Should Hollywood teach history?

[Valka D'Ur]

I think that there's a sizeable difference between ignorance and stupidity in this case. Scribonia was not important to the story nor would she be, given the cut-off point, so the conservation of detail probably made the final chop. What you're saying would have been better historically, certainly, but I was far more bothered by Vorenus' children never ageing throughout the life of the show. That final shot of his children being rescued from captivity was a total immersion-breaker for me.

So if Octavian's first marriage wasn't important enough to mention, why bother with his second? I think they just wanted to have Livia in there, and bank on some of the audience's familiarity with her reputation as a manipulator and poisoner to make them keep watching in hopes that she'd kill somebody.

I'm not saying this isn't the only thing that bothers me about the series, and you're right to point out that Vorenus' children were poorly-written as well. And how about the idea that Pullo was Caesarion's real father? That just screamed "SOAP OPERA SHENANIGANS!" to me.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, soap opera stories are ten a penny in history, aren't they? There's a pretty effective whammy moment in the very first episode of the TV series Versailles which can't possibly be anything other than hearsay (at best!), but it certainly makes for good drama.

As for Livia, I'd agree that's there for an audience nod more than anything else, if it's for totally unfair reasons. Wasn't the real Livia supposed to be a paragon of virtue in Roman eyes and the lurid stories circulating about her part of the "strong-willed wife of an emperor" gossip that got bandied around all too often?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well, soap opera stories are ten a penny in history, aren't they? There's a pretty effective whammy moment in the very first episode of the TV series Versailles which can't possibly be anything other than hearsay (at best!), but it certainly makes for good drama.

As for Livia, I'd agree that's there for an audience nod more than anything else, if it's for totally unfair reasons. Wasn't the real Livia supposed to be a paragon of virtue in Roman eyes and the lurid stories circulating about her part of the "strong-willed wife of an emperor" gossip that got bandied around all too often?

I haven't seen Versailles, and don't know much about that. So without doing some research, I wouldn't know what they have in there that's based on real history, what's slightly fudged, and what's pure fiction.

With Livia, I think it's not farfetched to say that she was ambitious. After all, she did divorce her husband to marry the man who intended to rule the whole Roman world. And of course she would be thinking about advancing the prospects of her sons. And Octavian was also ambitious and needed a good marriage alliance to increase his own social standing.

Livia was said to have run a tight household - well-organized, frugal with expenses, not wasteful, and she made sure the children of the household weren't allowed to be idle. So that's where the praise for her "Roman virtues" comes from.

But whether or not she committed that whole string of murders and brought about the disgrace and banishment of Julia and other women who got in her way... I could accept that she likely did her best to influence Augustus' decisions. And she'd have been stupid not to have her own informants, as no doubt there were plenty of other aristocratic women who would have been glad to take her place if they could manage it. But it wouldn't surprise me if some of the stuff Suetonius wrote about was pure fiction, or at least a highly-embellished or twisted version of what really happened.

 

[Dachs]

If you dogfight a P-40 against a Japanese Zero, you die. The P-40 will lose every time.

Not every time. P-40s against Zeros in 1942 over Darwin and New Guinea usually had a kill ratio hovering slightly below 1:1. Later models improved their performance over previous ones at a better rate than did the Zeros, and of course American pilots got better as the war went on while attrition killed off most of the good Japanese pilots.

It's an exaggeration, but only a slight one. I've never seen Pearl Harbor, so I can't speak to its historical accuracy.

 

[Cutlass]

Not every time. P-40s against Zeros in 1942 over Darwin and New Guinea usually had a kill ratio hovering slightly below 1:1. Later models improved their performance over previous ones at a better rate than did the Zeros, and of course American pilots got better as the war went on while attrition killed off most of the good Japanese pilots.

It's an exaggeration, but only a slight one. I've never seen Pearl Harbor, so I can't speak to its historical accuracy.

But not dogfighting! The P-40 was a pretty good aircraft. But it simply wasn't as maneuverable as a Zero. Using tactics other than dogfighting, P-40s performed pretty well against the Zero. But to have a P-40 in close contact maneuvers with a Zero was to lose. This came about because while the 2 aircraft were comparable in size, the P-40 weighed about 1/3 more.

