Sid avarage start

[Mumpulus]

I didn't read about I. Larkin's blocking scheme until after I played. Luckily, I had the same thought exactly. Read on...

A little plagiarism on The Magnificent Seven, I admit, but I can't resist:

In preferences, I set "Always Renegotiate Deals".

0) 2590BC
Switch Niagara Falls to another warrior. The settler in Salamanca moves NE. I then spot a Spanish border, which is only barely visible in Rat's screenshot, so here's another:

Still not very clear after jpg-ing, but the borders are there. I'm afraid we'll be pushing it a bit with the spot we selected.

I block the southern Japanese, and will allow the settler pair on the mountain to move. We'll found next turn and they'll have wasted their movement.

1) 2550BC
Found Grand River where the settler stands, start a Warrior.

6gpt and 7g will get us WC from Spain, Japan would require an additional 1g. We won't be able to research HBR any faster than in 50 turns if we give up that gpt. WC is only 9 turns away at the current rate, so I hold off on the trade. I think we'll be better off to partially research HBR ourselves and buy the rest of it when we get a good opportunity. I'll get a curragh out for more contacts.

2) 2510BC
Found Allegheny just west of the agreed spot, to stay away from the Spanish. It has the added benefit of being coastal, so I can start a Curragh.

IT
Niagara Falls: Warrior > Warrior

Japan learns Masonry.

3) 2470BC
Moving two warriors to explore a bit.

IT
Salamanca: Warrior > Settler

The Japanese start the Pyramids.

4) 2430BC
New warrior moves north to explore.

IT
Spain learns Writing.

5) 2390BC
Just moving.

IT
Japan asks us to leave. Spain moves a settler pair towards our territory; they'll want to move through.

Grand River: Warrior > Worker

6) 2350BC
Just moving. There seems to be plenty of room to the northwest, but several Japanese and Spanish settler pairs are already heading there.

IT
Settler pairs move into our territory.

Niagara Falls: Warrior > Worker
Allegheny: Curragh > Curragh

7) 2310BC
Japan has a worker, but we can't afford it (and I guess we're not buying workers before 1000BC, even at Sid).

Science down to 60%, WC is due in 1 turn.

IT
Even though we're in their territory again, the Japanese do not ask us to leave.

Warrior Code is in, start on Horseback Riding, due in 23 turns at max research.

8) 2270BC
Spain has HBR already. They're up writing and HBR to the Japanese.

IT
The Spanish start the Oracle.

9) 2230BC
Move warriors in a partially exploratory, partially blocking pattern. There is one Japanese settler pair that got past us via the south, but the others will dance a bit.

IT
A wounded Spanish warrior appears! Barbs are off, right?

Niagara Falls: Worker > Barracks
Grand River: Worker > Warrior

10) 2190BC
Move the warrior out of Salamanca to block; that costs us a turn on HBR because I have to up lux, but it will be worth it. Our first worker would normally mine the tile he just roaded, but since Niagara Falls' 4th shield is corrupted anyway, I move the worker toward Salamanca to mine there, and for extra blockage. Since Niagara Falls has shrunk, I can spare an MP to block even more.

Japan moves first, then Spain; the movements I anticipate are marked in the picture above. The Japanese will have to turn around completely the turn after.

IT
The northern Japanese pair moves to the forest, the rest as predicted. Another Spanish pair comes into view, and a few lone Japanese warriors approaching Grand River.

11) 2150BC
I start a chop at Grand River, due to complete after the current warrior build. MP goes back to Salamanca.

I've left 2 warriors unmoved so we can discuss. I think the southern warrior should go straight south to block the Grand River settler pair, and the other warrior should stay in place. The Niagara Falls settler pair will move into the spot left by our southern warrior because it moves before the Spanish. The Spanish will go for the gap north of Salamanca again. The turn after, we can form a line that extends all the way from Salamanca to Grand River.

Another picture to clarify:

In red the movement I would perform during this turn, in yellow the anticipated reaction of the Japanese, in green the anticipated reaction of the Spanish, in blue the movement I would perform on our next turn, provided the AI moves as anticipated.

I'm hoping the Japanese are at war with the Spanish (I haven't seen any direct evidence, just the wounded Spanish warrior), otherwise we may be looking at a Japanese sneak attack.

MM Notes:
- Salamanca works the forest this turn, and the horses or roaded river grassland next turn. The governor will select the forest upon growth to complete the settler in 2 turns, coordinated with growth (you can test governor choice now by clicking city center).
- Grand River can work a river grassland for additional commerce starting next turn and still get warrior in 3 turns.

Overview picture of the northern lands:

In red additional horses and furs, in blue river mouth and river sources, in green my very ambitious strategic dots to block the north. There is one Japanese settler pair or town in the area where I've put the minimap. The other pairs can be blocked, hopefully for some time.

