Sid Domination Game for AnthonyIII

[AnthonyIII]

Hmm... I should have gone back and checked if it was temples and aqueducts or markets and aqueducts. That's why I was unsure of the temple myself in 001, but it shouldn't have built a market either, but workers. So, I do understand the meaning of temples, it's just that since I thought you said temples - I just went with it without thinking twice.

Aha, two deals pr turn, I will remember that.

What I meant by the "go obsolete" comment, and I should have chosen other words, was that if we're going to war a lot with riders, isn't the tech pace so fast that riders become obsolete very fast and meet muskets/rifles? Or is it so that because the tech pace is so fast the AI will not have time to build that many muskets? I guess since we're going to bring in a lot of trebuchets and later artillery we would be good. That wonders don't go obsolete in terms of culture, I've learned some time ago where you and others replied to me.

Hmm... I think since you've had doubts about continuing two times already - and I will make mistakes again - I think it's best if we put this on the shelf for some time and maybe we can start a new SG when I've improved my playing. University and my work starts now aswell so less civ-time. As I wrote in one of the PM's to you, I've never won domination on higher levels than Demigod, so for me to master Sid was maybe a bit too much for me. I also see that my somewhat reckless and not very considerate moves will not be forgiven at Sid level, as they would in Demigod and below.

I do have some questions though.

If we had continued:

1. Who would've most likely been our first target?
2. When would the unit-production have started?
3. Which improvements would our core cities have before unit-pruduction and which improvements would've been put in later? Like banks etc.
4. Our first war, what is a large enough stack of Riders and trebuchets? Hard to say I know, but ca amount?
5. What do our main core do the turns we've taken out, say 3 rivals, and are in control of the game? Keep on pumping units or build infrastructure?
6. If I was to play around with this game a bit to try and learn more, is there something I haven't mentioned in the questions above I should know?

You've already learned me a lot Spoonwood, and I think I've been a little distracted when playing and have made mistakes uncommon even for me. Though I wish you had written the part about me beeing slow in a PM!

Anyway, thank you so much for your help so far and I hope you can answer my questions.

 

[Spoonwood]

What I meant by the "go obsolete" comment, and I should have chosen other words, was that if we're going to war a lot with riders, isn't the tech pace so fast that riders become obsolete very fast and meet muskets/rifles? Or is it so that because the tech pace is so fast the AI will not have time to build that many muskets?

You just fight riders against muskets. You'll have that anyways. They haven't gone obsolete. You'd bring more artillery and move slower if you have riders vs. rifles, but usually I've had Military Tradition then, or near that time, and you use any armies you have carefully. People have beaten Deity and Sid well behind in tech. The AIs don't upgrade all that much, so you don't just fight the most advanced defensive units. You can also use explorers and/or armies to pillage their resources.

1. Who would've most likely been our first target?

I don't know exactly, but we probably wouldn't have wanted to attack Sumeria. Russia had a border city, but I don't know if that connected to the rest of their empire. We might have also gotten someone farther away (or declared war on them) to declare on us, and then signed Sumeria in against them. Then after 10 or so turns, *then* we would strike at Sumeria. This way, they're emptied out their core cities of a significant number of their units.

Edit: We might have attacked Russia to trigger our GA, allied Sumeria against them, and then hit Sumeria 10 or so turns after that.

2. When would the unit-production have started?

I generally go aqueducts-markets-trebuchets. Then once a city has 10 shields (or will in 1 or 2 turns), it goes barracks, horse-knights or horse-cavalries. So, basically as soon as we could complete markets.

3. Which improvements would our core cities have before unit-pruduction and which improvements would've been put in later? Like banks etc.

Banks could come before, but I think they best come in the middle of one of the wars... if you even want them at all, which I'm not so sure. The value of banks depends on how many units you have to upgrade/armies you have to buy once the banks complete. This gets tricky to evaluate in my opinion. No other improvements than aqueducts and markets really (maybe some cash-rushed granaries). Courthouses in some areas also, but only a few.

4. Our first war, what is a large enough stack of Riders and trebuchets? Hard to say I know, but ca amount?

If fighting one of the weaker opponents, just enough to take a border city. They have at least 3 defensive units and maybe 1 or 2 offensive units in that city perhaps. So, say 15 riders, and 6 trebuchets (though you might have more trebuchets) should come as enough in pretty much any situation. That said, I'd put in trebuchets first, so that if a city has barracks it'll build veteran units instead of trebuchets or cannons. Once you have barracks in, you want to use those barracks since they cost gpt (with Korea, since you can get leaders with the H'wacha, you might want to do things differently). You also might want more force say with America or some tribe you can't trigger a GA as soon as, or near to when, you fight your first war.