 

[Dachs]

But not dogfighting! The P-40 was a pretty good aircraft. But it simply wasn't as maneuverable as a Zero. Using tactics other than dogfighting, P-40s performed pretty well against the Zero. But to have a P-40 in close contact maneuvers with a Zero was to lose. This came about because while the 2 aircraft were comparable in size, the P-40 weighed about 1/3 more.

Yep! No argument here.

 

[Kyriakos]

Re not presenting figures who existed, maybe HBO Rome makes a subtle note of Damnatio Memoriae?

(ok, i will be leaving)

 

[r16]

If you dogfight a P-40 against a Japanese Zero, you die. The P-40 will lose every time.

this stems from a mention of the movie Pearl Harbour . Which indeed has Kidd/Spruance class ships which were truly hated and stuff by all the critics in the 1970s when they were new for their lack of weaponry . But the true crime of the CGI and stuff is the green coloured Zeros , which didn't appear until late 1942 or 43 . And actualy this is something based on something still going strong after something . Bill Gunston actually wrote that the A6M3 was at Pearl Harbour . You know , Americans designing the Zero and selling it to stupid Japanese and with the Neocons in charge and stuff and ready to call up names on charges of treason ... Just do not ask what the hell this means . And yeah , ı know the movie was in development before 9/11 .

as for dogfighting Zeros it's rather possible with the P-40 as long as you have the speed to outroll the A6M . The 'Hawk's problem was that it lacked the engine power either to gain altitude or keep going in the level with Zero being so close in performance . These caveats also applied to the Wildcat but the Navy/Marine pilots were rather better drilled in gunnery .

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Re not presenting figures who existed, maybe HBO Rome makes a subtle note of Damnatio Memoriae?

(ok, i will be leaving)

Scribonia did ask to share Julia's exile, but I don't recall reading that she herself was disgraced for that.

 

[Zkribbler]

But not dogfighting! The P-40 was a pretty good aircraft. But it simply wasn't as maneuverable as a Zero. Using tactics other than dogfighting, P-40s performed pretty well against the Zero. But to have a P-40 in close contact maneuvers with a Zero was to lose. This came about because while the 2 aircraft were comparable in size, the P-40 weighed about 1/3 more.

Once the U.S. found the crashed Zero in Alaska and learned that it had NO armor, things changed.


Back on topic:
I watched Zulu the other night, which IIRC, is fairly accurate. Incidents like the Zulu's songs and digging through the burning hospital walls added to the excitement.

Ironically, I've also run across on cable, Mulan, where the Huns are attacking China, and They Died with the Boots On, where Custer valiantly sacrifices his command for the good of the Indians. It's hard to enjoy a movie when you're tearing your hair out.

 

[Flying Pig]

Zulu is excellent, though I'm told that the regiment in question only became Welsh after Rorke's Drift. However, that's not something I would hold against the fimmakers - the scene where they strike up Men of Harlech still gives me goosebumps.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Zulu is excellent, though I'm told that the regiment in question only became Welsh after Rorke's Drift. However, that's not something I would hold against the fimmakers - the scene where they strike up Men of Harlech still gives me goosebumps.

It's also notably not the actual lyrics to Men of Harlech

 

[Flying Pig]

There isn't actually an accepted set of English lyrics to that one - the original lyrics are in Welsh, you see. Apparently they had those ones written specially, but they seem to have taken over as the ones people usually sing, these days.

 

[Kyriakos]

Movies are not well placed to be teaching history. Nor should they be intentionally proponents of a political view. They are supposed to present a story, for the story itself, and not as an excuse to present some lowly view on history or politics

Imagine how stupid a computer game trying to present how history actually was would look like. Yes, imagine the mod VIP for Victoria 1

 

[r16]

koga's Zero is such an incredible story ; ı have used it myself in pointing out the dangers of blinding hatred , but both F4U and F6F were in the pipeline long before the discovery and test flights . ı have seen a glimpse of commentary by USAAF tests of P-40s against those Zeros patched up by Herman the German Neumann and they are even more senseless .