 

[I. Larkin]

Not sure that we need second Curragh.
As no Barbs first one will make contacts that Spain did.
But looks too late, so second may go clockwise.
We must connect Horses and use Chariot to expore plains at West better and continue expansions. Also we may want some Barracks for Veteran Chariots.

 

[ThERat]

there seems to be a LOT of land west...how to block them??? I think we should get HBR as fast as possible and build up a strike force and ally Spain against Japan while we take out Japan.

 

[Mumpulus]

Even if we get the same contacts as the other AIs, it will still benefit us in tech costs. That's why I thought a second dingy would be good to have. We can switch to something else if we want though.

Not so sure about the chariots anymore. We have explored some as it stands, and have plenty of room to settle visible right now. I think blocking will be more important now. Two warriors will be better for that than one chariot. The most important task will be to produce settlers as fast as possible.

As far as military goes, I would also give up anything we have to get HBR as fast as possible, and go all out on military. If we can take on Japan, we'll be able to block the Salamanca-Satsuma line, which will be the most efficient way of blocking we can get.

Looking back at my settling plan, would it be a good idea to settle dot 2 first, and then dot 1? We can do that in 7 turns; we'll certainly beat Japan and Spain to that spot. If an AI puts a town in between, we should be able to retain cultural dominance that close to our capital? Our curragh will determine if there's anyone else to the northwest.

 

[I. Larkin]

We are agri, so it is priority to settle near fresh water to have food bonus. Red and Yellow dots are good for that. I also slow down Japanise expansion.
I still think that better to have Archer instead of Curraghs. Spain sail north, and AIs knows map better. There is no use to send second Curragh behind first, I think.
Workers work looks a bit Chaotic, I think first we have to irrigate Cow and connect Horses. But OK, let they finish Cut, road and mine, road. But may be we need one more? Fron Grand River, say.
Priority now to keep curtain with Valve in operation and observe forest Cut not to lose schields.

 

[Elear]

Go west, young man

I've got it but I probably won't post any set/save until tommorow, it's a slightly complicated situation and I'm taking the time to understand the whole strategy: but as I see it, we are preventing AIs from settling the west while we attempt to get what we can there? Meanwhile going for HBR so we can connect horses, use MW, and attack Japan with Spain.

 

[Mumpulus]

That's exactly it, Elear.

My reply to I. Larkin's views:
- Green dot 2 is also on the river, and is CxxC with green dot 1 and yellow dot. It does comply better with green dot 3. Either way will be fine though. Settling closer together (CxC diagonally) will provide even more flexibility for defense. My guess is we'll be adjusting our plans anyway to the AI settling pattern.
- The second curragh should go the other way. I wouldn't say we can't use the exploration. I do feel we are very light on military, so that's a good reason to switch to an archer.
- The reason I went for the forest cut first is to get another settler out faster. I think that's what the chop should go to. My other priority was roads to improve our movement. We'll need a lot of it to block the AI.
- I would definitely like another worker very soon, then we can let our towns grow into improved tiles.

I fully agree on the importance of concentrating on curtain and valve. I feel that if there were another AI up north, we would have spotted them by now. That means a lot of land to grab if we play it right.

What about my idea on settling order? If we take red dot instead of green-2, that would become an even safer bet.

 

[ignas]

Some good discussios here. Try blocking AI settlers, settle in the west. Another curragh sounds good (regular archer won't save us if we are attacked that early, early contacts are power on sid) to go in the opposite direction.

It will take some time to get enough military (15-20 MW's and few spears) to go on offensive. We need more workers to improve land fast for better production. Recently founded town near cattle should get a granary for 2 turn workers (to improve land and join to cities occasionaly) or 4 turn settlers (for acquiring more land). Other low corruption/high shield towns should get barracks and military after settler/worker factory is established.

Spain fighting Japan? That's very good

 

[Mumpulus]

Agreed on the granary in Grand River, but let's get some more settlers out first? There isn't much food up north, so it'll be slower to get settlers from there. Salamanca and Niagara Falls should grow a bit before peeling off more settlers and workers. Therefore I'd say 2 quick settlers out of Grand River before the granary.

Spain fighting Japan is probable, but hasn't been verified.

 

[ignas]

Quick Settlers out of Grand River before granary sounds good. We need to settle fast, there simply might be no available land to settle after we finish granary

 

[I. Larkin]

My reply to I. Larkin's views:
- Green dot 2 is also on the river, and is CxxC with green dot 1 and yellow dot. It does comply better with green dot 3. Either way will be fine though. Settling closer together (CxC diagonally) will provide even more flexibility for defense. My guess is we'll be adjusting our plans anyway to the AI settling pattern.
- The second curragh should go the other way. I wouldn't say we can't use the exploration. I do feel we are very light on military, so that's a good reason to switch to an archer.
- The reason I went for the forest cut first is to get another settler out faster. I think that's what the chop should go to. My other priority was roads to improve our movement. We'll need a lot of it to block the AI.
- I would definitely like another worker very soon, then we can let our towns grow into improved tiles.

