Christian afterlife

[Hygro]

I mean, there was a wolf.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

The boy who cried wolf comes to mind when folks say the end of days are coming. Each time in the past they have been wrong. It reminds me of this:

View attachment 635265

I do realize you have a point. I don't believe I'm uniquely important. I'm just a stupid man. But I do know this:

2 Peter 3:3-4

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 

[El_Machinae]

The presence of scoffers do not predict last days, because scoffers are created by false predictions. As long as there are predictions, there will be scoffers. In fact, predicting scoffers is just classic cult tactics.

Obviously, if the event happens, the previous round of scoffers will have been Incorrect and the previous round of prophets will have been correct, but not in any way that's useful ahead of time.

The best way to increase the number of scoffers is to increase the number of false prophets, or their voice.

It's a bit like economists successfully predicting nine of the last four recessions.

 

[Kyriakos]

There are very many predictions of the end coming within the timeline even of people to whom letters of the apostles were addressed - in other words: statements by the apostles themselves. Usually the way to "explain that away" is that it was also a metaphor, but it does seem suspect.
God is coming unannounced, like a thief in the night etc

Then again, there are people who (according to the text itself, again) died as a direct result of trying to fool the apostles. A couple, famously, because it pledged to give their entire fortune (iirc to the christian community), but only gave half.
Bet they didn't see the(ir) end coming

 

[Angst]

Where you go after death really, really depends on the individual denomination.

Very shortly put, riginal Christianity believed the end of the world to be right around the corner, and that Jesus would take us all to Heaven as it happened.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Having the "end times" now (whenever now is) is motivational for the faithful and beneficial to those preaching at that time. Everyone gets a bump in what they want (faith, community action, donations, more people in the church, etc.) It is a call to action, just like that message on the outside of the direct mail letter that says "Important notice!" or "Act Now!" Urgency is a motivator. If I were to preach that the end was coming in 50 years, well, I suspect that my new followers would be few. And 2000 years of history tells us that "the end" is never near.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yet everyone's always is. You really don't have time. Not much.

Now matters, today is yours. Tomorrow is someone else's.

 

[Plotinus]

Thank you for the translation correction Kyriakos! I will check this with New Testament colleagues. As is probably clear, my Greek is rudimentary.

I do think, though, that it's fair to say that for Paul - at least elsewhere - the believer's crucifixion with Christ is a past event:

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For whoever has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

None of this makes sense if crucifixion is something ongoing for the believer. The idea is that death is a means of escaping the power of sin. Christ died, and through baptism believers become identified with Christ to the extent of sharing his death. This means that believers have also escaped the power of sin. This is a once-for-all event that occurs at baptism. It means that, in the future, believers will also share Christ's resurrection. Thus, later in the same chapter Paul states that "you, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness... now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God". This is clearly a past event. Remember that for Paul "crucifixion" for the believer is not some kind of existential angst or ongoing experience. It is the foundational event that frees people from the dominion of sin and allows them to live in Christ. It wouldn't make sense to draw such a clear contrast between the old life in sin and the new life in Christ if it were something ongoing. So he goes on to say:

...you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

Saying I have been crucified with Christ could mean that I was crucified at one point but not currently. What must I do to maintain my salvation? This is heresy. The bible says there will be many false teachers, but you brethren, do not be deceived.

No, this doesn't make sense. If you've been crucified with Christ it can't become the case that you weren't crucified with Christ, because it's a past event and the past can't be changed. Again, remember that for Paul, this isn't a metaphor. It's an actual event that actually happens to you because of your mystical union with Christ. So it wouldn't be coherent to suppose that it might cease to have happened. Note also that the concept of "maintaining salvation" isn't pauline either. For Paul, salvation is always an event that will occur in the future - it's not a property or condition of a person that persists.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

No, this doesn't make sense. If you've been crucified with Christ it can't become the case that you weren't crucified with Christ, because it's a past event and the past can't be changed. Again, remember that for Paul, this isn't a metaphor. It's an actual event that actually happens to you because of your mystical union with Christ. So it wouldn't be coherent to suppose that it might cease to have happened. Note also that the concept of "maintaining salvation" isn't pauline either. For Paul, salvation is always an event that will occur in the future - it's not a property or condition of a person that persists.

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. I agree with you. My grammar or presentation might have been confusing. But I'm not sure about salvation occurring in the future. I thought once you believed salvation is instant and permanent. Now if you're referring to redemption being a future event, then yes I agree.

 

[Lohrenswald]

No you said that Christians believe they become "angels" when they go to heaven. They don't.

I'm pretty sure I said something about some christians believing that wrongfully. Or that some "christians" believe that. I've been to church and been thought about christianity and live in a "christian" country so in a sense I am a "christian" and I could have believed in the angel thing

anyway again it was a ploy to discredit the opposition

As for bible coherence just because it's only in the revelation book I'm not sold on bodily ressurection not being the "correct interpretation"

if you want to make me look like a fool please go on about that and not the angel thing which I don't really care about

 

[Joij21]

Or that some "christians" believe that.

