Should you be afraid of Hell?

[Borachio]

You really don't know that consciousness ceases on death. (I'd agree that it likely does, or it seems to me that it likely does. But we've nothing to go on, one way or another.)

And how can you be so certain that volcanoes aren't the origin of the hell myth?

Is it purely coincidental that both can be hot, burning places, with rich sulfurous smells?

edit: also, we don't even know what the subjective experience of someone dying is like. So, it may be that consciousness in the last few moments of life could include some "hellish" experiences. We don't need to posit a disembodied consciousness at all (which I'd agree is a problematic idea).

This is tricky stuff, you know. Once you've thought a thought there's really no unthinking it.

 

[thecrazyscot]

No. I'm already right, I want him (and you) to join the the right-team [insert friendly smiley]

But if you're right, why bother? My belief in the existence of hell is irrelevant if it doesn't exist.

 

[El_Machinae]

Let me see if I can get this right.

It doesn't undo the harm, but it satisfies God so she forgives the debt ( = the sin) you owe. Provided, I think, you're suitably repentant and accept Jesus as the only road to salvation.

Is that right?

Well, then you've only gained the forgiveness of one of the aggrieved parties? Both the sin and the stain of that sin still exist.

 

[Lohrenswald]

You really don't know that consciousness ceases on death. (I'd agree that it likely does, or it seems to me that it likely does. But we've nothing to go on, one way or another.)

And how can you be so certain that volcanoes aren't the origin of the hell myth?

Is it purely coincidental that both can be hot, burning places, with rich sulfurous smells?

Conciousness are physical patterns in the brain (very non-scientifically put). These ceases to function after death, and eventually the brain decomposes.

As for the hell myth thing: not every vision of hell includes heat, and frankly I think for example forest fires are a more suitable candidate for explanation.

But if you're right, why bother? My belief in the existence of hell is irrelevant if it doesn't exist.

I think that's a waste of your time and hinders your ability to see clearly or something.

 

[Borachio]

Conciousness are physical patterns in the brain (very non-scientifically put). These ceases to function after death, and eventually the brain decomposes.

As per my edit above: we don't need consciousness to persist after death. We simply don't know (well, certainly I don't know), what the subjective experience immediately before death is like. There may be enough time there for a whole host of hellish experiences.

However, the usual narrative is that the soul is this disembodied consciousness which persists after death. I think it's very unlikely to be true, I'd agree. But again, we simply do not know.

As for the hell myth thing: not every vision of hell includes heat, and frankly I think for example forest fires are a more suitable candidate for explanation.

I'll grant you forest fires are a possible candidate. They don't have the smell of brimstone about them.

And sure, not all hells are hot.

Conventional christian ones surely are.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Conciousness are physical patterns in the brain (very non-scientifically put). These ceases to function after death, and eventually the brain decomposes.

There are "physical patterns in the brain" (feel free to replace that with more scientificy jargon if that's what blows your hair back) and the absence of those patterns may coincide with an accurate assessment that "consciousness has left the building".

But to assert that those patterns are consciousness is a reach.

 

[Lohrenswald]

A painful experience right before death isn't hell, though.

 

[Borachio]

I really, really wouldn't be so sure of that.

 

[Lohrenswald]

A painful experience before death isn't eternal suffering people are judged to by Yahweh after the day of reckoning.

Also Timsupstandingcitizen, what else could conciousness be?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A painful experience right before death isn't hell, though.

But it could easily account for hell myths. Any survival considered "miraculous" could elevate the experiences surrounding it to post mortem myth status.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Also Timsupstandingcitizen, what else could conciousness be?

Beats me. I am not claiming authoritative knowledge of what it is or isn't.

 

[Borachio]

A painful experience before death isn't eternal suffering people are judged to by Yahweh after the day of reckoning.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but again how do you know this?

Even without considerations of pan-dimensionality, I think you're making unwarranted assumptions.

I'm inclined to agree with what you're saying, btw. It makes some sense to me. It's just that we don't have the certainty you seem to be implying here.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but again how do you know this?

Isn't the notion of hell rather clear in most christian peoples minds?

And I don't really have a followup on that, Timsuperduper

EDIT: basically, while other people say hell is unknowable, I say it doesn't exist. It's made up

 

[Borachio]

Yes. They do have this clear notion. As do we all, if we were brought up in a majorly Christian country.

Which is my point: hell could be psychologically very real indeed.

Doesn't that possibility worry you even in the slightest?

 

[Lohrenswald]

Yes. They do have this clear notion. As do we all, if we were brought up in a majorly Christian country.

Which is my point: hell could be psychologically very real indeed.

Doesn't that possibility worry you even in the slightest?

Not really, but that's more because I don't have the resolve to think about such things. I've got enough problems.

Also, since you said we don't have knowledge of the experience of dying, it's kind of silly to propose that it would be known by some shepards in the levant thousands of years ago.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Isn't the notion of hell rather clear in most christian peoples minds?

And I don't really have a followup on that, Timsuperduper

EDIT: basically, while other people say hell is unknowable, I say it doesn't exist. It's made up

The problem with unanswerable questions is that humans just freaking hate them. We demand that everything have an answer. So when we confront them the only thing to do is just make stuff up. "It's this." "It's that." "It's the other thing." "It doesn't exist at all."

Eventually, you have two choices. Grab one made up answer as acceptable to you, or just accept that there are genuine unanswerable questions.

And the very real complication that somewhere among all the made up answers one may just turn out to be right.

 

[Borachio]

Also, since you said we don't have knowledge of the experience of dying, it's kind of silly to propose that it would be known by some shepards in the levant thousands of years ago.

I agree.

I also think it's rather silly to propose we know what it is now.

 

[Lohrenswald]

The problem with unanswerable questions is that humans just freaking hate them. We demand that everything have an answer. So when we confront them the only thing to do is just make stuff up. "It's this." "It's that." "It's the other thing." "It doesn't exist at all."

Eventually, you have two choices. Grab one made up answer as acceptable to you, or just accept that there are genuine unanswerable questions.

I see what you did there (I really want to use a friendly smiley but I hate all of them)

I don't think the nature of concsiousness is a genuinly unanserable question. The same for what happens with it after you die.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I see what you did there (I really want to use a friendly smiley but I hate all of them)

I don't think the nature of concsiousness is a genuinly unanserable question. The same for what happens with it after you die.

So, you posit that your answer is genuine? You do realize that would not be particularly unique, right? (I will spare you the friendly smiley that I would normally use to take any possible sting out of those questions)

 

[Borachio]

I don't think the nature of concsiousness is a genuinly unanserable question. The same for what happens with it after you die.

Does it come down to whether a disembodied consciousness is impossible, then?

How would you demonstrate that it's impossible?