Should the Vanguard unit return?

Definitely not. My biggest problem with GEM later on was the bloat it introduced. I really liked the changes to the tech tree and economy for the most part but I could not stand the early game specialists and vanguard units. Plus I never felt the AI used them properly, and would generally make far too many of them in the more recent versions.

We could keep the "skirmisher" in the early renaissance to bridge pikes and gatling guns. :)

I wouldn't mind adding a single unit or two here and there to fill in gaps and make early combat more interesting, but adding an entire line was overkill. Plus the units were extremely gamey with the healing promotions available to them, I honestly couldn't enjoy playing GEM without manually disabling the whole line.
 
@Ahriman
We counteract human advantages with AI advantages, so it's not a problem.
But that isn't possible. There aren't advantages you can give the AI that counteract being ineffective in tactical combat. You can give them huge economy bonuses, but that just ends up feeling ridiculous. It's much better to avoid adding mechanics that make combat easier for the human. In the past, this was one of your main design tenets for VEM.
Easy/powerful healing for the human and vanguard units that don't deal much damage from the AI end up contributing to warfare being easy mode.

I also never liked the solution of just having the AI build up swarms of airforce. It wasn't much fun to be utterly helpless against them - and AA guns come a long time after aircraft. It breaks immersion when the AI gets bonuses that are obvious cheats; it's better to avoid giving the human bonuses that the AI can't handle.

Heh. That'd be a huge nerf for the spears. I'm ok with making them a cheaper and weaker alternative to the swords, but taking away all attack promotions from them - that'd be too much, imo.

Agreed. I don't mind scouts -> spear -> pike, but they shouldn't lose offensive promotion ability.
I also don't think it's a good idea to have all the early game resourceless units (scout, archer, spear) end up upgrading to the same thing. That is going to lead to horribly boring armies in the midgame.

What I disliked:
...
Spears were VERY situational (just look at the table, anti-mounted is their only role)
Right. It's too narrow a role. If there are other units that are cheap resourceless meatshields, then spears and pikes lose their role.
 
Ultimately I'm reiterating what a lot of others have said.

I really do think a retool can give us more than reintroducing the vanguard line, at least enough potential that it should be explored first.

Also i still don't think the scout needs an upgrade. Its purpose is to just move around and find stuff, not for attacking.

Now sure later in the barbs will take them out. But on the other there hammer cost is dirt cheap by then, you can build 5 of them in the same time it took you build 1 at game start, so if you lose a few its not a big deal.
 
Is there another way to keep scouts for scouting throughout the game? The current problem is that as the game goes on they become so weak compared to other units that they cannot scout safely without being one shot by barbs.

Would the simple solution be to keep vanilla scouts throughout the game for scouting and exploring, but modify the barbarian AI so they don't immediately attack the scout? This is somewhat realistic- a wandering band of lightly armed scouts wouldn't be immediately perceived as a threat most of the time by uncivilised tribes. Basically you can explore freely, but if you hang around a barb camp for too long they will attack your scout eventually. You could use a formula of 10% chance to attack on first encounter, 20% chance if you stay in range for the second move, etc.

The withdraw from melee attack promotion and defensive promotions somewhat help keeping scouts alive. Using weak vanilla scouts as healers is also interesting since they have to be protected carefully during battle (though the AI is very bad at doing so).

In vanilla the scouts can also serve as a useful cheap unit to get garrison bonuses.
 
While I didn't mind one way or the other about the 'Vanguard line of units' in GEM I now think the Scout upgrade path should stay true to its own design.

Scouts and all the later upgrades should, IMO, focus on Mobility, Sight, Terrain bonuses and the like.

Give them just enough upgrade strength to match it with 1 or 2 current barbarians but not enough to displace a role of a dedicated military unit.

So when it comes to ranged attack:
2 Scouts (Level 1 Vanguard) = 1 Archer then it becomes:
2 Level 2 Vanguards = 1 Composite Bowman etc. all the way up the Upgrade path.

As for Melee. Scouts shouldn't be able to stand off against other melee units but rather have the ability to flee.

So give them good movement on all/most terrain and good sight to see units before being ambushed and then remove the ZOC penalty to allow them to escape past melee units if they can. Can't number the times my scouts round a bend to find themselves next to Barb camp and then next turn it spawns another unit and crushes them.

Some of the late-game abilities could center on Healing or Sabotage (no movement penalty on pillage). Possibly their bonuses could provide support to neighbouring units.
1 Scout (Vanguard) with +3 Sight gives ranged units better accuracy or range?
 
Can scouts get a chance to retreat promo (maybe from a tech automatically)? That seems like it would deal with the concerns about most forms of barbarian one-shots without requiring an upgrade path.
 