5. What do our main core do the turns we've taken out, say 3 rivals, and are in control of the game? Keep on pumping units or build infrastructure?

Units. In a domination game, you might start pumping out settlers (unless you capture the Temple of Artmetis, though I didn't want us to do that here) to get your territory up... though mainly captured towns can do that.

Though I wish you had written the part about me beeing slow in a PM!

Sorry about that.

 

[AnthonyIII]

No worries. Great, thanks a lot Spoonwood! I think I'll try to practice a bit on this game. If I against all odds should finish it or win it, I will post here!

 

[Spoonwood]

4. Our first war, what is a large enough stack of Riders and trebuchets? Hard to say I know, but ca amount?

Edit what I said above. With this map, I think we would have wanted a large stack... maybe 50 some riders, as we'd either have to sign an RoP or take on Sumeria first. That might come as a bit high, but I think we'd have wanted more than 10-15 to take them on. Korea did lie on the continent. I played some just to see what things would look like... note that I got a bunch of cities to ten shields per turn (and the capital could get there soon enough also), which makes things better. Some of the barracks cities (the ones closer to our borders) could go as trebuchets for a bit also.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Wow, that is funny, I also played until 630BC before I went to bed last night! Interesting to compare... I see that I've been thinking somewhat like you, I just don't have as good results as you. I have banking, you have gunpowder. All of my cities are from size 6 to 9 and 011 is size 3. You have more 10 and 11 cities, and two more cities than me producing 10 or more shields. It will be 1 more the next turn. I cleared that last jungle outside 005, therefore I can't get 005 to 10 sheilds.You have more than a thousand more gold than me, that's because I bought a lot of buildings. Markets, aqueducts, a temple and some barracks. You have more income than me, I have 376 gpt, you have 445 gpt. We both have 4 workers on the iron hill. However, I have not started to upgrade Horses yet, and only have 1 horse where you have two trebs, 3 riders, 1 explorer and 1 horse. We both have the lux at 10%. I was thinking of starting to build lots of horses and trebs now. I also think it's a good idea what you said earlier, to attack the russian city to start the GA and then go for Sumeria. How do you get them to declare on you if already in an aliiance with you?

 

[Spoonwood]

Interesting to compare... I see that I've been thinking somewhat like you, I just don't have as good results as you. I have banking, you have gunpowder.

Actually, I think you have the better result here. The sooner the AIs get banking, the earlier they get richer. Oh, and Russia has gunpowder.

All of my cities are from size 6 to 9 and 011 is size 3. You have more 10 and 11 cities, and two more cities than me producing 10 or more shields. It will be 1 more the next turn. I cleared that last jungle outside 005, therefore I can't get 005 to 10 sheilds.

I was adding in workers in some spots. But, some of your cities can still produce 10 shields with alternate tile selection. 005 can also get to 10 spt with a forest (as I suspect you saw in my save). Didn't you see a forest in my save? I also see you have 008 putting up barracks... but it only has 2 spt. Do you really want to put out horses-riders, horse-knights from there (I guess it does come as in the back, so there does exist some possible logic here) or would trebuchets work better? Why the temples? Also, 009 isn't going to grow anymore, so why a granary there? Also, note that 007 could have one more flood plain with a temple.

How do you get them to declare on you if already in an aliiance with you?

That doesn't change anything. To get someone to declare on without units in your territory you can proceed as follows:





Then you disconnect and they declare on you.

Then I might do something like this:



Then when I disconnect the trade route (I didn't get Sumeria's gpt there, and I wasn't ready to declare on Russia... I just did this as an example) I no longer have to pay for the MA with Sumeria against Russia.

See here for a possible alternate tile selection:

 

[AnthonyIII]

Wow, thanks a lot Spoonwood. I have to admit I was playing last night and looked through your Huge Mayan Histograph-thread to find this info! I should have just checked this thread. I saw a forest, yes, I should put up one. Will check out your save later. I have played a bit and in 200AD I'm strong to everyone except Greece. Sumeria is done for and I'm going for Russia now. They have only six cities and I plan to engange them in a distant war. However, I did lose our/my spices because I forgot to reconnect on the last turn and they were gone the next. Greece has really taken over as the powerhouse with 280+gpt available and tech leader. However, I can not use them for anything at the monent. If I can get my hands on some resource they have 0 of and trade for it, maybe-as I've been reading about in your Maya thread. And you were right about having to strike with overwhelming force on Sid... On my first attempt I went to war with 40 cavs and 10 trebs/cannons. Took 5 cities, then stalled. I did not sign anyone in on them, I thought it was enough with their units over in Korea. However, they made peace with Korea and so they're units returned home before I was done warring. I restarted from 630BC and this time I signed The Byzantines and Russia in on them. I took 10 cities in 8 turns and never saw their huge stack as the Russians and the Byzantines cut them off while they were returning home from Korea. I also pillaged as you suggested, so they did not build any offensive units. This is a lot of fun, but very time consuming. I hope I can get my first win on Sid, but we'll see. I've learnt a lot from reading your Maya-thread and what you've written here, Spoonwood - I'm very glad you still take an intererest and let other players learn from you.

