Should the Vanguard unit return?

[mitsho]

I'm less and less sure of what we really need... for one thing we have Ancient to Early Medieval Combat with Iron-Ressourced Units and then Late Medieval to Early Industrial one without and then the later game with the Specialist units...

Do we need a specific mounted counter really though? If they are weak against cities (and you'd need slow siege units for that anyways) they are not that good on themselves (safe the ranged unique replacement... On the other hand, I do like that only mounted units would be fast, vanguards dilute that a bit...

I'm still in favour of just having a scout/spear -> pike -> skirmisher etc. basic unit. Or not, not sure really. need more time...

If we want to upgrade the scout "in-character" as a exploration unit, we do end up with the vanguard line. Already tried that

What if we do keep the scout as a recon unit + healer for armies, but limit them the hard way, with a strategic ressource. So that it is stilla a poweful unit (can move fast, can soak attacks, can heal), but you can only have few of them. Would also solve the problem of AI massing them.

I really don't know...

 

[albie_123]

For the purposes of this post, spear line = current line of "spear, pike, whatever we want to come next", strategic line = "sword, longsword, whatever we want to come next".

My opinion has changed hugely just from this thread. I now find myself agreeing almost entirely with Stalker0, Mitsho, and Ahriman, and the other posters who have similar reservations with vanguards.

I looked through the thread at every post, and I considered (see: stole) some ideas, created some others, and tried to come up with a practical but fun solution. Many people seem to think that if the scout is to last in the game, it should stay 'true' to its role: Scouting! But that doesn't solve everything.

So the problems the vanguard line had were:

1. They made the 'spear' line redundant
2. They were too cost-effective as temporary defenders (meatshields)
3. They were spammed by the AI
4. Too many units added to the game

However, the necessary features of the vanguard line were:

1. A dedicated healer
2. A dedicated 'scout'
3. An upgrade for the scout unit

Other noted problems are:

1. What role can the spear line serve?
2. Where does the spear line go in the industrial era?
3. If Machine Guns now upgrade to Bazookas, what upgrades to Paratroopers?
4. How can we avoid awkward melee/ranged line merges?
5. Do we need a Mounted counter?

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So, here is my suggestion:

We give the 'spear' line (Spears, Pikes, whatever comes next) the secondary defense roles, for both units and cities. They now become the basic unit of the pre-industrial era:

The 'support' line. Their attributes are:

• Moderate Strength Values (Lower than strategic units)
• Extra Defense (not enough to win a 1v1 with a strategic OR mounted when unpromoted)
• Never require resources
• Access to anti-mounted promotion and attack / defense promotions dependent on terrain
• No movement promotions (to ensure only mounted/armor and scouts can go fast)
• Lower cost than strategics
• Located on common techs most Civs will want
• Access to the 'parachute' movement feature in lategame
• Possibly: c5plus: Access to medic promotion)

Because mounted units no longer have a hard-counter, we slightly lower their defense strength. Note that these 'support' units are at least moderately capable as attackers and defenders, however, not nearly as capable as mounted at attacking, and not as capable as strategics at both attacking and defending. This line upgrades in its own path, not interrupting or merging with the current ranged line, to avoid promotion issues and to promote diverse late-game armies:

Spearman Pikeman Skirmisher (New Unit to fill Renaissance hole) Paratrooper XCom Squad

Note that this upgrade line becomes far less relevant in the industrial era, as the ranged units of the era (Gatling Gun, Machine Gun, and Bazooka) fill its role.

-

We then dedicate the 'vanguard' line to a scout / heal role; they are no longer meatshields, or cheap defenders, instead, they are dedicated scouts and healers, and perform only this role:

The 'reconnaissance' line. Their attributes would be:

• Very low Strength Values (MUCH lower than strategic units, and considerably lower than the support line)
• Considerably (I'm thinking possibly 2x) extra Strength against barbarians (gain XP, increase survivability, make them viable barb hunters)
• Ignore Terrain Promotion
• Retreat on Melee Attack (Actually making them worse defenders, as they will often break lines)
• Access to healing promotions (inc. Heal outside of friendly territory)
• Access to extended sight promotions
• Lower cost than supports

There only need to be three upgrades for this line: An Ancient era unit ("Scout"), a Medieval era unit ("Explorer") with higher Strength and Movement, and an Industrial / Modern era unit ("Recon") that has higher Strength and Movement again, AND in-built medic promotions (because by the Industrial era, the explorer role has gone and given way to a purely healing role).
UNIT UPGRADES ARE THE BEST WAY to keep the scout relevant and useful, and fulfill the roles that aren't filled by any other unit. Many people have suggested other ideas to keep the scout going: Changing AI to make enemies avoid them, increasing strength over time - basically, everything BUT the most simple and elegant way: Unit upgrades. It achieves the same result with a mechanic that is easy to implement and that already exists. It also makes historical sense, if that counts for anything.