Red dot 1 turn earlir + control more land in the West center. It is also Cover River tiles with green 3 dot.
I think we may have worker in GR first and then settler with Forest cut. We need road to the West to settle faster. Less turn for settler run is the same as settler earlier. Probably NF may also have worker first and Barrakcs next.
We need Archer for MP and "Just in Case." Curragh may be next.
I think with 7 fpt we may be without Garnary at all.

 

[Elear]

(Still waiting to play my turnset due to discussion)

Here are some of my thoughts:

1) Not big on granary. At the moment we simply need some settlers getting to the west. The delay on the granary would cost us time, and possibly land. We simply have too much to do.
2) Agree on archer here. The fact Spain is seafaring as Larkin pointed out makes me not very enthusiatic about exploration right now.
3) Agree with notion to try to get roads to the west, then fill in more infrastructure with our workers.
4) To do this, need more workers.
5) Agree with tighter build in the west, creating a line of cities and building behind them to fill out the "empire".
6) When you are settling frontier like this, I find it is indeed useful to go for the further city spots first (although you don't want to stretch out too far). This allows you to "fall back" on closer ones if the AI arrives.
7) Therefore I would like to go red dot, then green #1, then somewhere near green #3 (hopefully with some roads by then to assist movement). Then there would be room, perhaps, for another city on that western river at CXXC spacing. After that it would simply be placing cities where seems appropriate in the land behind the river and to the NW of Salamanca.

 

[I. Larkin]

then green #1, then somewhere near green #3 (hopefully with some roads by then to assist movement). Then there would be room, perhaps, for another city on that western river at CXXC spacing. After that it

I think after Red Dot we will have time for discussion. Next Settler will not be that soon and anyway not in the position after your 10 turns.

 

[Mumpulus]

1) I think we all agree on this one
2) We seem to be divided on this one; since you're playing, you get to choose
3) Yes, but keep a few workers to make sure our towns grow into improved tiles as much as possible; also have to hook up the horses some time soon.
4) Yes, but I'd keep at least 2 town at a larger size to start producing military in earnest.
5) I think we can all agree to that
6) Agreed
7) Agreed

Go Elear

 

[I. Larkin]

5) I think we can all agree to that

Just for record: me not. I think we have to settle the way to make AI settelment more difficult. I think everybody know empirical "rule" AI does not settel in 5x5 square if our City in the center of this square. Note, that soon spain will have MM and will try to steal our sugar.

 

[Elear]

Ok, I fully understand this now. Playing today.

 

[Rodent]

Lurker's Comment: you seem to have a lot of land to settle, if you can keep the AI Settlers away, you should have a decent Empire. Contacts are always useful, So i must advocate scouting a lot.

I like the spot NW of Green dot 3, it gets you horses and is on the river.

Please dont mind if these are newbie comments

 

[Elear]

Thanks for the input Rodent, but I think the problem with that spot is too wide of spacing though, and green dot 3 as is gets horses and river as well.

 

[Elear]

Rough turn notes:

(0) - Blockade movement, check tiles, Allegheny Curragh -> Archer.
IT: AI moves as expected, Japan/Spain warconfirmed (Japan defeats a Spanish warrior).
(1) - Switch around tiles as needed, Science -> 90%, Luxury -> 10% (to prevent riots).
IT: All settler pairs get discouraged by nice strong blockade and turn away.
(2): Salamanca picked up the forest as predicted...Settler -> Barracks. Despite my luxury move, Allegheny riots anyway. Fix riot.
IT: Japan trying to sneak around south of the blockade.
(3): Grand River Warrior -> Settler. Fix blockade to slow Japan more.
IT: Forest chopped, lots of AI moves, Niagara Falls riots (still trying to figure out how this was overlooked). Spain completes the Pyramids.
(4): Allegheny Archer -> Settler. Science -> 80%, Luxury -> 20%.
IT: French complete the Oracle, England completes Statue of Zeus, settler pairs keep playing this funnel of deception game......
(5): Meet the MASSIVE Russian civ with curragh, they have a lot of cities, that's for sure....can't trade. Grand River Settler -> Barracks.
IT: I have a chokehold on 4 Spanish settler pairs who keep biting my bait.
(6): Found red dot -- Cattaraugus, as it shall be called. Start on worker.
IT: Furs online.
(7): Meet Persians by the Russians, seems they got the short end of the stick. Science -> 90%, Luxury -> 10%.
IT: Harder to keep the blockade up, Japan making progress against me in the south.
(8): Re-organize the southern blockade, giving Japan temporary ground.
IT: Nothing important
(9): Niagara Falls Barracks -> Worker. Grand River Barracks -> Settler. Science -> 80%, Luxury -> 20%.
IT: Spanish building Lighthouse. Japan finally gets a settler pair through to Satsuma, Spain still frustrated.
(10): Blockade adjustment

Save + screenshots: I'll post ASAP, tired now.

 

[I. Larkin]

Nice turns, Elear, but where is the save?