Can scouts get a chance to retreat promo (maybe from a tech automatically)? That seems like it would deal with the concerns about most forms of barbarian one-shots without requiring an upgrade path.

Well they probably could but then if we are looking at removing the 'military' option upgrade path to the Scout/Vanguard line. What does it hurt to make it a promotion?
 
Perhaps a combination of a promotion (80% withdraw from melee) plus AI coded to mostly ignore scouts would make them viable for land exploration throughout the game. Without the promotion they will probably survive wandering into barbs, and with the promotion they will almost always survive barb encounters. The final useful thing would be to remove zone of control issues for scouts so they can't get accidentally sandwiched between barbs. Could they even move through barbs? Mine often get stuck at the end of a peninsula before they can cross water, only to be trapped and killed by a barb.

One final idea to keep the troop lines as clean as possible.....what if scouts could get a higher tier promotion that allows you to convert them to into the archer/warrior/spear etc line with retained movement promotions. This would keep troop diversity lower but help make well promoted scouts useful later in the game when everywhere has already been explored. Final final possibility- promote scouts to become archaeologists late game once the tech is unlocked.

Final thought- cheap but weak scouts are useful for protecting land based trade routes as well in the new expansion. With extra movement and visibility they could be very valuable in this role.
 
This is my first post here, so pardon me if I'm retreading old debates. I just have the vanilla game, but I absolutely love playing with the VEM, and the vanguard unit line is a big part of the reason why. That said, I think it can be improved.

First, I suggest you modify all the ranged units to have a range of 1, though with some improvements to their melee combat (defensive) ability. Though that might make archers seem more like regular warriors or spearmen, in practice it should mean that mobility becomes far more important. A player could build some archers as a defensive force, but they wouldn't be able to concentrate their fire on a single enemy from afar, they would instead have to move and flank the intruder. Likewise, an attacking spearman facing an archer on good ground wouldn't be certain of victory, they would need a flanking unit providing support or softening up the target for success. So limiting the range of the archers opens up an important role for a highly mobile light infantry unit (it also, coincidentally, makes cavalry and siege weapons more useful).

To keep things simple, I think we can then make the scout, and the vanguard/light infantry line that follows, all ranged infantry. Give the scout a weak ranged attack, and then allow them to upgrade into archers. Archers, with only a range of one, are no longer the foot artillery of the vanilla game, but true light infantry, good for defense, skirmishing, screening, and scouting. Different promotions could specialize a particular archer unit as a scout, skirmisher, or defender.

In battle, as it happened historically, archers would harass the main body of the enemy from the flank, or would be simply used as fodder (like helots or velites) to soften up the enemy before the line of spearmen or swordmen closed in. With the Recon 1 promotion mentioned above, they could also play a sort of defensive guerrilla role, harassing a column of enemy soldiers trying to make its way across difficult terrain. Cavalry would be particularly useful in screening infantry from such harassment.

The big change, though, would be with gunpowder. I would allow the new light infantry line to upgrade from archer to xbow to musketmen, with the musketmen changed into a ranged unit, with the same 1 tile range as the new archer and xbow. The musketmen would thus be very good for defense, but for offense you would either need to concentrate massive numbers of them, or use cavalry and cannon. Longswordmen, though, would still be the most powerful infantry attack unit, next to Pikemen. So for a while, armies will be mixed pike-and-shot.

Eventually, though, armies will become mostly musketmen, and defense will take the upper hand. It will be difficult to storm cities, at least not with lots of cannon. To take out the cannon, and to cut through the lines of musketmen, we'll need a faster, more aggressive cavalry unit - the Lancer. (Modern Cavalry becomes a more mobile sort of light infantry, with single-range attacks).

As the infantry progress, they're all basically acting as light infantry, but it might make a better game to split them back into melee/shock troops (grenadiers) and skirmishers. But I think we should keep the gunpowder infantry as single-range units. It would be more fun, I think, to let the vanguard/light infantry units to upgrade as cheap, irregular, militia-style units, and keep the regular infantry as heavy and expensive. As these units become more powerful, wars should evolve into fixed-fronts like in WWI, with lines of infantry struggling to break through. Massed artillery helps a little bit, but it's only with tanks and aircraft that the offensive regains the upper hand.

From there, the heavy infantry becomes mechanized, and the light infantry becomes special forces (both now as melee units, no range). The advantage of special forces, besides air mobility, is that they do better in woods and mountains, and away from roads. The proper role of the special forces then, is to guard the flanks of the main army, and to destroy strategic resources and artillery/anti-tank guns.

So, in sum, I guess it's not just about saving the vanguard line as it about replacing the vanguard line with a more fully realized archer/skirmisher line, and keeping that distinction alive through the gunpowder age. Thanks for reading all this mess.
 