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Apart from these lines, Horses get possibly get an aforementioned negative promotion on defense if necessary, and all strategics get an inherent strength bonus against cities.

With these new lines, the AI - and the player for that matter - will primarily rely on supports for defense and for attack if at a lack of strategic resources (or if strategic units are unnecessary against a weak foe), and may, in fact, only build a handful of reconnaissance units for scouting in the early game, however, if medics are needed, or a continent explored, then another few reconnaissance unit can be built.

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Diagram of upgrade paths:

I think it's a pretty good solution. Please critique the hell out of it.

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OTHER ISSUES:

• Where does the Marine fit in?
• Should Lancer AT Gunship be in their own line?
• Should Warrior upgrade to Sword or Spear?

 

[Babri]

I'm less and less sure of what we really need... for one thing we have Ancient to Early Medieval Combat with Iron-Ressourced Units and then Late Medieval to Early Industrial one without and then the later game with the Specialist units...

Do we need a specific mounted counter really though? If they are weak against cities (and you'd need slow siege units for that anyways) they are not that good on themselves (safe the ranged unique replacement... On the other hand, I do like that only mounted units would be fast, vanguards dilute that a bit...

I'm still in favour of just having a scout/spear -> pike -> skirmisher etc. basic unit. Or not, not sure really. need more time...

If we want to upgrade the scout "in-character" as a exploration unit, we do end up with the vanguard line. Already tried that

What if we do keep the scout as a recon unit + healer for armies, but limit them the hard way, with a strategic ressource. So that it is stilla a poweful unit (can move fast, can soak attacks, can heal), but you can only have few of them. Would also solve the problem of AI massing them.

I really don't know...

Spears aren't exactly supposed to be hard counters of cavalry. They just need to be strong enough against them to stop cavalry steamrolling a non-resource based defensive army. Cavalry pretty much annihilate archers & siege units so without spears holding up well against cavalry you might be doomed if you don't happen to have enough iron/horses yourself. Also due to higher horse strength they'll benefit more from terrain promotion, on the other hand spears could be specialized to be more deadly against cavalry.

And as I said earlier scout -> horsemen would make perfect sense. Horsemen obsolete scouts in just about every way. They have higher strength, movement & also get sight promotions. This makes them a natural upgrade for scouts.

 

[sukritact]

And as I said earlier scout -> horsemen would make perfect sense. Horsemen obsolete scouts in just about every way. They have higher strength, movement & also get sight promotions. This makes them a natural upgrade for scouts.

You need horses though; and we'd have to deal with the elephant UUs; the image of Chang Sueks or Indian War Elephants doing reconnaissance seems ridiculous to me. The main problem for me is flavor baggage; you simply do not have knights running around looking for stuff; there's this expectation of mounted being a combat unit as opposed to one that runs away all the time (scouts should try and run away and retreat, they're not suited for combat); the phrase "here comes the cavalry" illustrates that perfectly well.

Alternate idea; the scout DOES NOT upgrade; instead, it automatically gains combat strength as the player progresses through the ages; just enough not to get clobbered by other units of the era. (maybe with a "Loner" promotion that lowers combat strength near friendly units); basically the unit remains valid (and is valid only for) its single purpose: exploration, throughout the entire game.

 

[mystikx21]

That looks pretty good overall. Mech Inf doesn't require Aluminum in BNW or the mod. Rocket Arty didn't either in GEM (same with choppers).

Lancer-AT-Gunship doesn't really make sense as a defined line other than that they're all anti-"mounted" counters. It goes quick, slow, quick, and resourced, non, resourced (in vanilla, presumably the no resource requirement on gunships would return, which would help). I think it's probably okay and at least doesn't have the spear line attached as well.

Marines are specialised units like the above, we can give them some particular advantage (promo against mainline? defence/attack against MGs or ranged attacks in general?) on top of the slight strength bonus over infantry, and amphibious functions they can perform if they're seen as too weak.

GDR should just be an armor upgrade probably and not both. AA gun line is fine yes. Air units still may have issues with the AI attacking them to death but they do at least use them.