Well can you prove some Christians believe that?

if you want to make me look like a fool

I'm not sure why you would believe this. Then again text is tone deaf unless smilies are used.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

And the english phrase "ashes to ashes, dust to dust", I really don't understand. I'd dismiss it as some mistranslation. Here the priest says to the person getting buried: "From earth you've come, to earth you shall become, from earth you shall again arise"

I am reminded of Carl Sagan's quote that is summarized as "We are starstuff."

Our entire world and the solar system itself used to be part of ancient stars. This is why I don't fuss too much about death rituals. I'm okay with cosmic recycling.

Noah's ark was a kind of rapture type. The ark represents the Lord Jesus and those who went on the ark did not experience the flood but were rescued from it.

I am trying and failing to see how this makes any sort of chronological sense.

Edit: What does RD and DE mean when you create a thread?

The other two answers only gave you part of the explanation.

There was a time some years ago that some people wanted permission for foreign-language threads, as a way to practice language skills and to let some of the people whose first language isn't English have a thread where they could be linguistically a bit more comfortable.

The staff agreed eventually, with the proviso that there had to be at least one moderator who was fluent enough in that language to be able to moderate it.

DE/Deutsch is one of the languages that was allowed.


As for the RD issue... I really wish the rules would be changed as to what this abbreviation means. "Real Discussion" is something I have always felt to be an insulting designation, implying that the majority of threads in OT, especially the serial threads, are just junk threads a step up from spam, and nothing of any quality or interest gets discussed there.

The original meaning of RD is "Red Diamond" - more strictly-moderated threads that had a red diamond icon next to them, to make it clear that they were intended to be serious discussions with little/no banter, and had to stay on-topic. Obviously we no longer have the red diamond icons, as those got zapped when the forum migrated from vBulletin to XenForo.

If the timescale is Godly, rather than manmade, who is to say the earth rising into the air is not the evaporation of the planet from the sun's expansion? Or something else entirely. Maybe the universe reforms differently. Who knows? Later is specific enough.

Time doesn't care what human beliefs think of it. And when Earth is destroyed, there will be no air for it to rise into.

Mountains don't move? Seas don't rise? Miracles don't walk today when they once did not?

You don't constantly look around and boggle when you take the time to sort out what you're looking at?

Plate tectonics, erosion, climate change, tides... they're all straightforward science.

It takes more "poor" people to move a mountain than lords of men. Sometimes lifetimes of them. There will always be another who wants to be a lord of man. <yawn>

We tamed the grass of the earth. It was not fast. Slaves built the pyramids. Slaves built America.

Slaves did not build the pyramids.

The boy who cried wolf comes to mind when folks say the end of days are coming. Each time in the past they have been wrong. It reminds me of this:

View attachment 635265

What is the source of this?

 

[Farm Boy]

The masters did?

Did they build 'murica, too? My fellow american.
Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. The_J

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The masters did?

Did they build 'murica, too? My fellow american.

The people who built the pyramids were not slaves. They were free, and were paid.

I am not your "fellow american." Please don't take this to Tim-levels of unpleasantness.

 

[Farm Boy]

Bye-bye, as you generally like then, again.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Bye-bye, as you generally like then, again.

Fine, we're done.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am reminded of Carl Sagan's quote that is summarized as "We are starstuff."

To add a quote from elsewhere (and altering it a little) :
"and our little life is rounded with a - death"

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

I am trying and failing to see how this makes any sort of chronological sense.

Well the bible is filled with recurring events that all share a common theme. When God destroyed the world through a flood he instructed Noah, a righteous man, to construct a large boat or ark. The boat would house all of the animals of the world as well as Noah's extended family. They all escaped the destruction of the flood.

When the Tribulation starts, Jesus will catch up all the believers in Him and take them to heaven, thus escaping the Tribulation. Similar to what happened during Noah's day. In fact the apostle Paul writes in the New Testament that just as in the days of Noah, so shall the end times be. (I'm paraphrasing)

 

[El_Machinae]

That was Jesus, er, Jesus being quoted.
If I believe he actually said that with divine knowledge, then I'd say that he's saying that both are mythical events.

Okay, that's a bit snide.
But he does say that no one will know, which means that everyone making predictions are (imo) expressing more hubris than faith, mistaking their personal certainty for communication with God. Everyone who even 'feels' it will be soon is mistaking their own gut for the Spirit. The lesson there is to always be ready. No one knows, not no one but whoever feels special.

Importantly, if there's an admonishment to 'always be ready', then coasting on yesterday's forgiveness makes no real sense. Again, imo.

Edit: I am not a Christian because I don't believe in its god, but the denomination I was raised in had a much more 'difficult' version of Christianity that it followed, compared to what I view to be the various mainstream interpretations. Asking to be forgiven as you forgive is a factor in your cosmology that motivates behavior if you believe it. Also, though I'm atheist, I like it. It's like the story of Job. You cannot be perfect, but you can still create peace. It's up to you to forgive yourself, but it's up to you to also be worthy of forgiveness by others. And, if you're not forgiven, then the 'responsibility' of that failure can be on either party, so the best you can do is trim your own responsibility.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

*Ooops! Thanks for the correction El_Machinae. Yes it was Jesus who said that, not Paul. I'm so embarrassed.