@McKellar:
There are a few good thoughts in there, but making archers one range is probably more of a change than this mod intends to do. Then again, since the very release of Civ5 the upgrade paths are a mess, and it hasn't improved to a point where it wouldn't bother me.

I just stared half an hour at upgrade paths without finding a suggestion worth posting. My previous post with archers in the scout role is annihilated by their upgrade to gatling guns - a scouting gatling gun would be just weird.


What I'd really like to know:
How important are counter units to you? Do you use them often?
(I mean spears, pikes, lancers, AT-guns and gunships)

I don't think I've built more than a handful of spears/pikes since the introduction of vanguards. They just seem way more flexible/interesting to me, and the anti-horse bonus isn't that useful against the AI in my opinion.
Then again, I preferred ranged units anyway, something I'm probably not alone with.
 
Being a peaceful player; I've never really cared; I generally have a few archers and Vanguards for defense and generally ignore spearmen, unless I know specifically I'm gonna face someone with a mounted UU.

I'd collapse the whole thing into Heavy Infantry for offence and Light Infantry for defense (with no mounted counter, I don't much see a need for it). I'd still like to see a separate scouting line though, might also be useful for trade route protection, though I've never seen a trade route that long.
 
Here's a simplified version of what I was thinking (w/ just vanilla units). Just the skirmisher and light infantry units would have to be added to the stock units:

Scout -> Archer -> Crossbow -> Musketman/Skirmisher -> Light Infantry -> Special Forces
Spearman -> Pikeman -> Line Infantry(musketman) -> Rifleman -> Infantry -> Mech. Infantry
Warrior -> Swordsman -> Longswordsman -> Line Infantry(musketman)
Chariot Archer -> Horseman -> Knight -> Lancer -> Cavalry -> Tank -> Mod. Armor

The idea is that every unit is upgradable into something logical and useful, but each upgrade makes the most sense against contemporary units. The lancer, for example, would be more effective against musketmen than pikemen and longswordsmen, so a player might hesitate to upgrade their knights while they were still fighting medieval armies.

The new light infantry line is mostly about supporting the other units, using their flanking bonus to allow other units to finish off the enemy. It means stripping a lot of the killing power from the traditional ranged units, but that in turn should make the melee units and cavalry units more important. Light infantry, to put it another way, shape the battlefield, corralling units to be attacked by heavy infantry and siege units. Cavalry would then be necessary to drive off the light infantry.

So it's not just about heavy and light, but also mobility: Cavalry > Light Infantry > Heavy Infantry > Siege. Think about a line of units rotating on the battlefield, the unit in the center can move slowly, the one further out need to move more quickly, and the ones on the flanks need to move very quickly. Victory isn't just about having the strongest units, but also about being able to maneuver them to where they can do some damage. I think limiting the range of the archers would help make that more important, but it might work without that change.
 
There was one thing vanguards was good at - defense against barbarians. Two vanguards could keep a dozen of sities safe. Right now I see only two options to do this: put spears next to each sity (but they will kill gold income in early eras), or use cavalry instead (but cav is usually needed to fight other civs). That's why I think scouts should be able not only to explore and avoid barbarians, but to quickly intercept them and clear their camps too. Can additional anti-barb promotion be given to them, to make them stronger vs barbs but still weak vs anyting else?

Lovering range of attak for archers will cripple the AI's ability to defend its sities. Also, archers are fine as they are now, don't see any reason to change them. On the other hand, gatlings and MGs could use some attention.
 
The more I look at this the more I become convinced Scouts should remain Scouts!

Upgrade them by all means to be relevant and capable in each era, but keep them scouts.

Scouts serve a vital role in warfare in any era or battlefield. Give them the skills to match the current role.

This whole "morph them into archer/warrior" thing is just wrong.

If you want to take out barbs or your neighbour then the right units are already available.
There is nothing weak about a group of archers/swordsman/horseman advancing on the opponent.

Scouts/vanguards serve the role of eyes on the field. We can surely see the benefit of having an almost invisible unit near the opponent allowing our ranged units to fire over obstacles on them. Or a forward line unit receiving benefits from nearby help. (10% Defense bonus to units next to a fortified vanguard)

Just found this interesting article -http://usmilitary.about.com/od/army/a/infantryscout.htm.
 
My quick thoughts.

Less is more. What unique role did the vanguard fulfill? a) upgrade path for scouts, b) defensive unit besides the spear line that is not the spear, costs no ressource and could take on the healing role. But it's very similar to the spear (in the early eras).

Thesis: If we can balance melee, mobiles and spears in relation to each other, we don't need vanguards.

The special abilities it provides can be taken over by promotion (instead of the rough/flat thingy).
Basic + Speed/Sight = Scout/Vanguard
Basic + Anti-Mobile = Spear
Basic + Healing = Vanguard

Mobile units aren't so good that they needtheir specific counter in my mind...

