Should the COLOSSEUM forums be merged?
- Thread starter Tahuti
- Start date
Do I have to dig up links to every damn post I've ever made about my opposition to A&E being merged or "destroyed"?
It should be no secret to the regulars here and in the Colosseum that I am opposed to this, and why. It should be doubly no secret to the moderators.Now please excuse me; I've got a writing competition to post (stories and poll).
What Valka says is that the arguments have also been posted and resposted too many times and that we have had this argument with alarming regularity, which is exasperating. If the point is to simply 'win' the discussion by tiring everyone else off the topic so that it can be presented as an idea with no b¡objectors, it will probably succeed in the end. The OP, as it is, has hardly bothered to make a point at all.
I don't think a proper discussion of this has been fleshed out for quite a while. It came up a few times in the OT remerge discussions, but it was specifically not the point of those discussions. There has been recent staff discussion of this matter, and I'd say there is willingness to entertain some sort of change. Kaiserguard raised a particular proposal, and if you're going to shout it down in big letters, it'd seem an opportune time to provide some sort of reasoning. Valka isn't obliged to, but if this is to be the discussion on the matter, I'd have thought she'd want to put forth her points so they can factor into whatever decision is made. Now we can come to a decision without that input, so if Valka's happy with that, I don't have a problem with her simply saying 'no' without any reasoning attached.
Exactly. My opposition and reasons for opposing a merge/deletion of A&E should be well-known to people who have regularly followed this issue for the past several YEARS.
By your logic, Camikaze, every time anybody posts an opinion pro or against something, they should have to start from square one, reiterating EVERY WORD they've ever had to say on the subject, even if that means going back YEARS.
If you really don't remember what I've had to say (or the gist of it at least), why don't you do a search of my posts? You can probably find them faster than I can.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
ahahaha you're mean.
I echo that I don't like KG's last suggestion. It is to me the opposite of what mergers I'd want.
@Valka - I'm sorry, but I don't remember your position precisely, and I've followed this topic reasonably closely. So there's not all that much of an opportunity for other people to engage with your position if you're not going to post your reasons. It's considered common courtesy to state your opinion in a thread rather than just saying 'no' in big letters, if you wish to be listened to. Imagine an OT thread in which someone comes in and posts that, refusing to explain their position or provide reasons for it. It may well be that they've discussed the topic previously, or perhaps even often, but actually providing some sort of reasoning for an objection is nonetheless considered pretty basic stuff. Especially if those you're trying to convince indicate that they don't know your position and would benefit from an explication of it.
And I'm not going to go searching your old posts to dig up your opinion on the matter simply because you can't be bothered posting it yourself in a thread on the topic in which you've expressed an unsupported objection. That's really not how lobbying works, and is quite unlikely to convince any staff.
And I'm not going to go searching your old posts to dig up your opinion on the matter simply because you can't be bothered posting it yourself in a thread on the topic in which you've expressed an unsupported objection. That's really not how lobbying works, and is quite unlikely to convince any staff.
Please read the PM I sent you.
If you want me to repeat everything I've ever said before, so be it. I've had a lot to say, so it will take a day or two. And the post will be LONG.
Since you asked for it, I will expect you to read it. Y'know, you could try reading my previous posts in this thread. They consist of a lot more than just "No."
I've seen plenty of posts asking for explanations from Valka and CivG for their anti-merger position.
What I have to ask is what the reasons to be pro-merger? Why exactly would merging one of the other Colosseum subforums with OT be better for both of them? I've just seen people saying "Yes merge this forum but not that one" Or "No this one, yes that one" without giving good reasons for why they should be merged.
What I have to ask is what the reasons to be pro-merger? Why exactly would merging one of the other Colosseum subforums with OT be better for both of them? I've just seen people saying "Yes merge this forum but not that one" Or "No this one, yes that one" without giving good reasons for why they should be merged.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
The issue it that some people who dwell in OT can't be assed to check the appropriate subforum or to post whatever thread they want to post in the appropriate subforum. Therefore, these subforums have much less traffic, and since sometimes there is an interesting thread they become aware of that is in the right subforum, they are bothered by having to browse it and ask for this or this other subforum to merge.