 

[Spoonwood]

Any saves for us AnthonyIII?

If someone has 0 extra of a resource/luxury, and you have that resource/luxury, and you want to go to war with them, you can gift them the cities next to the resource/luxury with a unit parked outside it. Then you trade for that resource/luxury in the peace deal (this all happens on the same turn). Then you cut the trade route, and they declare. Then you retake that city (or cities).

If they don't have a resource/luxury and have an extra resource/luxury (2 sources or more total), so long as you give them your cities, you can again trade and get them to declare on you.

Of course, it works best to give all too corrupt cities instead of core cities.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Hmm... That's clever Spoonwood and I used it once, against Sumeria! So... In 790 AD I managed to win this game. I didn't take much notes while playing but I'll write what I remember.

1. Sumerian War: This war lasted 10 turns and was actually the toughest one I had to fight. I got them to declare on me by using the trade trick described above by Spoonwood. I wanted to start my GA on this war, so I parked 4 riders outside of Kisurra, actually the only riders I used in the whole game as I delayed this war until Military Tradition and upgraded all my riders. I also had parked stacks of 3 cannons and 7-8 cavs outside their 5 border cities. I took those on the same turn. As also described above I did lure the Sumerians into war with Korea who was far away. When their units where returning home they got slaughtered by the Russians and The Byzantines who I had signed in on the war. I slowly worked my way through their territory. They managed to take 3 Byzantine cities, which delayed their death a bit - since theese cities were some distance away. I did not not get a single MGL this war. I had some 50 cavs and 20 cannons at this stage. I ended with 85 cavs, 27 cannons and 12 armies. I did lose my spices from Russia somewhere in here, so I could not get gpt from Russia anymore which had me worried but it worked out. Faced muskets.

2. Russian War. A quick war, over in two turns as I re-arranged my units and parked enough units around their cities to take one half of them on turn, then the next turn I destroyed them. Got one MGL! Faced pikes and knights.

3. The Byzantine War. Lasted from 380AD-410AD(three turns) and they had 6 cities on our landmass and another 5-6 cities on another island and another two on a third island. They had pikes for a very long time, then when I was ready they got muskets. This was pretty easy though and not much to write about. I did screw up my disconnect-reconnect for good here, because my deal with Babylon for wine was ending and I had captured wines outside Kish in former Sumeria. I tried to disconnect/reconnect and did not understand why I could not get Babylon's "luxuries" text to show up in the trade screen when connected only in grey when road not connected. I think it was because they could not offer me anything. So from around 420 or something I had to manage without money from the AI. It went OK because I captured wonders and had so many cities, all luxes and did not research.

4. The Greek War. Theese guys were strong to me but now I had armies. After taking the first 4-5 cities in one turn, I signed Germany in on them. Their geography was perfect for me because their 10 cities were separated from eachother by a 2-3 tile chokepoint. So they had 5 cities close to me and then another 5 behind that cokepoint. I blocked off the chokepoint so they could not send in reserves with armies and let the german forces coming in from the left take care of the greece stacks not attacking my armies while I took their cities. I then continued into their territoty using my armies as shield for my cavs. Now I was sure I could win this game. Took the rest of their cities, it took some turns because of movement. I faced rifles now.

5. The Korean War. Finished off 4-5 Korean cities in a turn or two, I can't remember. Pikes.

6. The German War. I knew I was winning this so here I got a pencil and made some notes. The war started in 740AD. I took Varna, which had 2 rifles. Chalcedon, 3 rifles. Pyonsang, 2 rifles. Pyonsang, 2 holy rifles. Inch'on, 2 rifles 1 cav. Bremen, 2 rifles one cav. Got MGL.

750AD: I took Heidelberg, 3 rifles. Hamburg, 4 rifles 1 cav. Cleared out roaming german cavs.

760: Took Trebizond, 3 rifles inside.

770: Re-took Leipzig and Bremen. Took München, which had 3 rifles and 1 cav.