But the scout does need a upgrade, that's for sure. You can't kick the vanguard out and not replace it with something.

I agree with Mitsho.

The healing promotions can be taken by spears line while scouts could upgrade to horses. Horses can be very good scouts naturally due to their high movement & extra sight promotions, so why not upgrade scouts to them? :-)

Also the point mentioned by other posters that AI spammed vanguard units & that negatively affected their combat ability is also valid. Not only that, vanguards reduced the worth of horses as they could move quickly as well.

So finally we can have roles something like this.

Swords (heavy infantry) : A strong all rounded unit. Effective against light infantry & cities. Their weakness are archers/ranged units.

Horses (Cavalry) : Strong, quick moving units. Can be good for scouting purposes as well as attacking enemy archers & siege units.

Scout -> horsemen -> knights ->lancers -> tanks...

Spears/Pikes (Light infantry) : Cheap infantry. Useful for defensive role. Can act as healers. Performs fairly well against cavalry units.

Spears -> Pikes -> Skirmishers -> ?? -> Anti-Tank...

Archers (Ranged units) : Medium cost units. Good for softening enemies. Can be good against swords if units can hold ground for them. Vulnerable to cavalry units.

Archer -> composite bows -> crossbows -> gatling guns -> machine guns...

Siege units: Meant to attack cities & fortified units. Vulnerable to cavalry.







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I finally dived in and tried modding my vanilla game myself, to see how things work. I've redone the archers to have a range of 1, ranged damage 4, and defense 7. I've only tested it through the classical age, but it makes for a nice, gritty experience, with the archers out front, using the mobility they inherited from being scouts to corral the enemy away from my cities. Neither my current enemy or myself have access to iron, so the spearmen have to sub in as heavy infantry.

I also gave the scouts a ranged attack of 3, range 1. With the vanilla AI, it's pretty easy for the scouts to find barbarian encampments and use ranged attacks to wear them down before finishing them off with a melee assault.

Having looked at the underlying database, though, I know think it would be simplest to develop the vanguard/skirmisher unit line as a flushed-out recon unit progression. Giving the units a short ranged attack allows them to harass the enemy without sacrificing themselves, and the defense bonuses on the scout's promotion tree will help keep them viable as front-line units.

Instead of upgrading the scout to an existing unit, how about a ranger-like archer unit, maybe called a "Hunter" (Ranged 5, Combat 6). The unit could be visually represented by the same model as the archer, just with fewer individual men, more spread out. Then we could have a crossbow version, a musket version (Skirmisher), Rifleman (Sharpshooter), infantry (Light Infantry), and then the Special Forces.

Upgrading the scouts as horsemen also makes sense, but I think the Vanguard/Skirmisher line is also important as a sort of "foot cavalry" line, giving players without horses a good mediocre substitute. Giving the skirmishers a vulnerability to horse promotion might help balance that out, as well. The Modern Cavalry unit, though, I think should have the same sort of one-range skirmish ability. It should probably be modeled as a recon unit anyway, with recon unit promotions, rather than as a hoofed tank.
 
My main concern about vanguards is the same as many here, that the Ai spammed them.

That was one of my main gripes with GEM, most AI spammed so many of them they were not a threat, I never saw a single tank used late game by an AI and early game hardly saw any horses or swords, just fields and fields of vanguards across half the continent. They were very boring to fight too as they were not really a threat on attack but took many tedious clicks to wear down. I still have nightmares of wading through seas of them toward AI cities taking much longer than I like in mid to lategame conquest.
 
yeah way too many vanguards in GEM.

As it is spearmen/pikes are pretty strong with their advantages versus horsemen/knights. I'd consider weakening the combat strength of spearmen/pikemen but retaining their bonuses versus mounted units. Also, lower their production costs a bit.

Also, the strategic resources are too plentiful in the vanilla game.

Ideally, I'd like military tactics/combat to work like this:

Mounted Units: Strong attacking units. Weaker against cities. Fairly expensive to build.

Strong Melee Units: Good against cities. Strong against units. Fairly expensive to build. Less mobility than mounted units. Slightly lower combat strength than a comparable mounted unit.

Weak Melee Units: Weak against strong melee units. Equal strength to a comparable mounted unit. Cheaper to build.

Archers: Should be fairly weak but hard to kill because they can hide in cities.


Not sure what the combat numbers are right now, but that may mean a slight nerf to spearmen and pikemen. I don't think we need vanguard units.
 
Spears/pikes are probably fine with a modest strength reduction and reducing the innate anti-horse bonus to 25%. For flexibility. Swords would have an innate anti-city bonus.
Swords don't need to be weaker than mounted units. Mobility (and move after attack) is considerable in strength terms.
 
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