Should Hollywood History Be Allowed?

[nonconformist]

I sorta have a problem with it cause everytime I see a documentry on the landings they always go on about how the American's face the 352nd a semi-elite(I say Semi cause I'm not sure how many of the orginal troops are still alive come this point, they were on R&R at this point) anyways, a group of combat hardend troops that provided the biggest resistance(Other then that tank force that made it to the beach) for the entire D-Day Op. And in the movie they're pushovers

Two points:
a) I wouldn't exactly say they're pushovers
b)A lot of the Normandy coatline was defended by foreign "Hiwis" (Hilfswilligen) troops picked out of Eastern occupied countries and forced to protec the coast. This is show when after the beach is stormed, and the Americans soot all of the surrendering Germans, a couple of mud-caked figures come out shouting in Czech, and they got shot, when the guy says "Hey, I just washed for dinner" or something.

 

[Riesstiu IV]

Are we watching the same movie? Whenever I see the D-day scene is Saving Private Ryan it seems to me the US soldiers get slaughtered and are only successful by overwhelming the garrison. The Germans soldiers don't look like Pushovers to me.

 

[privatehudson]

Apart from the officer going:

You know you're tempting me to explain at legnth

I sorta have a problem with it cause everytime I see a documentry on the landings they always go on about how the American's face the 352nd a semi-elite(I say Semi cause I'm not sure how many of the orginal troops are still alive come this point, they were on R&R at this point) anyways, a group of combat hardend troops that provided the biggest resistance(Other then that tank force that made it to the beach) for the entire D-Day Op. And in the movie they're pushovers

The 352nd were vetrans of the Russian front. In the whole of the western front they were the sole infantry formation deemed able to perform effective offensive operations. I'd say for those reasons it's not unreasonable to place an expectation of good performance from them. However the specific suggestions of poor performance in the film usually centre around the last battle which wasn't the 352nd. As NC says, the troops at the beachead weren't even from the division either.

 

[Kafka2]

P.S

I'm not exactly sure how many Americans it was that invaded Troy, I'll have to read over the illiad again

Call me a curmudgeon, if you will, but I suspect the "Iliad" takes quite a few liberties with history too...

 

[nonconformist]

You know you're tempting me to explain at legnth

I know it, and I unrepentantly say that any officer stupid enough to send tanks through without prior infantry cover deserves a cross, no iron about it.

 

[privatehudson]

Like Michael Wittmann? Like some of the 9th SS commanders in september 1944?

 

[nonconformist]

Like Michael Wittmann? Like some of the 9th SS commanders in september 1944?

Michael Wittmann was very lucky indeed that the Churchill that he came ouyt next to at point-blacnk only disabled his tank.
Noone in their right minds would send a tank through a thin, rubble filled street with infantry defendind (except the Russians).
It's just asking for bazookas, TNT, PIATs, Molotovs, Grenades, mines and flamethrowers intoevery orifice of the tank.

 

[privatehudson]

Michael Wittmann was very lucky indeed that the Churchill that he came ouyt next to at point-blacnk only disabled his tank.

Luck or not he still did it, and if the leading tank ace of Germany did it, and if the Germans of 9th SS operated similar tactics for much of the fighting around Arnhem, what makes you believe that the adoption of that tactic in the film is so unrealistic? We have quite clear evidence that the SS were not above using that kind of tactic after all.

Noone in their right minds would send a tank through a thin, rubble filled street with infantry defendind (except the Russians).

I don't recall any proof from the film that the Germans knew what they were facing, I do however recall the Germans sending troops round the flank of the main street bypassing this problem. Seems to me like they were in a rush and had no time to probe the town for what they were up against so just decided to attack quickly in two main directions.

I could like I said go into more detail.

 

[nonconformist]

I'm saying that nay tank commander worth his salt (and who wasn't in the damn msot powerful tank around) would be more cautious.
For example, it would be an unnaceptable tactic in a Russian town.

 

[privatehudson]

I'm saying that nay tank commander worth his salt (and who wasn't in the damn msot powerful tank around) would be more cautious.

So wittmann wasn't a good tank commander?

 

[nonconformist]

So wittmann wasn't a good tank commander?

Overall, yes, he had his moments.
But
a) he made mistakes
b) he got killed.

 

[Wotan]

I don't recall any proof from the film that the Germans knew what they were facing, I do however recall the Germans sending troops round the flank of the main street bypassing this problem. Seems to me like they were in a rush and had no time to probe the town for what they were up against so just decided to attack quickly in two main directions.

I don't have a clear picture of the final german assault in "Saving private Ryan", but I have a very keen memory of being annoyed about the "Tigers" attacking and that they are "SS" in the film. Both these "facts" I would regard as "Hollywood facts". A couple of Panzer Jaegers w. 76.2 guns? OTOH I would not complain about without checking facts, they where in several units along the entire Normandy battlefield.

But Tigers!! In the American "sector", my gut feeling says no way? At least not that early in the fight. At the time of Operation Cobra with PzLehr (Army not SS: 130 div cannot remember if they had tigers? Most of the Tigers were in independent Hvy battalions from 501 ->) at St.Lo maybe but wasn't the only SS division deployed vs. the Americans in the beginning the "light" 17th PzGrenadiers and they had no Tigers!

