Should I refuse to serve in the settlements?

[Mouthwash]

Just look at the countries which have mandatory military service (red) and those which do not:

I think I would prefer living in the ones which do not. YMMV.

Indeed, I wouldn't have a problem with Switzerland or Finland.

Yeah. OK. Well, with the original inhabitants bit I was struggling to find an appropriate description there without actually spelling it out.

As for your embolded quote, that does kind of go with the territory of permanent conflict: demonizing your opponent and all that, doesn't it?

I can't think of a conflict, any conflict, not just a long-term one, where that doesn't happen.

He put special emphasis on it, and implied that Israel is one big war zone. What you see on TV isn't really what goes on there.

 

[Borachio]

Just so. But then war zones are like that. Look at Syria. In an even worse, arguably much worse, case than Israel, yet people are still successfully living in Damascus.

 

[Kozmos]

Only it seems to me that making the world even more militarized and authoritarian, instead of less so, is what is propelling this supposed "lemming suicide". For the most part the very same people who think we should be engaged in military actions around the globe are those who find protest so disgusting. And many of them seem to be ex-military.

How is it authoritarian if people know how to defend and organize themselves? Just look at what happens to the mobs who get descended upon by modern arsenals. The results are very god-damn obvious. And I'm not arguing for cessation of democracy or even access to light arms, but rather a well-educated populace that knows how to fight back in case it needs. (arms will always find a way to those in need)

When was the last time this occurred in a modern country? Why should we all act like we live in Afghanistan or Iraq? What were you apparently doing there in the first place? And why should everybody be prepared to do so when we only need a relative handful who are capable of doing so on rare occasion?

Modern life isn't a bad remake of Starship Troopers where only soldiers are given citizenship. We only need a very limited number of people trained to kill others in the most effective means imaginable for our actual defense. Society in general would be far better off if those "talents" were left to a few highly screened professionals instead of everybody.

Just look at the countries which have mandatory military service (red) and those which do not:

I think I would prefer living in the ones which do not. YMMV.

The truth hurts when you apparently blatantly ignore it. Doesn't it?

I was living there and it was Yugoslavia. Which was...not 20 or so years ago when the grand state collapsed? Government sanctioned irregulars were roaming the outskirts doing some R&R, a little light ethnic cleansing, cluster-bombing hospitals, you know the usual.

It is easy to be saint in paradise. You cannot imagine your own government turning on you or a hostile force attacking America because you are well positioned and the wealth still flows into all your coffers. You can wave your hand and say ah the Balkans are a degenerate, primitive clusterfrakk and you would be right in some respects. But people are the same all over the world.

 

[Formaldehyde]

How is it authoritarian if people know how to defend and organize themselves? Just look at what happens to the mobs who get descended upon by modern arsenals. The results are very god-damn obvious. And I'm not arguing for cessation of democracy or even access to light arms, but rather a well-educated populace that knows how to fight back in case it needs. (arms will always find a way to those in need)

Because I think it is clearly not needed in modern countries? That forcing everybody to serve in the military is extremely authoritarian, as opposed to having actual freedom and liberty to do as you please?

I was living there and it was Yugoslavia. Which was...not 20 or so years ago when the grand state collapsed? Government sanctioned irregulars were roaming the outskirts doing some R&R, a little light ethnic cleansing, cluster-bombing hospitals, you know the usual.

Well, there you go. Perhaps if the Muslims did have better access to combat training and weapons they wouldn't have been so persecuted. But then again, all of those who were doing the persecution would have been just as trained...

It is easy to be saint in paradise. You cannot imagine your own government turning on you or a hostile force attacking America because you are well positioned and the wealth still flows into all your coffers. You can wave your hand and say ah the Balkans are a degenerate, primitive clusterfrakk and you would be right in some respects. But people are the same all over the world.

I had no idea you were arguing from the perspective of being a citizen of a country where teaching everybody the intimate details about how to kill each other might actually come in useful. Fortunately, I live in a "paradise" where I don't have to fear "Government sanctioned irregulars" other than the occasional SWAT team.

But I disagree that "people are the same all over the world" in that particular regard. If they were, civil wars would be the rule instead of the extremely rare exception. Would they not?

 

[Kozmos]

Because I think it is clearly not needed in modern countries?

Provided things will always improve for the better and stay the same. I am optimistic, but reality is hard to deny. Bosnia is shifting again and my relatives there who destroyed their buried caches are getting nervous again and cursing their decisions.

Well, there you go. Perhaps if the Muslims did have better access to combat training and weapons they wouldn't have been so persecuted. But then again, all of those who were doing the persecution would have been just as trained...

There you have advantage of local terrain and other multipliers. But lets not get bogged down with calculations. Local resistance with smuggled arms did buy more time for refugees to clear out and kept a greater degree of population in some safety until state forces got organized. Inevitably they were screwed, but that is always true in war. Their deaths were not meaningless is what I was saying from the start.

I had no idea you were arguing from the perspective of being a citizen of a country where teaching everybody the intimate details about how to kill each other might actually come in useful. Fortunately, I live in a "paradise" where I don't have to fear "roving armed bandits" other than the occasional SWAT team.

But I disagree that "people are the same all over the world" in that particular regard. If they were, civil wars would be the rule instead of the exception. Would they not?