I would concur that the burdens of production and persuasion is upon those wanting a change/new action rather than leaving it alone. Particularly when many of those actually using the subforums are content with the setup.
Of course, It does not hurt the other side to already have cogent points up front.
sophie
Break My Heart
Because when I start a discussion about art, I want to communicate with the entirety of OT, rather than a small slice of people, most of whom also post on OT.
Basically my objection is that A&E effectively serves no actual purpose. The only thing A&E does is limit the amount of people I can talk to about the things I like. As I said before, the only real objection is that DYOS would get buried. However a) the number of people who "stumble" onto DYOS is very small (i.e. people who use it probably have it set to subscription or have it bookmarked), and b) if seeing DYOS is really that much of a problem it can always be stickied
As with Valka, I've already made my position pretty clear in other threads. Basically the point of the forums is to facilitate discussion. A&E and WH and S&T don't facilitate discussion, they actively hinder it. Everybody who posts regularly in those subforums (and with the exception of DYOS I literally mean everybody) also posts in OT, but a lot of people who post on OT don't regularly post in those subforums (in fact many actively avoid them). This means fewer people participating in discussion (especially the same people constantly participating in the same discussions) which means a) greater likelihood of threads turning into giant hugboxes and/or circlejerks, or b) greater likelihood of threads falling into the rut of same argument rehash. Either way the result is boredom. For me there are only two real justifications for having separate subforums à la WH/A&E now:
1) The subforum has developed a unique or separate group of regular posters who have already made it clear they would stop posting if their subforum got merged
2) The subforum covers a topic which most OT'ers don't care for and/or would spam up OT with said topics to the chagrin of most OT users.
For me this means only the following should have subforums:
Sports Talk (reason 1, possibly reason 2)
A Non-English sub-thread I proposed here (reason 2 mostly, but possibly for reason 1 if it began to attract a unique group over time)
Computer Talk (maybe; for reason 1, but in all likelihood not)
Humor and Jokes (reason 2)
Uh-huh. How many years did it take before the Comings & Goings thread got stickied? That's a basic thing that any forum should do, yet it took a very long time to happen here. I have a hard time imagining that the OT mods would agree to sticky DYOS or the Iron Pen competition.
What do you suppose we're doing in the Doctor Who thread?
Oh, right. We're discussing Doctor Who. I assume the Brony fans are discussing Bronies (I'm not into that so I don't read that thread). The DYOS people have two current threads - one where they post their artwork and one where they discuss their storylines, art, and other matters. The NaNoWriMo, poetry, and Iron Pen posters are discussing writing, as well as posting samples of their work.
Actually, I daresay the Doctor Who thread would not be as successful in OT as it is in A&E. If it were in OT it would be buried several pages down on a regular basis, whereas in A&E we know exactly where to find it, and that's fine with us. Considering that Plotinus is a regular poster there, you might ask him whether or not he thinks there's no discussion going on there.
I don't post in H&J because I find very little there that is funny, and much that I actually find repulsive. Therefore I avoid it. I don't post in the Sports forum either, except once or twice every couple of years when the Olympics is going on. I rarely post in the science forum because I honestly don't feel knowledgeable enough to make meaningful contributions there. I post occasionally in the History forum, as you're aware. As for Computers... well, if I have a problem and I know who is most likely able to help me, I might drop that person a polite request for help via PM. As for the other people who post in OT but not the other subforums, I can't speak for their reasons. I wouldn't presume to know.
You mean like OT is now? If it's true that everybody who posts in the subforums also posts in OT (which isn't true, btw), wouldn't merging produce more of what you say you don't like?
Some people are greatly invested in their activities in the other subforums. If they lost the place where they can participate in these activities, why would it surprise you if they chose to leave? That's how a lot of people feel, no matter which site they belong to.
Owen, given that the OT mods allow Kyriakos to post thread after thread about art and writing, why don't you post your own thread there? If the mods are allowing it, why would you begrudge those of us who would prefer not to risk our threads getting buried, lost, spammed, etc. to have our small corner of the site where we can participate in our own activities in peace?