I guess the Tigers in the film are supposed to portray the "subjective view/feeling" of the americans under attack. Every tank is a Tiger and every heavy gun is an 88! They saw them as Tigers and the director wants the audience to see what the soldiers thought they saw. LOL The majority of armour on the Cotentin peninsula, IIRC, were obsolete french tanks in german hands and Stugs and a few Pzjaegers in 91st FsJ Div.

At least the ordnance used in both Ryan and Band of Brothers are realistic even if they are sometimes used the wrong way.

I vividly remember the first time I saw the episode of Band of Brothers when the took out the 105 battery. Before the attack they talked about 88's and when the attack was launched and they where 105's my first reaction was, another american film with no sence of realism. But later they made comments about them actually being 105's and not 88's. And I was happy!!!

It only showed the way the soldiers regarded their enemy: as I stated before, every tank is a tiger and every gun is an 88!

 

[Wotan]

b) he got killed.

In a carpetbombing raid, not in a tank battle. That should be said in his defense.

 

[privatehudson]

Overall, yes, he had his moments.

And the evidence from Arnhem would also be "mistakes" that of course were exceptional actions from the SS. I guess if that doesn't show you that such attacks were commonplace from SS formations then nothing will persuade you of it.

I don't have a clear picture of the final german assault in "Saving private Ryan", but I have a very keen memory of being annoyed about the "Tigers" attacking and that they are "SS" in the film.

I wasn't talking about what vehicles were present as this is a topic that we all know the movie is very innacurate on. That topic has been discussed to death already frankly. What I was discussing was how realistic it is that the Germans of that period would attack in that manner.

 

[nonconformist]

In a carpetbombing raid, not in a tank battle. That should be said in his defense.

I thought he was killed in a Sherman ambush.

And the evidence from Arnhem would also be "mistakes" that of course were exceptional actions from the SS. I guess if that doesn't show you that such attacks were commonplace from SS formations then nothing will persuade you of it.

I'm not saying he wan't an exceptional tank commander, nor that the SS were useless (albeit not as "elite" as often made out), but to drive down a street, filled with rubble, sided on either side with tall houses, withot having secured it earlier, or with a larger force is verging on suicidal.

 

[Wotan]

I wasn't talking about what vehicles were present as this is a topic that we all know the movie is very innacurate on. That topic has been discussed to death already frankly. What I was discussing was how realistic it is that the Germans of that period would attack in that manner.

That is what happens when you jump in late in a discussion... Sorry

 

[privatehudson]

I'm not saying he wan't an exceptional tank commander, nor that the SS were useless (albeit not as "elite" as often made out), but to drive down a street, filled with rubble, sided on either side with tall houses, withot having secured it earlier, or with a larger force is verging on suicidal.

Feel free to call it suicidal if you like, but it's hardly unrealstic, nor would it be a particularly stupid way to approach the position given the situation the film lays out for the battle.

Co-incidentally, 50-60 men to roughly 15 is having a much larger force.

 

[nonconformist]

Feel free to call it suicidal if you like, but it's hardly unrealstic, nor would it be a particularly stupid way to approach the position given the situation the film lays out for the battle.

Co-incidentally, 50-60 men to roughly 15 is having a much larger force.

I would have assuemed that in his situation, you'd assuem t least a platoon in the town.

 

[Wotan]

I thought he was killed in a Sherman ambush.

If this "googled" report is to be believed. I had read the story of the bombing and late discovery wrong. It was his grave not the tank that was discovered in 1983 and his fate finally learnt. Since the grave was an anonymous grave the war diary from the incident leading up to the burial could be traced and:

Finally, it was proven that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by fire from tanks of "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire Yeomanry. British Firefly crew observed advancing Tigers and opened fire at when Tigers were some 800m away. According to original War Diary of "A" Squadron, at 12:20, 3 Tigers were moving towards the Squadron and were destroyed at 12:40, 12:47 and 12:52 without any losses. After the first Tiger was destroyed at 12:40, second one returned fire but was hit and blew up in a loud explosion. Following that, third Tiger was knocked out after receiving two hits. Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed as second at 12:47 by British Sherman VC "Firefly" commanded by Sergeant Gordon (gunner - Trooper Joe Ekins) from 3rd Platoon, "A" Squadron, 33rd Armored Brigade of 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry. British Sherman VC "Firefly" armed with 17 pounder gun was capable of penetrating Tiger's armor at range of 800m. The force of explosion blew off the turret, which landed upside down away from the hull. Wittmann did not know that British had Firefly in the area and felt confident in attacking their position with his Tigers, otherwise he would take different approach to the whole attack. After Wittmann failed to return from the battle, search for him by the members of the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" and his battalion took place during the day and on the night of 8/9th.

Michael Wittmann and his crew was killed in action on August 8th of 1944, at Gaumesnil near Cintheaux and were buried in an unmarked grave. In March of 1983, the unmarked field grave of Tiger #007's crew was discovered during the construction of the road and was excavated. It was possible to identify the remains by Wittmann's dental records and Heinrich Reimers's (driver) identification tag. Wittmann and his crew was then officially buried in the German Military Cemetery of "De La Cambe" in Normandy, France. The cemetery is located on the National Road 13 (RN 13) between Isigny-sur-Mer and Bayeux.

 

[privatehudson]

I would have assuemed that in his situation, you'd assuem t least a platoon in the town.

Which without any likely support is still good odds and worth at least an attempt at rushing the bridge. Graebner tried much the same with less formiddable vehicles after all.