Shuold an Alternate History forum be split from the existing WH?

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Seeing as the two subjects are so often intermixed here, should alternate history and real history threads be separated into different forums? I think this would be the best thing for the science and art of history, to segregate the real history from the alternate. Too many people think of History as being a giant "what if?" question, and that the job of Historians is to ask this question; this is not the case in reality. Historians ask the questions "why" and "how," not "what if." While it may be fun to ponder these things, and to ask the question "what if," the proper student of History never lets this venture beyond the realm of the reasonably predictable, and never forgets that History is a non-linear sequence of events, equally incapable of being predicted as it is of being simplified whilst retaining a reasonable degree of faithfulness to reality. While I have no love for Alternate History, I realize that many do, and that it may have its uses. This is why I propose we separate honest History from Alternate, and acknowledge the fundamental difference between the two.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Subforum i guess, why not, but i fear that both the history and it's subforum if one is made, would have very little posts.

 

[CCA]

How about going to a "real" alternate history forum?

http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/index.php

 

[Knight-Dragon]

It's really up to TF on whether he wants to create a subforum...

There's also the NES subforum if you're really into alt history, although I don't pretend to understand the details of it.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Of course it's up to TF; I never suggested usurping his power. I just thought I'd test the waters before bringing the subject up in SF, where he's more likely to see it.

The close relationship of Alt Hist to NES is one of the reasons I suggested separating it from World History, I just thought it would be less laconic than to just ask them to all be moved to NES.

 

[Sharwood]

I don't believe there should be a seperation, or a sub-forum. Reasons follow.

Why theoretically, having seperate forums for history and alternative history seems like a good idea, I do not belive that such a thing is terribly practical, or necessary. Firstly, the History forum isn't exactly teeming with users as it is. Split it, and you now have two very small forums instead of one small one. Secondly, there are people who manage to post things in the wrong forum as it is. How much extra moderation would be required to switch things from two different history forums? Thirdly, many people with an interest in history also have an interest in alternative history, and vice versa. One of the things that makes alternative history threads interesting, for me, is that people who actually know the real history of an event in far more depth than I do discuss it, pointing out flaws in different theories and assumption.

To sum up, I don't believe a seperate forum or sub-forum for alternative history is needed.

 

[flyingchicken]

All you need is this thread.

 

[Tee Kay]

Naw, the thread gets too messy after a while.

 

[flyingchicken]

That's why we have this.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

How about going to a "real" alternate history forum?

http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/index.php

That's basically telling alternate history fans to get lost; we're not welcome at CFC.

And what is a basic game of Civ BUT alternate history? I certainly don't remember the Aztecs developing nuclear tech, nor the Zulus, for instance...

It's really up to TF on whether he wants to create a subforum...

There's also the NES subforum if you're really into alt history, although I don't pretend to understand the details of it.

The last time somebody started a thread on this topic, it was suggested I check that subforum out. I did, and it's utterly incomprehensible. I have no clue whatsoever what the participants there are talking about.

And I object to the notion that alternate history is not "honest" history. It's at least as important to know why something did NOT happen as it is to know why something DID happen.

 

[flyingchicken]

I check that subforum out

If you want alternate history, don't check out the entire subforum (if you really want to know we're just playing games is all), check out the only thread (threads, if you count the previous threads indexed) that matters for alternate history and its supplementary thread.

 

[joycem10]

I like the althist stuff and usually hit the site mentioned above (as do alot of other posters from here). Im conflicted...

It would be nice to have a seperate subforum for the althist scenarios and such, but given the disdain (snobbery?) that some of the more knowledgeable posters display towards the subject I have the feeling that it would be avoided by those same people... Thereby leaving the althist subforum littered with dumbasses who post crazy scenarios and alien space bat crap with nobody to debunk them. At least when its in the main forum intelligent knowledgeable people glance at it and will slap down the more idiotic crap. Which I do appreciate.

Given that, I guess my vote is no, for whatever its worth.

 

[Dachs]

Strong no vote. Just post in the NES alternate history thread if you have an issue. Ignore the rest of the subforum if you want to - it can get really confusing - but use that thread. Alternatively, make one single thread for alternate history in the WH subforum instead of this nonsense. A whole other subforum is entirely unnecessary and IMHO an administrative waste.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

And I object to the notion that alternate history is not "honest" history.