I was trying to say you can't judge a good part of the world for living the way they do. Sure it would be wonderful if we could all live with American/Canadian standards but it really is not feasible any time soon.

Were they not? People only settle down when the good majority lives comfortably and without major disagreements. You take that away and well we are all too quick to go back to the old ways. Even America had its Civil War.

 

[Formaldehyde]

How much worse would the Civil War had been if every single citizen knew the intimate details of how to effectively kill each other and were willing to do so, including women?

No, I don't think the US will ever have another Civil War no matter how few serve in the military. YMMV.

 

[classical_hero]

So you really think the only purpose of the military is to kill? Just wow.

 

[Kozmos]

How much worse would the Civil War had been if every single citizen knew the intimate details of how to effectively kill each other and were willing to do so, including women?

No, I don't think the US will ever have another Civil War no matter how few serve in the military. YMMV.

It would be the same, more or less except the civilians might have had more of a chance not be thrown around like toys.

Human beings are really fragile. They are not that difficult to maim, cripple or kill. It's more to do with improvised weaponry, weapon use and maintenance, organisation, tactics and nowadays information and communications.

 

[Tahuti]

The truth hurts when you apparently blatantly ignore it. Doesn't it?

Well, you have just predicted that this world will be free of any future world wars because wars have occurred less in the recent past. That's pretty contentious logic don't you agree?

 

[Formaldehyde]

So you really think the only purpose of the military is to kill? Just wow.

So you really think twisting others' opinions into nonsensical rants is a form of discussion? "Wow".

It would be the same, more or less except the civilians might have had more of a chance not be thrown around like toys.

Human beings are really fragile. They are not that difficult to maim, cripple or kill. It's more to do with improvised weaponry, weapon use and maintenance, organisation, tactics and nowadays information and communications.

I happen to think there are far better solutions such as diplomacy, peace, and harmony with other human beings. YMMV.

Well, you have just predicted that this world will be free of any future world wars because wars have occurred less in the recent past. That's pretty contentious logic don't you agree?

And you "predict" that there will be more world wars. That this isn't "pretty contentious logic"?

So if I'm a "turkey", what sort of animal would that be?

 

[Tahuti]

And you "predict" that there will be more world wars. That this isn't "pretty contentious logic"?

You said (p -> ~w), p meaning peaceful past, w meaning war in the future. I said ~(p -> ~w), not 'w'.

 

[Formaldehyde]

So, again, you think this is a matter of "logic" which isn't "pretty contentious"? This notion that what I stated cannot possibly be true?

Again, I wonder what sort of animal you perceive those who happen to have that personal opinion would be.

 

[NovaKart]

In Turkey more men have died from suicide while doing military service than have been killed by the PKK. Conscription is sometimes a greater evil than the enemy.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Indeed.

Some people kill themselves due to massive stress in their (a bit less than a year) army training. It can be very difficult. It happens here as well, due to the mandatory service, which mostly is there due to Turkey having mandatory service and a race in arms.

Here some people can get a pass from the army service, under some conditions (it takes up to two years), eg if they cannot psychologically handle the pressure. It is good that this can cancel more harm from happening.
Although most (?) seem to not face any major problem in the army training, some very clearly suffer heavily, and of those a small percentage just commit suicide during those months. Like i said, the army is not for everyone. It is not about fun, either. I can see how paid-soldiers and those who enlist on their own may be far less likely to feel depressed in regular conditions, but it is a well-known fact that most veterans of war/conflict (eg US/UK soldiers in Iraq, and so on) suffer from major issues as a direct result of what they met there.

 

[NovaKart]

In Turkey it might be worse. I've heard of situations where an officer savagely beat up a soldier over a minor issue and faced no disciplinary action. The EU doesn't seem to care about it either and just let it rest as an internal issue. Meanwhile men in Turkey have to suspend their access to any sort of human rights for a year.

 

[bhsup]

So you really think the only purpose of the military is to kill? Just wow.

Well, frankly, yeah. The mission of the Marine rifle squad is to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, and repel the enemy’s assault by fire and close combat.

It sure as hell isn't to sing zippadeedoodaa.

 

[woody60707]

Nuke....

 

[woody60707]

I think I would prefer living in the ones which do not. YMMV.

The truth hurts when you apparently blatantly ignore it. Doesn't it?

Who was the funny guy that made greenland, green?

 

[cav scout]

Based on your posts Mouthwash I think you should enlist in the IDF. It will be a defining experience for you.

 

[classical_hero]

How much worse would the Civil War had been if every single citizen knew the intimate details of how to effectively kill each other and were willing to do so, including women?

No, I don't think the US will ever have another Civil War no matter how few serve in the military. YMMV.

So you really think twisting others' opinions into nonsensical rants is a form of discussion? "Wow".

As you can see you are the one saying what the intent of the military is.

Well, frankly, yeah. The mission of the Marine rifle squad is to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, and repel the enemy’s assault by fire and close combat.

It sure as hell isn't to sing zippadeedoodaa.

Well it isn't all kill, kill, die, die, stuff. It is not like you join the military and all you do is go on killing rampages, there are specific rules of war that need to be followed. There is always a chance you will have to kill someone when you join the military, but it is more than killing.