Should I refuse to serve in the settlements?

[Formaldehyde]

As you can see you are the one saying what the intent of the military is.

Only I am clearly not stating anything of the sort.

But everybody who does serve in the military obviously does learn how to effectively kill others, even the cooks and the clerks who typically never do.

Well it isn't all kill, kill, die, die, stuff. It is not like you join the military and all you do is go on killing rampages, there are specific rules of war that need to be followed. There is always a chance you will have to kill someone when you join the military, but it is more than killing.

Well, duh. Thanks for so clearly showing how my statement has absolutely nothing in common with your own troll.

 

[Tahuti]

In Turkey more men have died from suicide while doing military service than have been killed by the PKK. Conscription is sometimes a greater evil than the enemy.

Doesn't it reflect more of the nature of conscription in Turkey rather than conscription as a whole. I have heard some particularly bad stories about conscription in Russia.

 

[NovaKart]

Yes and no. It can be hard to draw a line between what is normal military training and discipline and what is abuse. In some countries they may have found an effective way to deal with that but in most countries it's a problem. Regardless I'm against it.

 

[Tahuti]

It strongly depends on the particular situation. I'm against conscription when there is no apparent existential threat, though in Israel's case, I can understand it. I can't really understand why countries like Austria or Turkey would need it.

Germany had conscription, supposedly on the justification that a military consisting of solely a professional force would be too reminiscent of the Waffen SS. It has been abolished there however.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Why would Israel be an exception?

And German conscription seemed to be far more about the Cold War than fears of the SS during WWII.

The post-Cold War downsizing of the Bundeswehr led to a considerable decrease in demand for young conscripts. Of all men reaching draftable age, less than one half actually served. In 2005 about 15% served in the military, while 31% performed civilian service or some other form of alternative service. More than 36% were screened out for medical reasons. This percentage was lower in the past (15% in 2003), but to avoid drafting more men than needed, medical standards had been raised. The remainder includes those who were exempt for various reasons, but is mostly made up of men who were not drafted because the military had already reached its recruitment goals. This had led to discussions about "draft equality" ("Wehrgerechtigkeit"), which is the principle that the draft should have applied equally and non-discriminatorily to all men.

The issue of "Wehrgerechtigkeit" was one aspect of the political debate over whether the Bundeswehr should be converted into a purely volunteer-based, professional army.

 

[Tahuti]

Why would Israel be an exception?

Because it faced a number of existential threats in the recent past and there has been no sign of that relenting for good, even though it is now very unlikely (due to Syria being in Civil War, Iran looking for reapproachement with the West, etc).

And German conscription seemed to be far more about the Cold War than fears of the SS during WWII.

Look closer in the very article you have posted. In fact, several elite formations such as the GSG 9 aren't formally even part of the German military because of that fear. It is quite ridiculous I know.

It is true that it had to do with the cold war as well though.

 

[Mouthwash]

Because it faced a number of existential threats in the recent past and there has been no sign of that relenting for good, even though it is now very unlikely (due to Syria being in Civil War, Iran looking for reapproachement with the West, etc).

There's also the fact of an extremely small population and industrial base.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Because it faced a number of existential threats in the recent past and there has been no sign of that relenting for good, even though it is now very unlikely (due to Syria being in Civil War, Iran looking for reapproachement with the West, etc).

C'mon. Neither country was going to preemptively attack Israel even before recent developments. Syria and Iraq didn't even do so after Israel attacked them first. Much less Iran after Israel assassinated their civilian scientists and likely sabotaged their nuclear power program, all of which were acts of war.

Look closer in the very article you have posted. In fact, several elite formations such as the GSG 9 aren't formally even part of the German military because of that fear. It is quite ridiculous I know.

The article states that this was a historical factor, not one which still exists today. It also points out that the Nazis had conscription.

The GSG 9 is primarily a civilian unit because Germany also has the very same laws as the US does in regard to using military units against the civilian population. It is equivalent to units within the FBI. And no, I don't think it is ridiculous at all in this particular case. I think the opposite is true where countries do allow their military to be used against the civilian population. Besides, those fears you spoke about were primarily against it even being formed.

It is true that it had to do with the cold war as well though.

Well, at least thanks for that...

 

[Tahuti]

C'mon. Neither country was going to preemptively attack Israel even before recent developments. Syria and Iraq didn't even do so after Israel attacked them first. Much less Iran after Israel assassinated their civilian scientists and likely sabotaged their nuclear power program, all of which were acts of war.

Before the 1979 Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, I'd say Israel's position was highly fragile. And given how Israel's neighbours are either autocratic dictatorships or failed states (or both), whereas Israel is a reasonably prosperous and free compared to those countries, no one in the world would really benefit from Israel's destruction, save for a few autocrats.

The article states that this was a historical factor, not one which still exists today. It also points out that the Nazis had conscription.

None of which is false.