I'm not sure we need a specialised scouting line. Horses and ships more or less take over later on. We could give the light infantry healing promotions but not to mainline troops if that's still something we even want to restrict. Personally the only things I wouldn't give it to are armored units. The tricky part is getting the AI to use it, which could be compensated for in various ways (since even if they were to take it in a reasonable ratio, they'd still not position well to benefit from it).

Skirmisher is probably fine as an inter-era unit addition of "light" infantry. It isn't necessary to have the entire vanguard line, but there's a big gap there if pikes don't just upgrade to arques AND xbows don't upgrade until Gatling Guns. Filling it with something would help on defence.

I don't think you need to put an anti-city penalty on light troops, just not give them the raw bonus that swords will get to attack/defend versus cities. Mounted and ranged troops already have an anti-city penalty. The distinction once we get to gunpowder units would be strength being noticeably lower.

Edit: Sukitract's idea of scout's just gaining raw strength per era makes some sense instead of upgrading the entire line. The UU issue would be a problem if they upgraded to horses (plus keeping any special promotions).

 

[albie_123]

Alternate idea; the scout DOES NOT upgrade; instead, it automatically gains combat strength as the player progresses through the ages; just enough not to get clobbered by other units of the era. (maybe with a "Loner" promotion that lowers combat strength near friendly units)

I'm not sure about this idea. It's very different to anything that we have existing in-game at the moment - you're effectively paying no hammers to get a much better unit as the game progresses. It would be a viable strategy to just spam scouts and watch them upgrade for free.

GDR should just be an armor upgrade probably and not both.

Fair enough, I just figure when GDR's come around Mech Infantry become seriously outclassed. Then again, who ever gets up to GDRs?

I don't think you need to put an anti-city penalty on light troops, just not give them the raw bonus that swords will get to attack/defend versus cities. Mounted and ranged troops already have an anti-city penalty. The distinction once we get to gunpowder units would be strength being noticeably lower.

Good point. Edited.

 

[sukritact]

I'm not sure about this idea. It's very different to anything that we have existing in-game at the moment - you're effectively paying no hammers to get a much better unit as the game progresses. It would be a viable strategy to just spam scouts and watch them upgrade for free.

Not if we cover a few bases; you can't use it as the bulk of your army; it gets a penalty near friendly units. If you don't want people keeping a few for defense give it a penalty on friendly territory (what are scouts doing at home anyway, they're supposed to be scouting), and relatively speaking it's still weak; Perhaps even a penalty on attack unless it's against barbarians if you're still worried.

I honestly think the penalty near friendly units should be more than enough (can we give it a 2 tile radius?), the unit is already weak by itself; anyone who is so technologically backwards as to be conquered by a scout or two probably deserves it....

 

[albie_123]

Well, I guess, but I don't like the idea of a unit that gets its flavor by having a whole heap of DISadvantages. Why not just let it upgrade? Basically the only difference with upgrading is that it follows the same system as every single other unit in the game, and that it requires an investment - even if very small - to keep it up to date.

 

[mystikx21]

Alternatively you could have an "upgrade" that does the same thing.

Chariots could upgrade to horsemen, or knights (if we can do an either/or). I don't think they should upgrade into the archer line. They're almost as good as comp bows anyway (or were in GEM) but mobile.

 

[sukritact]

Well, I guess, but I don't like the idea of a unit that gets its flavor by having a whole heap of DISadvantages. Why not just let it upgrade?

People seem to dislike the idea of the scout upgrading into anything other than horses, I don't think we need a Vanguard line either, but I do want a dedicated exploration line that frees my mounted units for other purposes. It achieves essentially the same purpose; though in that case I think it should be able to upgrade while not in friendly territory.

 

[albie_123]

Alternatively you could have an "upgrade" that does the same thing.

The upgrade does do the exact same thing. I'm really unsure as to why you need a whole new system for scouts to improve their strength when every other unit improves their strength by upgrading.

Chariots could upgrade to horsemen, or knights (if we can do an either/or). I don't think they should upgrade into the archer line. They're almost as good as comp bows anyway (or were in GEM) but mobile.

I agree, but I'm not sure why. I think it's because the mobility is what you get chariots for, and so horses are the natural upgrade from that. Plus, resource requirements.

People seem to dislike the idea of the scout upgrading into anything other than horses, I don't think we need a Vanguard line either, but I do want a dedicated exploration line that frees my mounted units for other purposes. It achieves essentially the same purpose; though in that case I think it should be able to upgrade while not in friendly territory.

I agree with you entirely. It makes no sense to me why a scout would upgrade into anything that has an entirely different role to a scout.

 

[sukritact]

The upgrade does do the exact same thing. I'm really unsure as to why you need a whole new system for scouts to improve their strength when every other unit improves their strength by upgrading.

