back home during duck hunting season.

IN WW2 we fought mostly in the desert and then drunk and looted our way through Italy. And stole jeeps off the Americans and Panzers off the Germans.

 

[Squonk]

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that the deaths of tens of millions of people would have been worth a bunch of regional alliances and an almost perpetual regional hotspot? And HOW exactly would there be no democracy in the world?

ww2 might have happened anyway, You know. And the idea " lets appease Germany before it starts demanding it, because otherwise it might start a ww2" is pathetic.

 

[Zardnaar]

ww2 might have happened anyway, You know. And the idea " lets appease Germany before it starts demanding it, because otherwise it might start a ww2" is pathetic.

Imperial Germany probably would have been better for Poland instead of Nazi Germany. Could hardly have been worse.

 

[Squonk]

Germany, during ww1, also wanted to expel 2mln Poles and Jews to make room for german settlers, as well as keep 1/2 or so of area inhabited by Poles... It's a choice between aids and cancer. And God knows what could have happened later on.

It's like saying: "lets introduce shari'ah in USA, or lets convert to islam altogether, and muslim fundamentalists will have no reason to complain about America ever again"

 

[Adler17]

No, Germany didn 't want to annex large pieces of Poland (a small stripe excluded). And Pommerania, Upper Silesia and Masuria were already German. Thus we couldn't annex it.

Uh, Germans only appeared in this area in XIV century... And You think by 100 years, they'd be a majority?

Yes. I had seen such figures before. It wasn't populated much by the time of settling there. IIRC 40 % Germans, 35 % Poles, 25 % Kashubs and Old Prussians in the 15th century. While you're correct about the Kashubians as being Slaves, that does not count to give them to Poland! As they are no Poles either. Indeed most of the Kashubs were thinking to be Germans in 1913. Of the rest most of them indeed preferred to be Polish, but many, too, wanted to stay just Kashubs, no German or Pole. Thus they can not be counted for Poland only. Or if they were all Poles, why were so many displaced after ww2? Günther Grass is the most famous of them. Also if you equalize Germans with Germanics is as well wrong as the Nazis did. Infact the Germans are a people not only from Germanic heritage but also Slavic, Poles , Sorbs, Kashubs and Wends, and Baltic, Prussian, origin. Now also Turks, Arabs, Italians, Blacks,... German means on German Deutsch, belonging to the people. And to the people belonged all who spoke German and was part of the German culture. Not who was of Germanic origin.

Thus it was divided in majorly polish and majorly german parts.

No. As there were many strong German exclaves left. But they were not given to Germany because it would have given the Germans nearly all the insudtry. That is also a main reason, why the Upper Silesians hated so the Poles in the 20s and 30s. And why the Germans could not accept the loss.

As well as Poles in german-occupied areas...

True. Also a crime. But that does not change anything about the German majority in 1913.

Uh, so if a party gets 60% of votes, it should get 100% of parliament seats?
Anyway, US was supposed to be divided by municipalities. German cities were exclaves. Tough luck.

You're comparing apples with pineapples. This is no parliament election, but a plebiscite. And in plebiscites the majority decides. Just a lesson in democracy.

Oh C-mon. It's clear manipulation.

Why are Gothic letters for Germany a manipulation? Today it would be. But not in that days. I don't get it.

Sorry, but Poles didn't have army, or police, or landowners, or church or state officials there.

Polish army units in Upper Silesia, army supported militias, Catholic Church are not counting for the Poles, huh? Not counting the fights startted by the Poles?

Uh, the borders Poland got WERE a compromise. If it wasn't, Poland would get entire Pommerania, entire Major Poland, entire Masuria, entire USilesia.

It was a good compromise for Poland. If the winners of ww1 were fair, Poland would have got only Posen back. The rest is German. You can see it in the figures of the census of 1905 and 1913. As well as the plebiscites.

This was a german census, and the numbers can't be completely trusted.
Also, even according to this census Poles were majority in definite most of territories Poland got after ww1.

Then I can say I do not trust any Polish figures as well. Believe me, Prussian officials WERE correct (not counting errors due to the lack of technology, but that is true for both sides). German bureaucracy is infamous for that!
After ww1 because of the displacements of Germans in these areas all Polish figures are void.

Adler

 

[Zardnaar]

Question for Adler. Fomr the German perspective/hisory how did the Germans themsleves rate soldiers form various parts of the world they faced on the battlefield. Over her I've read that in WW2 German counter attacks often targeted American lines because the troops were inexperienced compared to British troops.