780: Took Stuttgart, 3 rifles. Took Koeningsberg, 3 rifles, 1 cav. Took Berlin and here I gave up counting garrisons, but I came with 27 cannons and 3 armies and 7 cavs. Took Cologne, 4 rifles.

790: "You have reached a domination victory!"

Sweet. I must admit that from 300AD and out I totally neglected my core and just built cavs, workers and settlers and the captured cities just built whatever. I should have been more accurate with my railing and had lots more workers once Steam Power got in. I have a lot to learn regarding how to be good at both looking after my core and fighting. I also did not stay back to quell resistance, I just moved on fighting. So in 780AD, Sumerian cities were still resisting. Have you got some tips on how to quell resistance effectivly Spoonwood? If you're reading this. Or anyone else? I think I warred OK, but after 300AD I admit micro-management were non-excistent. If you're reading this Spoonwood, do you micro-manage when in war and when you feel you're winning or do you just attack, attack, attack? If someone else has some tips, please speak up! Oh, and since this was my first attempt at Sid there was some re-loading when I made silly mistakes. In retrospect I really should have reloaded so I could continued to get spices from Russia and wine from Babylon, since this was about learning about the disconnect/reconnect. I feel OK to not have used this trick the whole way though and it seems this trick is most important until you have 80 cavs and Steam Power!

I could not have managed this without Spoonwood's help and guidance and again you help players like me to improve their playing and allthough you did get frustrated at times, please note that I was really trying to do as you said and just needed a bit more time with the game than others maybe! In Sid I feel the turns until 10AD is the worst, so to have you play the early stages with me was really of tremendous help, Spoonwood. Now I might be confident enough to try Deity alone from the start!

The saves: 380 - Byzantine War. 530-Greek invasion. 790-victory. Feel free to comment Spoonwood.

Come to think of it, I have some questions.

1. I never saw the huge stacks of incoming units from enemies. I've seen in SirPleb's Sid games and Spoonwood's Sid games stacks of 40-50. Here I could win at Sid with 85 cavs, 27 cannons and 10 armies. Isn't that a bit low? Was I lucky? Or was it because I always sent the target AI to a war far away that saved me? Because I must admit, when going to war against Sumeria the first time and not allying Russia and the Byzantine I did see a stack of 17 knighs approaching... Ahh, wait... Bigger maps?

2. Does the AI never upgrade?

 

[Spoonwood]

First off congrats AnthonyIII!

Checking out your saves I see you left some units behind in your cities once you had rails up. Before rails in case some stray unit lands on you this might make sense. But, I don't see why, in a Republic you would do this when you have rails up.

It looks like you hand-built the Military Academy in 003. But, of the 12 tiles it seems to have worked, you only had 2 of those railed throughout the entire game! So, you could have gotten more production towards the Military Academy and armies by railing here. If you decide you'll only "micromanage" one city in a game, and you put the Military Academy in a core city, then "micromanage" the city where you put the Military Academy. Unless I've missed it also, it seems like you didn't cash-rush armies. You can buy a worker, then before clicking out of the city, swap to an army and spend a total of 1640 gold on an army every turn. Or in a 1 shield city buy an army every other turn for 1596 gold. You also didn't build the Pentagon. Even if you end up going with 3 cavalry armies, you want the Pentagon, since it increases the attack power of your armies (I read this in SirPleb's thread). Also, in a game like this, especially against rifles, you might want 4 cavalry armies.

Regarding workers... I can see in the 380 AD you still stack sets of workers on unroaded squares!

Have you got some tips on how to quell resistance effectivly Spoonwood?

Don't try to quell any resistance until you eliminate the target AI, because of the possibility of flips and losing units. Once you have eliminated the target AI, any unit with attack/defense will quell exactly 1 resistor. A 3 cavalry army will quell 3 resistors I believe not 4. So, take Ur in your 380 AD save, which has 4 resistors. If you park a 3 cavalry army there and a veteran cavalry those 4 resistors will quell. Or you could park 4 vets. Now that said, you don't necessarily want to park any old units there, and it gets a little more complicated in terms of good strategy here.

A city can actually grow faster if it stays in resistance in some situations. You only need to feed citizens NOT resisting, and you never need to feed resistors. So, a city like Ur with 6 citizens not resisting, only needs (6x2)=12 food per turn at size 10, instead of 20 fpt if it had no resistors. So, if the tiles aren't well-developed in general in terms of irrigation and railroads, cities can grow faster with some resistors.