If you recall, I supported your proposition. It's a subforum I would have little use for personally, but I recognize that some members would find it useful and enjoyable. Why can't you grant others the same courtesy?
So what if one of the other subforums has a userbase that mostly overlaps with OT? There's plenty of other parts of this site with overlapping userbases that should still probably remain seperate because they work better that way.
sophie
Break My Heart
See, that would work for me if it was actually, you know, an overlap (which is what Sports Talk is), rather than literally the exact same 3-8 posters who already post in OT (which is what WH and A&E are).
World History regulars:
Me: post in OT
Domen: posts in OT
Dachs: posts in OT
Cheezy: posts in OT
Masada: posts in OT
wrymouth3: posts in OT
PCH: posts in OT
Kaiserguard: posts in OT
Hygro: posts in OT
Sports Talk Regulars:
Me: posts in OT
choxorn: posts in OT
El_Justo: doesn't post in OT
Lambert_Simnel: doesn't post in OT
Cryptic_Snow: doesn't post in OT
BirraImperial: doesn't post in OT
a) If you moved to OT you could have more discussion. More eyeballs reading the thread and participating. More viewpoints. More interesting discussion.
b) Threads sinking to the bottom is only important in the interest of bringing more posters to the thread. People participating regularly in a thread have no trouble finding it and bumping it when they need to (see: the "Because We Have a Problem" thread).
c) For me it isn't a matter of low traffic, but a matter of redundancy. It's great that the Doctor Who thread gets a lot of traffic. But in OT it will get more traffic, and as everybody in that thread also posts regularly in OT you would not lose anything from having the thread moved.
And I don't find soccer very interesting so I don't post there, although that doesn't stop me from posting in other threads in Sports Talk
And I don't find the weather thread very interesting so I don't post there. I don't really see what your point is here.
The rest of this post is rambly and doesn't really appear to be making any sort of an argument.
1) That would be nice if it was the case. You'll note that I specified exceptions should be made when a subforum has a sufficiently distinct group of posters who have made it apparent they would leave if their subforum got merged. This is true of Sports Talk. It is not true of A&E or WH.
2) I don't start art threads because they get moved to A&E and I have no interest in carrying on discussions in A&E for the reasons I listed above.
3) Yeah and I'm glad you supported me. And I'm happy to grant others the "courtesy" of a separate subforum when that subforum fits the criteria I listed above. If it doesn't it's redundant and a hindrance to discussion.
More hassle trying to find it among the 20849th thread about American politics or religion or serial threads.
Are you referring to the Site Feedback thread where I posted about CFC email notifications being automatically dumped into the spam folder? I didn't post there because I was actually looking for that thread. I just didn't want to start a new thread if someone had already done so, or if there was another thread that would be general enough to do the job.
Not all the regular Doctor Who posters are OT regulars. Unless you count Plotinus' "Theologian" threads as making him a regular. From what I've noticed, it looks like he posts more in A&E than he does in OT.
You're comparing threads to forums. They're not the same.
And you know this because you've polled every one of the posters in those forums, right?
Then why are Kyriakos' threads still in OT?
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I can sympathize with the pro-merger crowd to an extent, because I was advocating for something very similar a little while back. Ah, the infamous IOT-NES merger petition, something I am sure many of us wish to forget.
I learnt many things from that thread, probably the most important being that an IOT-NES merger was a Terrible Idea (tm). The second thing is that there is no way on Earth you are going to get something like this done with almost unanimous community support.
That aside, I really don't think that merging any of the COLOSSEUM subforums is a good idea. OT is already super crowded and a lot of people who use A&E are happy with the way things are. I didn't hold this viewpoint when I started the IOT-NES foolishness, but I really wish I did. Just my $0.02
I learnt many things from that thread, probably the most important being that an IOT-NES merger was a Terrible Idea (tm). The second thing is that there is no way on Earth you are going to get something like this done with almost unanimous community support.
That aside, I really don't think that merging any of the COLOSSEUM subforums is a good idea. OT is already super crowded and a lot of people who use A&E are happy with the way things are. I didn't hold this viewpoint when I started the IOT-NES foolishness, but I really wish I did. Just my $0.02