I object to the notion that alternate history is anything but fantasy. I think it ought to be treated as such.

It's at least as important to know why something did NOT happen as it is to know why something DID happen.

That question is not the same as the "what if" type asked by alternate history, or assumed to be known by its writers. I heartily agree than an exploration of why something did not happen is incredibly important to science of history; I believe I made that clear in the OP. However, there is a very clear difference between this sort of thread/question and this one.

I like the althist stuff and usually hit the site mentioned above (as do alot of other posters from here). Im conflicted...

It would be nice to have a seperate subforum for the althist scenarios and such, but given the disdain (snobbery?) that some of the more knowledgeable posters display towards the subject I have the feeling that it would be avoided by those same people... Thereby leaving the althist subforum littered with dumbasses who post crazy scenarios and alien space bat crap with nobody to debunk them. At least when its in the main forum intelligent knowledgeable people glance at it and will slap down the more idiotic crap. Which I do appreciate.

Given that, I guess my vote is no, for whatever its worth.

Well of course it would be ignored, that's the bloody point.

Strong no vote. Just post in the NES alternate history thread if you have an issue.

Do you mean me, or the althist people?

Ignore the rest of the subforum if you want to - it can get really confusing - but use that thread.

Then why do we have subforums at all? The mods felt the need to separate Science/Technology from Off-Topic, why is this filtering any less justified in principle?

Alternatively, make one single thread for alternate history in the WH subforum instead of this nonsense. A whole other subforum is entirely unnecessary and IMHO an administrative waste.

Ideally, alternate history would be dumped into the NES subforum, but I thought this idea easier to sell.

 

[Dachs]

Do you mean me, or the althist people?

Althist people. There's no point in me telling elitists where to post, eh?

Then why do we have subforums at all? The mods felt the need to separate Science/Technology from Off-Topic, why is this filtering any less justified in principle?

I meant, people who use the NES althisting threads could ignore the rest of the NESing subforum, since apparently some can be confused by the various games going on therein.

Ideally, alternate history would be dumped into the NES subforum, but I thought this idea easier to sell.

Or try to put it into a Stories and Tales?

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Yep. Way too many AH threads (I'm as guilty as anyone)

 

[Taras Bulba]

I don't get why people post alternate reality threads anyway. Its history, you can't change it now... even if you could, you wouldn't know what would happen specifically.

I vote no.

 

[Dachs]

I don't get why people post alternate reality threads anyway. Its history, you can't change it now... even if you could, you wouldn't know what would happen specifically.

I vote no.

Other than the 'wishful thinking' alternate history (like Southerners wishing the CSA didn't die, or Greeks whining about the Eastern Roman Empire, and so on), sometimes a counterfactual is proposed for entertainment or to clarify the importance of any given occurrence. Hell, Gibbon did it, and since so many people seem to take his writings as Holy Writ...

As for 'knowing what would happen specifically', obviously not, but the idea is that outside of inserting 'butterflies' you try to rely on preexisting trends and so forth. Clearly anything could have happened, but the likelihood of most occurrences is rather slim.

 

[Taras Bulba]

Other than the 'wishful thinking' alternate history (like Southerners wishing the CSA didn't die, or Greeks whining about the Eastern Roman Empire, and so on), sometimes a counterfactual is proposed for entertainment or to clarify the importance of any given occurrence. Hell, Gibbon did it, and since so many people seem to take his writings as Holy Writ...

As for 'knowing what would happen specifically', obviously not, but the idea is that outside of inserting 'butterflies' you try to rely on preexisting trends and so forth. Clearly anything could have happened, but the likelihood of most occurrences is rather slim.

I guess it can be slightly entertaining, but I still find the threads kinda' pointless...

I mean... not enough to say "NO MORE ALTERNATIVE REALITY THREADS!!"
just no to the new sub-forum(whatever it would be) dedicated to it

 

[North King]

Just because you don't do it, Cheezy, does not mean that it's not done by serious, lauded historians in nonfiction books all the time.

If you don't like them, ignore them.