I honestly just suggested it as everyone seem displeased with the idea of scouts having their own line. Though perhaps I misunderstood the conversation

 

[albie_123]

I honestly just suggested it as everyone seem displeased with the idea of scouts having their own line. Though perhaps I misunderstood the conversation

Looking back through posts, while some people have suggested scouts upgrading into other things (spears, archers or horses), a few people have already suggested scouts staying true to their original role when upgrading, and no-one seems to have cried foul on it, as far as I can tell - but I am horrifically tired at the moment, so, I could've missed a lot.

 

[mystikx21]

I don't think I have a strong objection to later game scouts (regardless of method, they'd be usually weak units for combat and performing roles that mobile units and ships can do most of the time almost as well).

The question is probably best looked at whether or not they should be the only available healing units on land. The other functions of ITC, sight, retreat, and anti-barb advantages are probably sufficient to make a couple of them useful without this super-defined role as the only available medics.

 

[sukritact]

I don't think I have a strong objection to later game scouts (regardless of method, they'd be usually weak units for combat and performing roles that mobile units and ships can do most of the time almost as well).

The question is probably best looked at whether or not they should be the only available healing units on land. The other functions of ITC, sight, retreat, and anti-barb advantages are probably sufficient to make a couple of them useful without this super-defined role as the only available medics.

Do we need medics? Do AI use them properly? Having them as support as well instead of just exploration sorta just shifts them back into the same role as Vangaurds, no? I say we keep them as exploration units, and only exploration units.

 

[albie_123]

Hm. Perhaps if support units get the medic promotions, whereas scouts get the "heal outside of friendly territory" promotions? I just feel like we'd be making the support line too good.

How about this: Support units get medic promotions as well, but considerably less effective promotions?

 

[Naeven]

I'm just going to throw this in there

Remove scout, make warrior uppgrade to spear, no vanguard, no medics.
Spear gets no bonus VS mounted, but can instead choose a promotion VS mounted & tanks
(As have been stated few times already, spears was the norm in these early times. Not swords)

warriors-Spears line becomes new light infantry line.
This new line gets 2 new promotions, first a +sight (+something minor maybe) then a second rank with ignoreing terrain.
No + promotions.

This way, you can either spec into flat bonus, rough bonus or scouting.
The line should be balanced around that they take flat/rough promotions.
So if they take scouting, they will be slightly "weaker" in efficiency.

I always thought the warrior had to little use in a to short time frame + that scouts were beaten to easily by barbarians.
This tries to combine the 2, while buffing spears utility at the same time. Also, Horses will be the movement masters & scouts for flat terrain.
A side note would be to maybe make some of the spear UU's, swords that don't need resources.

 

[mystikx21]

I don't generally use more than one or two medics even from vanguards (I mostly used them to screen ranged and siege units). However, Thal likes medics and they have some tactical or strategic value. I think there's an uphill battle to rid of them as promotions entirely.

The question is to me whether they need to be specialized or whether that becomes a weakness to the AI more from specialized units or from the generally available promotion. A heavily specialised medic unit that is too weak is a liability on strategic combat grounds for the AI (their front line will be too weak and easily beaten), while taking medic promotions and not protecting them or advancing them properly in combat is a tactical disadvantage but not necessarily a strategic one.

I don't think the medic promotion makes units too good on their own that we need a weakened unit line or weaker promotions for them. This is why the vanguard line was a problem in the first place (it weakened the AI's strategic value in combat).

 

[rhammer640]

I agree with albie's well constructed post above (wont quote it for the sake of space )

I think if vanguards lost their defender role and performed a more limited role (but still very important!) then they wouldn't be so bad as ppl find them from GEM. The AI wont spam them and spears become more important while still allowing the scout an eventual upgrade. I also like having them have bonuses vs barbs (maybe as an upgrade?)

I also like the idea of having warriors upgrade to spears as its strange to have them upgrade into a resource required unit.

I dont like the idea of scraping the line and just making spears act as scouts/healers as I believe it muddies the units role too much.

 

[mystikx21]

Warriors should probably be upgradable to the spears line. It's a typical goody hut reward in vanilla already.

If practical, I'd want UU warriors to be either/or, but it's probably too messy.

One thing I'm also not sure about is why we have a ranged Bazooka and a counter-Anti-Tank unit. Seems like we could come up with some other unit name for the Bazooka (although it's got the graphics set already... ). Light Artillery/mortars is probably closest to the unit role. That's a side issue though to the vanguard/medics concerns.