However, if you have more tiles irrigated and railroaded available, it might grow faster without any resistors. Also, of note here you can't cash-rush or pop-rush anything until you have no resistors. In terms of score, AFAIK, you don't get any points for resistors, only for content and happy citizens. For the last two reasons, in my current histographic game, I've basically quelled all resistors after eliminating an opponent. If the AIs put a courthouse/police station there also, more total commerce can get you more uncorrupted commerce.

That all said, whenever you choose to quell resistance for whatever reason, you generally don't want to use strong attack units that could go out into the fields and attack. So, what units do you use? Well, your armies, and other units will need to heal. So, you'll do well to combine healing with quelling of resistance. Now, how do you do that?

Well, so long as a unit hasn't lost any of its movement points... which translates into its ball looking green instead of yellow, it can heal in your territory. So, if say you have a 1/4 cavalry on a rail at the start of the turn (or you build the rail underneath the cavalry before you move it on that turn), and say you have Ur on the other side of the planet, and you won't lose any movement points by moving it to Ur (if you use "g" it reads "0" when you point the cavalry towards Ur). So, you can place that 1/4 cavalry in Ur and have it heal in Ur and quell resistance at the same time. If Ur has barracks, that 1/4 cavalry heals fully, and if not, it'll just go to 2/4, of course. Thus, whether it makes sense to have that 1/4 cavalry heal there or somewhere else will depend on whether the city has barracks or not... and of course... getting Sun Tzu's can help here.

In short, try to combine full healing with resistance quelling.

If you're reading this Spoonwood, do you micro-manage when in war and when you feel you're winning or do you just attack, attack, attack?

That depends on several factors.

In retrospect I really should have reloaded so I could continued to get spices from Russia and wine from Babylon, since this was about learning about the disconnect/reconnect.

From the saves it looks like you messed up your reputation at some point. I'm not exactly sure what happened here. You have to make sure NOT to export any resources or luxuries to the AIs during the game, or declare war on an AI when you send gpt to them (only have them declare war on you in such a case).

1. I never saw the huge stacks of incoming units from enemies. I've seen in SirPleb's Sid games and Spoonwood's Sid games stacks of 40-50. Here I could win at Sid with 85 cavs, 27 cannons and 10 armies. Isn't that a bit low? Was I lucky? Or was it because I always sent the target AI to a war far away that saved me? Because I must admit, when going to war against Sumeria the first time and not allying Russia and the Byzantine I did see a stack of 17 knighs approaching... Ahh, wait... Bigger maps?

It comes as hard to say. Map size has something to do with it, but no doubt having the AIs attack someone else first helps.

2. Does the AI never upgrade?

I don't know exactly. It gets hard to determine the AIs behavior at times. I think they do upgrade, though not all that much.

 

[AnthonyIII]

I actually MGL rushed the Pentagon and I did buy armies - did not know about the worker trick though - I waited 1 turen, then bought the army for around 1500g. I bought 4 armies. Yes, I should have built the Pentagon but I really felt the would be over before the Pentagon would be finished - or can I MGL rush the Pentagon as well? I think that's why the workers were on unroaded squares as well, because I was winning and got lazy. But I played much better with my workers until 2-300AD thanks to you! Brilliant notes on quelling resistance there. Will make much use of it. Now I want to try Sipahi's...

 

[Spoonwood]

You can MGL rush all small wonders, including the Pentagon and the Military Academy and the Heroic Epic (though I'd recommend hand building the latter usually). 4 armies bought, but you had 10,000 some gold at the end of the game.

 

[templar_x]

If Ur has barracks, that 1/4 cavalry heals fully, and if not, it'll just go to 2/4, of course.

that should read 3/4, right?

as always, some excellent write-up.

t_x

 

[Spoonwood]

that should read 3/4, right?

as always, some excellent write-up.

t_x

Huh? I thought that if you don't have barracks in a city, a unit will only heal 1 hp per turn... though I could have gotten that wrong.

Thanks for the compliment!

 

[Spoonwood]

I actually MGL rushed the Pentagon and I did buy armies - did not know about the worker trick though - I waited 1 turen, then bought the army for around 1500g. I bought 4 armies. Yes, I should have built the Pentagon but I really felt the would be over before the Pentagon would be finished - or can I MGL rush the Pentagon as well? I think that's why the workers were on unroaded squares as well, because I was winning and got lazy. But I played much better with my workers until 2-300AD thanks to you! Brilliant notes on quelling resistance there. Will make much use of it. Now I want to try Sipahi's...

I'll mention that if you can win two battles in one turn, you get a promotion automatically. So, if you play as Russia with cossacks, and use your cannons well, I feel sure you can get a fair amount of elites fairly quickly.